The 144,000 before God at the end.

[The Light]

you mean according to PRE TRIB JESUS is not talking to the church and that according to men of pre trib

Ahhh, ahhh, no. According to the Word of God. The Church is heaven. See Revelation 5.

that is the seventieth week . Rather odd though .

The seventieth week is about the people of Daniel. See Daniel 9.

Paul seemed to be warning both believing jews and believing gentiles . aka THE CHURCH .

So now you want to switch to Paul when you were originally talking about Jesus and the AOD.

JESUS told this to BELIEVERS pardner .

Jesus ministry was to the Jews, pardner.

Matthew 15
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You problem is you are buying into what men TAUGHT YA .

And what men would that be. If I was listening to the teachings of men I wouldn't believe that there are two raptures. I'm just reading the Word with understanding and not making a bunch of nonsense up.

TIME to OPEN BIBLE FOR YOU . as i said there are truths and ERRORS within all three tribs .
ALL THREE TRIB teachings . THAT DO INCLUDE BIG TIME PRE TRIB . OPEN BIBLE . LOVE BIBLE
READ BIBLE , KEEP READING BIBLE , KEEP LOVING BIBLE and watch what happens .
BUT SO LONG as you read it through your own version , your own trib , YOU , like others , ARE NOT GONNA SEE What
NEEDS and what NEEDED TO BE SEEN . PONDER ON that for a while .

What I understand is you cannot use scripture to prove you point unless you make up a bunch of nonsense that has been passed down from unbelieving men.

If you don't see a rapture before the seals are opened, you lack understanding. FACT.

 

[covenantee]

Wait a second. So you want to tell me you have spiritually discerned that the 144,000 is the Church. Why did not John just not say the Church? The Church was mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation and then no mention of them again until Revelation 22. Don't you find that suspect? We can see the kings and priests in heaven in Revelation 5, BEFORE THE SEALS ARE OPENED.

And then we are given 12 verses identifying things about the 144,000 so we would know exactly who they are. Primarily they are first fruits from the 12 tribes. And you want to toss aside all this information identifying exactly who the 144,000 are and discern that they aren't what God says they are? That does not sound wise or discerning whatsoever.

Additionally, we see the 144,000 in heaven before the throne in heaven REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH. If you had any discernment that would pose a problem as that would put them in heaven BEFORE the Great Tribulation seen here.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

And why are you unable to discern the character of God. He sealed Noah in the ark 6 days before the flood and removed Lot from Sodom the very day destruction would come. And yet you have the Church going through the wrath of God. That doesn't sound very discerning. If you want to discern something, discern who the foolish virgins are that are not watching for the imminent return of the Messiah.

Why are you avoiding the question?

What is it about your rapture, which you claim is a literal event, that requires spiritual discernment?

I see you going to great lengths to avoid the word spiritual. That is consistent with your belief that spiritual discernment is foolishness.

Answer my question, then I'll answer yours.

 

[The Light]

Why are you avoiding the question?

I didn't know I was.

What is it about your rapture,

My rapture?

which you claim is a literal event, that requires spiritual discernment?

Have you discerned there is a rapture of the Church before the seals are opened?

I see you going to great lengths to avoid the word spiritual.

I see you go to great lengths to misapply the word spiritual.

That is consistent with your belief that spiritual discernment is foolishness.

It's always the same. You have to put words in people's mouths to make your point work out.

Answer my question, then I'll answer yours.

So the word tells us that the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe and are first fruits.

But you, being unable to accept what is written, tell me that you have spiritually discerned that the 144,000 are the Church. I don't think you have spiritually discerned this. I think this is a teaching that was passed down from unbelieving men that claim that the Church had replaced Israel. This was false spiritual discernment birthed by their unbelief that God was willing and able and faithful to keep His Word.

 

[marks]

But you, being unable to accept what is written, tell me that you have spiritually discerned that the 144,000 are the Church. I don't think you have spiritually discerned this. I think this is a teaching that was passed down from unbelieving men that claim that the Church had replaced Israel. This was false spiritual discernment birthed by their unbelief that God was willing and able and faithful to keep His Word.

