The 144,000 before God at the end.

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Keraz

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I couldn't less what commentators say. What would they know?
In this; you are correct. Daniel 12:9 makes it clear that no one until the end times are very close, will be able to understand the Prophesies.
Proved by the proliferation of theories, ideas and wild guesses out there.
Referring to the Commentators in Prophecy matters, is a mistake and leads to confusion.
Please show me where I am wrong? What have I missed?
You are wrong to think those scriptures refer to the same events.
Matthew 24:29 will happen when Jesus Returns......The moon will not give her light....
Revelation 6:12.....the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that commences the end times. the moon becomes as blood....

Two different events, years apart.

Please show us where the Sixth Seal has a resurrection. The harvest is of death; to the ungodly.
 

The Light

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In this; you are correct. Daniel 12:9 makes it clear that no one until the end times are very close, will be able to understand the Prophesies.
Proved by the proliferation of theories, ideas and wild guesses out there.
Referring to the Commentators in Prophecy matters, is a mistake and leads to confusion.

:thumbsup:
You are wrong to think those scriptures refer to the same events.
Matthew 24:29 will happen when Jesus Returns......The moon will not give her light....
Revelation 6:12.....the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that commences the end times. the moon becomes as blood....

Two different events, years apart.
In a total lunar eclipse the moon goes dark and then the red light waves bend around the earth and the moon becomes as blood. So you are incorrect that these are different events, as the moon will both not give her light and will be as blood in a total lunar eclipse.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the same coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation and then the wrath of God begins. At the end of wrath Jesus comes to set up His kingdom. There are two different comings, one at the 6th seal and one at the end of the trumpets. However, the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. Also note that the stars from heaven fall at the 6th seal and in the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.
Please show us where the Sixth Seal has a resurrection. The harvest is of death; to the ungodly.
Here is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This harvest occurs at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets when the dead and alive are changed at the same time.

1 Corinthians 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 

David in NJ

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Times of the gentiles.
Described in romans.

GREAT, we AGREE on Scripture - Let us embrace this Truth so that we can SEE how, when and where the LORD Jesus said this will occur.

Romans 11:25-27

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

We AGREE this is the TRUTH = Yes
 

rebuilder 454

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:thumbsup:

In a total lunar eclipse the moon goes dark and then the red light waves bend around the earth and the moon becomes as blood. So you are incorrect that these are different events, as the moon will both not give her light and will be as blood in a total lunar eclipse.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the same coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation and then the wrath of God begins. At the end of wrath Jesus comes to set up His kingdom. There are two different comings, one at the 6th seal and one at the end of the trumpets. However, the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. Also note that the stars from heaven fall at the 6th seal and in the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.

Here is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This harvest occurs at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets when the dead and alive are changed at the same time.

1 Corinthians 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev 14 is a Jewish harvest.
The gentile church has been in heaven since the advent of the ac....pretrib.
That is why we see the "innumerable number" early on in the gt.
They are the last of the church age.
All martyrs. Millions of them.
 

rebuilder 454

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GREAT, we AGREE on Scripture - Let us embrace this Truth so that we can SEE how, when and where the LORD Jesus said this will occur.

Romans 11:25-27

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

We AGREE this is the TRUTH = Yes
i doubt we agree because i am not replacement theology
 

David in NJ

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i doubt we agree because i am not replacement theology
we are not discussing replacement theology.

Post #484 only speaks of Romans chapter 11 and specifically verses 25-27

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

We AGREE this is the TRUTH = Yes
 

Keraz

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In a total lunar eclipse the moon goes dark and then the red light waves bend around the earth and the moon becomes as blood. So you are incorrect that these are different events, as the moon will both not give her light and will be as blood in a total lunar eclipse.
I have watched a lunar eclipse. The moon glows a brick red at best, it does not shine bright red at all. Also the suns corona shows all around the moon at totality. You avoid Isaiah 30:26, where it says the moon will shine as bright as the sun, another CME effect, as the moon reflects the flash of this explosion on the sun.

Is it because I refute the rapture to heaven theory, that you feel you must deny the only plausible explanation for the Sixth Seal?
24. Also note that the stars from heaven fall at the 6th seal and in the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.
We have just experienced a meteor shower. They happen often.
Here is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
Rev 14:14-20, is plainly a harvest of the wicked. Proved by how they are thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath.

Your desperation to fit in a rapture. somewhere - anywhere, is very evident.
 

The Light

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I have watched a lunar eclipse. The moon glows a brick red at best, it does not shine bright red at all.
The scripture does not say the moon shines bright red, it says the moon will be as blood.

Look up "what is a blood moon" on the internet and it will tell you a blood moon is a total lunar eclipse. FACT.

Also the suns corona shows all around the moon at totality.
You are referring to a solar ecliplse, not a lunar eclipse.
You avoid Isaiah 30:26, where it says the moon will shine as bright as the sun, another CME effect, as the moon reflects the flash of this explosion on the sun.
No. I did not avoid it. In fact, you have just proven yourself wrong. In Isaiah 30 it says the moon will be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun seven-fold. Whereas in Matthew 24 the sun is darkened, and the moon will not give her light. The truth is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal and not the coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets. Now that the book is unsealed, we can understand these things. The sun and moon do not shine 7 fold in the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 so you have proven yourself incorrect.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Isaiah 30
26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.


