The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you’re going to have a shadow cast over you when the sun overheats and there’s an earthquake leveling things, people all around you are gonna be crying rocks falling us, and hide us from the wrath of him to come per Rev chapter 6?

Let's put your hyper-literalism to the test and see if that is the right approach to interpreting the highly symbolic book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If the stars of heaven literally fall unto the earth, then the earth would be annihilated. Do you understand that? That can't be taken literally. Also, if "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together" literally, then that would destroy all life on earth as well. That can't be taken literally. Also, can "every mountain and island" be literally moved out of their places without destroying the earth? How could only every mountain and island be literally moved out of their places without affecting the rest of the earth or without everything else on earth also being moved out of their places which would result in the destruction of the entire earth? This also can't be taken literally. Yet, you do so, anyway. You need to rethink your understanding of this passage as well as the rest of the book of Revelation because your understanding of the book of Revelation contradicts the rest of scripture and your interpretation of Revelation 6 also contradicts the idea that life on earth could continue if those things described there literally happened.

Oh, and are we supposed to believe that people will literally be telling the mountains and rocks to fall on them? No. That's ridiculous. It's symbolic text. If the mountains and rocks literally fell on them they obviously would all die, but it describes them as wanting the mountains and rocks to hide them "from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb". It's all symbolic.

 

[Brakelite]

Are any of you post tribbers going to lend a hand to those that are dying all around you? When God feeds you and gives you water and shelter from the sun and they’re perishing and they’re in heat you’re not gonna let them in your spirit bunker?
So are you gonna rescue them from God‘s wrath? Are you gonna plug your ears and sing louder as the train going to the concentration camp did to the Jews and the German people just let it happen?
Will you refuse to take the sinners in and tell them “my 4 and no more?”

It would do no good to help anyone. It will be too late. Their fate and their destiny is sealed in that they accepted the mark.
KJV Revelation 16:5-11
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Brakelite]

So you’re going to have a shadow cast over you when the sun overheats and there’s an earthquake leveling things, people all around you are gonna be crying rocks falling us, and hide us from the wrath of him to come per Rev chapter 6? How about everybody else, are millions of shadows going to be cast over them? Every believer gonna be subject to seeing all of their loved ones perishing around them and they just walk in the rubble for seven years? Are they gonna also get Manna from heaven? Is this what you’re advocating for Christians during the wrath of God?
Water from a rock? Horrible famines on earth and your endless supply of food cannot be given for relief to those under wrath? Is this what you’re advocating for Christians to expect during the wrath of God? It easier to let the rapture happen to them first and escape wrath like Noah, Enoch, Lot etc?

And after the great earthquake levels everything, and the resulting tsunami destroys the islands of the sea, and mountains are cast down like broken pretzels, (Revelation 16:20) and hail weighing up to 60-70 lbs destroys everything left, you really believe there will be anyone left alive to "enjoy" the so called millennial kingdom? Or there is any habitable land left to build on after nuclear fallout and devastating of world war 3?

 

[Brakelite]

Let's put your hyper-literalism to the test and see if that is the right approach to interpreting the highly symbolic book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If the stars of heaven literally fall unto the earth, then the earth would be annihilated. Do you understand that? That can't be taken literally. Also, if "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together" literally, then that would destroy all life on earth as well. That can't be taken literally. Also, can "every mountain and island" be literally moved out of their places without destroying the earth? How could only every mountain and island be literally moved out of their places without affecting the rest of the earth or without everything else on earth also being moved out of their places which would result in the destruction of the entire earth? This also can't be taken literally. Yet, you do so, anyway. You need to rethink your understanding of this passage as well as the rest of the book of Revelation because your understanding of the book of Revelation contradicts the rest of scripture and your interpretation of Revelation 6 also contradicts the idea that life on earth could continue if those things described there literally happened.

Oh, and are we supposed to believe that people will literally be telling the mountains and rocks to fall on them? No. That's ridiculous. It's symbolic text. If the mountains and rocks literally fell on them they obviously would all die, but it describes them as wanting the mountains and rocks to hide them "from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb". It's all symbolic.