Spiritual understanding will NEVER disagree with the plain saying that's given. We take in metaphors and similes and symbols with Biblical authority, when the Bible identifies these for us. The red dragon in the Revelation, we are told this is a symbol, and what it means. Hagar and Sarah, an allegory. We are told that, and what the allegory means. Types are spelled out in Scripture.

And when it's not allegory, not symbolic, not metaphor, according to the Bible, if we fail to accept what it's saying, the words God put there, this is a lack of spiritual understanding.

Spiritual discernment is NOT about overturning the words of Scripture. Spiritual discerment - what I think - is when we are able to accept every single word and letter as fully meaning what it says. It's getting past all the wrong conclusions we reach, and receiving the Word fully.

When we do that, everything is in harmony. Everything is plain.

But the natural man will always reach erroneous conclusions because the flesh is anti-Christ, hostile to God, and will always try to rule over everything it can, even the Word of God. Steal from God and make it fleshy! By adding, subtracting, changing things. It says THIS, but it means THAT, is the common refrain.

And when we as Christians engage in that sort of Bible reading we will find the task becomes endless, because the further into the Word you go, the more and more disharmony will arise from incorrect doctrines. It's all a single message to mankind from God. If you start changing parts, you have to keep doing it, or accept the inconsistencies.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, unbelieving men who didn't believe Israel could exist again, and in trying to understand what they read, rather then adjust their point of view - Israel WILL exist again - they adjusted the Bible. Israel must not be the nation they all understood it to be, when God was making His promises to them in the Law, and the Psalms, and the Prophets. As if God was promising things to them knowing all the while He was going to take it all back? I don't think so! His promises are all through the Scriptures. Israel will not be cast out, will not be forgotten, will be restored, and redeemed.

All this is said plainly across the Scriptures.

As you know!

:)

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

ask youself why you are not paying attention to what i said . I already told ya there are truths and errors
in all three tribs . TIME to go and learn that . And you are way overthinking things if you think we got two removals
before JUDGEMENT .
Lest by the other removal you are trying to imply that means we got called out of the world by FAITH IN JESUS
and thus we are no longer of the world .
THERE is but one removal concering the end time judgment upon the world by which it will surely perish
as will those who praticed evil and loved a lie . The lambs have already been CALLED OUT OF THE WORLD
though we still are IN the world we are no longer of the world .
BUT the day is coming and hour cometh WHEN THE MASTER OF THE HOUSE shall arise to JUDGE THE WORLD BY WRATH .
On that day the church is raptured up to go home as HE LIES DOWN with fierce wrath the wrath against
all who loved a lie , rejected HIM . TIS A ONE TIME EVENT BUD .
ONE TIME . and my advice to those who offer up a second chance hope , IS DONT .
You aint helping squat by doing so and rather encourage the flesh to continue on cause at least it might have a second chance .
WHEN INDEED THERE IS NO SECOND CHANCE . A little advice
IF you or me or anyone were to suddenly see or hear of folks dissappearing in what is known as the rapture ,
TUCK Your head down betwixt your knees and kiss it all good bye . CAUSE THE WRATH OF GOD IS ALL YOU GONNA SEE .
THERE IS NO SECOND chance . NOT after death , NOT after the LORD arises EITHER to judge this world .
My advice , Start preaching JESUS while there still BE TIME TO DO SO . cause NO man knows the day nor hour
HE COMETH . yeah preach that .

There was One Ark built for One Family of Faith and One Deliverance prior to Wrath/Flood.

JESUS said it will be just like Noah's day! = One Salvation/Gathering for One Body of Faith prior to Wrath. = 2 Thess ch2

Not prior to Tribulation = Only prior to the Wrath of the Lamb = 1 Thess 1:10

 

[David in NJ]

That's Pretrib in a nutshell. It is the only doctrine that wants to commit/take part in apostasia which is Apostasy not Rapture. There could not be a clearer warning sign of doctrinal deception than that.

i used to think you were stretching it a bit here, but a certain individual posted a response to me a few days ago that was so
contrary to the word of God that it showed me how deep the deception actually is = and they have no shame or fear of treading upon Holy Scripture.
Now i believe your assessment.