No, it is no more symbolic than the plagues that came upon Egypt, which were a type of the reality of the plagues that will come you those who receive the mark and worship the beast. And Israel (spiritual in our time) will be protected both times. The 4 angels will release their hold on the 4 winds, and Satan will be left to do what he has wanted to do since Eden. Destroy God's s people. He will fail. They will be protected. How exactly we aren't told, but what we know of the character of God and what we can testify to throughout our lives, and what David said in his Psalms, He can be trusted to watch out for us, but yes, we will be witnesses to the end.

 

[Brakelite]

Let's put your hyper-literalism to the test and see if that is the right approach to interpreting the highly symbolic book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If the stars of heaven literally fall unto the earth, then the earth would be annihilated. Do you understand that? That can't be taken literally. Also, if "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together" literally, then that would destroy all life on earth as well. That can't be taken literally. Also, can "every mountain and island" be literally moved out of their places without destroying the earth? How could only every mountain and island be literally moved out of their places without affecting the rest of the earth or without everything else on earth also being moved out of their places which would result in the destruction of the entire earth? This also can't be taken literally. Yet, you do so, anyway. You need to rethink your understanding of this passage as well as the rest of the book of Revelation because your understanding of the book of Revelation contradicts the rest of scripture and your interpretation of Revelation 6 also contradicts the idea that life on earth could continue if those things described there literally happened.

Oh, and are we supposed to believe that people will literally be telling the mountains and rocks to fall on them? No. That's ridiculous. It's symbolic text. If the mountains and rocks literally fell on them they obviously would all die, but it describes them as wanting the mountains and rocks to hide them "from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb". It's all symbolic.

It isn't just Revelation that warns of such destruction.
KJV Isaiah 24:20
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

KJV Hebrews 12:25-27
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

KJV Jeremiah 4:23-28
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

KJV Jeremiah 25:15-33
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 Then took I the cup at the LORD'S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:
18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people;
20 And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod,
21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon,
22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea,
23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners,
24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert,
25 And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes,
26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.
28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, it is no more symbolic than the plagues that came upon Egypt, which were a type of the reality of the plagues that will come you those who receive the mark and worship the beast. And Israel (spiritual in our time) will be protected both times. The 4 angels will release their hold on the 4 winds, and Satan will be left to do what he has wanted to do since Eden. Destroy God's s people. He will fail. They will be protected. How exactly we aren't told, but what we know of the character of God and what we can testify to throughout our lives, and what David said in his Psalms, He can be trusted to watch out for us, but yes, we will be witnesses to the end.

Stars literally falling to earth would completely annihilate the earth. That is a fact. I don't know why you are taking it all literally, but you are mistaken. What do you make of Jesus saying that people will be doing their normal activities right up until He comes (Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30)? How do you reconcile what Jesus said with your belief that complete physical chaos and destruction will be occurring just before He comes?

 

[Truther]

Why do you take the book of Revelation so literally? How does your understanding of earthquakes and plagues being a sign that the end is at hand line up with what Jesus taught here:

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

It seems like you have those things as indicating that the end is at hand, but Jesus said those "things must come to pass, but the end is not yet". We've had two world wars and many other wars and many earthquakes and such just in the past 100 years or so, but that obviously didn't mean the end of the age was at hand. Jesus said those things are only "the beginning of sorrows", so why do you (seemingly) have them as the ending of sorrows instead?

Whenever you interpret any passage of scripture that causes you to contradict other scripture, you need to reconsider how you are interpreting that scripture. You need to think about what type of book Revelation. It was purposely "signified" (Rev 1:1), which means it's message is purposely coded with symbolism and its meaning purposely hidden to unbelievers similar to how Jesus's parables were. Yet, you still somehow think it's talking about literal earthquakes and other plagues when in reality it's describing spiritual tribulation symbolically using terms that are normally associated with physical tribulation.

Other scripture focuses on spiritual tribulation occurring before Christ returns at the end of the age (Matthew 24:9-13;23-26, 2 Thess 2:1-12, 1 Timothy 4:1-2, etc.) rather than physical tribulation like wars and earthquakes and such.