 

[ewq1938]

i used to think you were stretching it a bit here

They take older translations of the word as "departure" and believe it is a physical departure when the word means a moral or religious departure. Some will go as far to try to make it seem that dictionaries support this but it isn't true.

 

[David in NJ]

They take older translations of the word as "departure" and believe it is a physical departure when the word means a moral or religious departure. Some will go as far to try to make it seem that dictionaries support this but it isn't true.

The LORD Jesus, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John all said there would be a 'departure' from the Faith.

i can tell you now that what is building of the coming deception is of a Global Scale and of such lying wonders and power that people of all faiths will be running to worship it.
God knowing the hearts of man will give them over to it = 2 Thess 2:7-12

Matt 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

There is a new breed coming = "they shall mingle with the seed of men"

 

[marks]

They take older translations of the word as "departure" and believe it is a physical departure when the word means a moral or religious departure. Some will go as far to try to make it seem that dictionaries support this but it isn't true.

Actually, the word itself means departure. Apo, away from, Stao, I stand. Apostasia, away from standing, that is, to depart. That is the literal meaning of the word.

It's used 1 other time in the Greek New Testament, referring to departure from or rebellion against Moses depending on how you look at it. In the LXX, it's used I think 7 or 9 times, I forget exactly, with the predominant contexts showing it to mean rebellion against.

The word means departure, and was oft used for rebellion, or falling away.

A couple of hundred years earlier, in Classical Greek, it was used for departure, and meant departure.

Aristophanes, the "Shakespeare" of Classical Greek, used it in his play "The Birds", of these two men plotting to escape the world to the bird city in the sky, making their apostasia. This was a very famous play, and Paul's Greek readers would have known about it like we know about Shakespeare's plays.

Just some interesting facts about "apostasia".

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

But you, being unable to accept what is written, tell me that you have spiritually discerned that the 144,000 are the Church.

What single word in Scripture would describe the faithful obedient Chosen People of God through all ages?

But you, being unable to accept that faith and obedience are God's sole and exclusive acceptance conditions (Acts 10:35), tells me that you are spiritually incapable of recognizing His Church as His Chosen People through every age.

So keep your Jewish celibates.

I'll keep His Church.

 

[ewq1938]

The LORD Jesus, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John all said there would be a 'departure' from the Faith.

Yes and a huge portion of Christians are taught to desire to take part in an endtimes "departure".

We know of a false god/false christ that is coming. We are told about miracles used to deceive and deceptions in the end times. If there is a imitation of the second coming then we should expect imitations of important events like a fake rapture as well and current doctrines that lead people directly to these things.

 

[David in NJ]

They take older translations of the word as "departure" and believe it is a physical departure when the word means a moral or religious departure. Some will go as far to try to make it seem that dictionaries support this but it isn't true.

The LORD Jesus, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John all said there would be a 'departure' from the Faith.

i can tell you now that what is building of the coming deception is of a Global Scale and of such lying wonders and power that people of all faiths will be running to worship it.
God knowing the hearts of man will give them over to it = 2 Thess 2:7-12

Matt 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

There is a new breed coming = "they shall mingle with the seed of men"

What single word in Scripture would describe the faithful obedient Chosen People of God through all ages?

But you, being unable to accept that faith and obedience are God's sole and exclusive acceptance conditions (Acts 10:35), tells me that you are spiritually incapable of recognizing His Church as His Chosen People through every age.

So keep your Jewish celibates.

I'll keep His Church.

JESUS will Collect His Elect for HE never neglects those whom HE selected to be Resurrected.

 

[amigo de christo]

The LORD Jesus, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John all said there would be a 'departure' from the Faith.

i can tell you now that what is building of the coming deception is of a Global Scale and of such lying wonders and power that people of all faiths will be running to worship it.
God knowing the hearts of man will give them over to it = 2 Thess 2:7-12

Matt 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

There is a new breed coming = "they shall mingle with the seed of men"

IT BUILDS and GROWS MASSIVE even as we speak and many of all tribes , nations , religoins are all as one
merging under its all inclusive love lie . OH ITS HERE even now as we speak . Most folks going under it too .
Got no idea what or who its leading them as one RIGHT TOO . The true lambs will be hated big time .