Other scripture indicates that people will mostly be going about their normal every day activities before Jesus comes rather than their being total chaos with wars and natural disasters and such going on throughout the world (Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26-30).

Why would you not interpret the book of Revelation accordingly? Interpreting it as saying earthquakes and other plagues will be the signs that the end is near contradicts what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse and contradicts what Paul indicated in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

Why do I take the book so literally, because I don’t want to be a partaker of its plagues. In chapter 22 it says if you add or take away from the book you’re doomed. That’s why you can’t go around spiritualizing it. Not cool.

 

[Truther]

Let's put your hyper-literalism to the test and see if that is the right approach to interpreting the highly symbolic book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If the stars of heaven literally fall unto the earth, then the earth would be annihilated. Do you understand that? That can't be taken literally. Also, if "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together" literally, then that would destroy all life on earth as well. That can't be taken literally. Also, can "every mountain and island" be literally moved out of their places without destroying the earth? How could only every mountain and island be literally moved out of their places without affecting the rest of the earth or without everything else on earth also being moved out of their places which would result in the destruction of the entire earth? This also can't be taken literally. Yet, you do so, anyway. You need to rethink your understanding of this passage as well as the rest of the book of Revelation because your understanding of the book of Revelation contradicts the rest of scripture and your interpretation of Revelation 6 also contradicts the idea that life on earth could continue if those things described there literally happened.

Oh, and are we supposed to believe that people will literally be telling the mountains and rocks to fall on them? No. That's ridiculous. It's symbolic text. If the mountains and rocks literally fell on them they obviously would all die, but it describes them as wanting the mountains and rocks to hide them "from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb". It's all symbolic.

So what you are saying is the the book of revelation is false. Plain and simple. If you can redefine it and say that the stars are Russian missiles or something
Try changing it and your doomed. It could be simply asteroids in the words of John hitting the Earth(falling stars as we call them today). John just wrote what he saw. It doesn’t mean it’s symbolic of some spiritual application or something like that.

 

[The Light]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

The Church is in heaven before the seals opened as God turns His attention to His Chosen. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

 

[The Light]

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

If some of you would ever believe what is written in the Word of God and stop making things up so your doctrine will work, you might gain some understanding.

 

[Hobie]

That is mostly balderdash from the false doctrines of the Pre-trib Rapture doctors.

The real Biblical meaning of the 144,000 is this:

1. Revelation 7 reveals the 144,000 are BELIEVING Israelites out of the 12 tribes of Israel mentioned there. And... that they are SEALED with God's SEAL in prep to go through the coming "great tribulation". See Ephesians 4:30 that shows being 'sealed' is by The Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. That means until Christ's future 2nd coming on the last day of this world to gather us.

Thus the OP's hints to the Church leaving prior to the "great tribulation" are false, and is of man's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture. Christ's Church will go through the "great tribulation", which is why Eph.4:30 said those in Christ are 'sealed' unto the 'day of redemption', meaning unto Christ's future return, which He showed in Matthew 24:29-31 His return to gather His Church will be AFTER... the tribulation.

2. Revelation 9 reveals the locusts are allowed to 'sting' only those NOT sealed with God's SEAL. That means Christ's Church are not subject to that 'stinging', and nor does it mean we have to physically leave for that to be so. Therefore, that event reveals what God's sealing at the end is actually for. It is for spiritual protection against what comes out of the locust's mouths and out of the mouth of the serpent. It is so Christ's faithful Church will not be tempted by Satan who is coming to play God on earth, working miracles to deceive with.

3. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 thus refer ONLY to believing Israelites in Christ's Church sealed in prep for the coming tribulation.

4. The "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 are about the believing Gentiles that are sealed to go through the great tribulation. Man's false pre-trib rapture theory instead tries to say these are raptured to heaven by Christ prior to the "great tribulation", but that idea is false. They refuse... to notice that John seeing these at Jesus' throne is NOT about a rapture prior to the trib, because events of the future "thousand years" Millennium are given along with it, which means, after the 'end' of this present world, and into Christ's future reign over ALL peoples and nations, including the wicked!