 

[amigo de christo]

The LORD Jesus, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John all said there would be a 'departure' from the Faith.

i can tell you now that what is building of the coming deception is of a Global Scale and of such lying wonders and power that people of all faiths will be running to worship it.
God knowing the hearts of man will give them over to it = 2 Thess 2:7-12

Matt 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

There is a new breed coming = "they shall mingle with the seed of men"

JESUS will Collect His Elect for HE never neglects those whom HE selected to be Resurrected.

In the days long long ago a man came preaching in the Spirit of elijah pointing men to Christ . Making ready
a people for the LORD .
The mystery of inquity has been at work making ready a peoples for ANTI CHRIST . the dark elijah
worketh inquity upon inquity and gathers the tribes of all religoins and peoples to rise as one under that which it calls love
and unity . Lambs have bled before , WELL PREPARE TO BLEED FOR CHRIST . CAUSE this generation
is no exception to the hatred of men . ITS COMING and its coming FOR to rid the earth of all lambs .
This is a blood bath of utter hatred against the lambs . AND they all gonna think its the love gods will
the dire necessity that to attain world peace and safety , ANYTHING that dont conform GOTTA GO , as in RID THEM FROM THE EARTH .
OH its coming my friend . Tribulations will worsen and very soon .

 

[amigo de christo]

There was One Ark built for One Family of Faith and One Deliverance prior to Wrath/Flood.

JESUS said it will be just like Noah's day! = One Salvation/Gathering for One Body of Faith prior to Wrath. = 2 Thess ch2

Not prior to Tribulation = Only prior to the Wrath of the Lamb = 1 Thess 1:10

 

[amigo de christo]

They take older translations of the word as "departure" and believe it is a physical departure when the word means a moral or religious departure. Some will go as far to try to make it seem that dictionaries support this but it isn't true.

 

[amigo de christo]

There was One Ark built for One Family of Faith and One Deliverance prior to Wrath/Flood.

JESUS said it will be just like Noah's day! = One Salvation/Gathering for One Body of Faith prior to Wrath. = 2 Thess ch2

Not prior to Tribulation = Only prior to the Wrath of the Lamb = 1 Thess 1:10

EXACTLY my friend . Folks act like noah and his family was being protected from the wrath of the kings .
OH NO, BUT FROM THE WRATH OF GOD which came upon the ungodly .
IN THIS WORLD YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION . JESUS warned us , and we BELIEVE JESUS .
many warnings to the people to prepare to suffer for HIM . even having to die , but that he who endures to THE END
the same shall be saved . Prepare the peoples david . The doctrines of men have and do decieve many .
WE BIBLE UP . PRAISE the glorious LORD .

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually it works against the lie of pre-trib = half-filled = "no lie is of the Truth"

Have you read 1 John lately??? = You better fill-UP

What is half filled?

 

[rebuilder 454]

EXACTLY my friend . Folks act like noah and his family was being protected from the wrath of the kings .
OH NO, BUT FROM THE WRATH OF GOD which came upon the ungodly .
IN THIS WORLD YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION . JESUS warned us , and we BELIEVE JESUS .
many warnings to the people to prepare to suffer for HIM . even having to die , but that he who endures to THE END
the same shall be saved . Prepare the peoples david . The doctrines of men have and do decieve many .
WE BIBLE UP . PRAISE the glorious LORD .

There was no post flood gathering
Only a pre flood gathering.

 

[The Light]

What single word in Scripture would describe the faithful obedient Chosen People of God through all ages?

But you, being unable to accept that faith and obedience are God's sole and exclusive acceptance conditions (Acts 10:35), tells me that you are spiritually incapable of recognizing His Church as His Chosen People through every age.

So keep your Jewish celibates.

I'll keep His Church.

God is going to keep His promise to His Chosen whether you like it or not. FACT