God has spiritual Israel which are those who believe, and these are who will be in the 144,000..

 

[covenantee]

If some of you would ever believe what is written in the Word of God and stop making things up so your doctrine will work, you might gain some understanding.

You can't understand what is spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Leave it for those who can.

 

[covenantee]

The Church is in heaven before the seals opened as God turns His attention to His Chosen. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

The Church, which includes the people of Daniel who are in the Church, is His Chosen.

His Only Chosen.

 

[The Light]

You can't understand what is spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Leave it for those who can.

Someone made up a bunch of nonsense about the tribes of Israel and you bit off on it hook, line and sinker.

Instead of attempting to spiritually discern Revelation, accepting what is written is far wiser. Changing what is written is not spiritually discerning anything.

 

[covenantee]

Someone made up a bunch of nonsense about the tribes of Israel and you bit off on it hook, line and sinker.

Instead of attempting to spiritually discern Revelation, accepting what is written is far wiser. Changing what is written is not spiritually discerning anything.

Thanks for convincingly exemplifying 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Paul wrote it just for you.

 

[Davy]

Paul is quoting Jesus. 1Thes 4-5 has Paul quoting Jesus per Matthew 24 with the one taken and the other left.

Don't even try.. to go there with that Pre-trib Rapture Pop Junk, because the 1st one 'taken' of Luke 17:37 Jesus showed will be to the FOWLS that eat on a DEAD CARCASE per Matt.24:28 and Luke 17:36-37.

What Paul showed in 1 Thess.4:13-17 was about the GATHERING OF THE SAINTS that Jesus first proclaimed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That Matt.24 version of Christ's coming to gather His Church aligns with what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:13-16 about Jesus bringing the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes.


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

That Mark 13 version shows the Church that is still alive on earth when Jesus comes being "caught up" to Him, which Paul taught in the 1 Thess.4:17 verse.

So... like I have said several times on this forum already, Apostle Paul got his teaching about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church from Jesus Himself with what Jesus taught about it.

 

[Davy]

Matt 24 says the catching away is for the saints. Before the destruction.

It has been established that you do not know how to read. Your above statement is another proof of that.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Per Matthew 24, all the tribes of the earth mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds. And then Jesus mentions the sound of the trumpet, and the gathering of His elect He brings with Him FROM HEAVEN (i.e., the saints that had already died, the 'asleep' saints Paul mentions in 1 Thess.4:13-16.) That is not about any idea of your "catching away". Thus you need to actually comprehend what you read, as it's obvious you are having a problem with that.

Yet you are not alone with your failure to grasp what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4. I've found that most of the deceived on man's false pre-trib rapture doctrines do not properly understand the 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter.

 

[Davy]

God has spiritual Israel which are those who believe, and these are who will be in the 144,000..

Rev.14 & 15 do not tell us who the 144,000 are.

But the Rev.7 Scripture does tell us who the 144,000 of that Chapter are.

So make up your mind; either you believe what Christ showed in Revelation 7 about the 144,000 being 12,000 out of each Israelite tribe there, or you don't believe it as written, but default to silly theories from men that are NOT... God.

 

[Davy]

Matt 24 says the catching away is for the saints. Before the destruction.

Matt.24 says nothing... about a "catching away". You ADDED to that Scripture because you have failed to read it, but wrongly assumed... what your false pre-trib rapture preachers have told you it says. You sound like a broken record already with spewing their lies.

 

[Davy]

That is a goofy cherry picking doctrine that you are rehearsing. Matthew 24 is the depiction of first Thessalonians four and five.
They both say the exact same thing in their own words. It starts with a catching away, then a thief, then a drunken servant.
Do you, it is only a coincidence that it is worded that way.
However, Paul says this, we say by the word of the Lord. That means Paul was quoting Jesus.

The "goofy cherry picking doctrine" is man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE which is nowhere written of in God's Word. That false doctrines is so... STUPID, it cannot even figure out that Jesus WARNED AGAINST BEING THE 1ST ONE 'TAKEN' per His answer of Luke 17:37!

So one might as well be speaking to a stone wall with those on man's fake pre-trib rapture theory.