Is it because I refute the rapture to heaven theory, that you feel you must deny the only plausible explanation for the Sixth Seal?
No. And now you should see that what you call the only plausible explanation for the 6th seal is not plausible at all. The only plausible explanation is that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. And yes, Jesus also comes at the end of the trumpets.
We have just experienced a meteor shower. They happen often.
The stars falling from heaven is not a meteor shower. Here is an example of a star falling from heaven.

Revelation 9
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

If you go to Daniel 12 you will see that Michael stands up during the Great Tribulation. There is war in heaven then.

Revelation 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

When the place of the angels is found in heaven no longer, that is when the stars fall from heaven.


Rev 14:14-20, is plainly a harvest of the wicked. Proved by how they are thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath.
You seem to be missing the fact that the Son of Man reaps first. This is the righteous being reaped. Then an angel comes and reaps the unrighteous and cast them into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Your desperation to fit in a rapture. somewhere - anywhere, is very evident.
The only thing evident is that every point that you made have been clearly disproven.

You claim:
1. The sun turns bright red during a lunar eclipse. - Proven false. The Word says the moon as blood, not bright red.
2. The suns corona shows all around the moon at totality - Proven false. You are referring to a solar eclipse not a lunar eclipse.
3. I avoid Isaiah 30:26, where it says the moon will shine as bright as the sun. - Proven false. Isaiah 30 proves you are incorrect.
4. I must deny the only plausible explanation for the Sixth Seal. - Proven false. I prove the only plausible explanation for the 6th seal.
5. The stars falling from heaven in Revelation 6 is a meteor shower. Proven false. There is war in heaven and the fallen angels are found there no more.
6. Rev 14:14-20, is plainly a harvest of the wicked. -Proven false. It is also clearly a harvest of the righteous.


Additionally, there are clearly multiple raptures to heaven. Your inability to see at least one is quite baffling.
 
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rebuilder 454

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ewq1938 = "No one has ever posted a verse pointing to a pretrib rapture because there are none but there are for posttrib:"

Mind-blowing when you really think about it.

The Good News is that the Word only tells us the Truth.
What is mind blowing is those that ignore, reframe, or omit the words of Jesus, declaring a pretrib gathering of the bride.
The words if Jesus.
 

rebuilder 454

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I have watched a lunar eclipse. The moon glows a brick red at best, it does not shine bright red at all. Also the suns corona shows all around the moon at totality. You avoid Isaiah 30:26, where it says the moon will shine as bright as the sun, another CME effect, as the moon reflects the flash of this explosion on the sun.

Is it because I refute the rapture to heaven theory, that you feel you must deny the only plausible explanation for the Sixth Seal?

We have just experienced a meteor shower. They happen often.

Rev 14:14-20, is plainly a harvest of the wicked. Proved by how they are thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath.

Your desperation to fit in a rapture. somewhere - anywhere, is very evident.
The 144k are eternally declared as first fruits.
They can ONLY BE firstfruits if the PRECEDE main harvest.
Your doctrine omits 2 of the three harvests of rev 14.
You see the third, unto destruction, then label all into destruction
.
Really????

You need to carefully re read rev 14.
The fact is the first 2 are to heaven.
The third is to destruction.
It is vivid, and i would think impossible to miss.
 

David in NJ

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What is mind blowing is those that ignore, reframe, or omit the words of Jesus, declaring a pretrib gathering of the bride.
The words if Jesus.
Good Morning,

If Jesus said 'pre-trib' rapture/gathering THEN we would BELIEVE it.

FACT - No one has been able to find Jesus declaring pre-trib.

Please post the scripture(s) that CLEARLY state when the 'church-age' comes to an End.
Example - Romans 11:25-27 is one

Can you please find and post the scripture where the LORD Jesus validates Romans 11:25-27
 

rebuilder 454

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I have watched a lunar eclipse. The moon glows a brick red at best, it does not shine bright red at all. Also the suns corona shows all around the moon at totality. You avoid Isaiah 30:26, where it says the moon will shine as bright as the sun, another CME effect, as the moon reflects the flash of this explosion on the sun.

Is it because I refute the rapture to heaven theory, that you feel you must deny the only plausible explanation for the Sixth Seal?

We have just experienced a meteor shower. They happen often.

Rev 14:14-20, is plainly a harvest of the wicked. Proved by how they are thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath.

Your desperation to fit in a rapture. somewhere - anywhere, is very evident.

The resurrection happens when Jesus comes and Jesus comes at the last trump which means the last of the trumps, which are after all the seals were opened.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The last trump is blown every year at the feast if trumpets.
Making a doctrine over cliches is not the high ground.
IOW, You can not defend a post seal rapture
 

The Light

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The 144k are eternally declared as first fruits.
They can ONLY BE firstfruits if the PRECEDE main harvest.
This is the fact that most miss. As you say, the 144,000 are first fruits. That means that there will be a harvest.
Therefore, the 144,000 are not the Church and the 144,000 are not all of Israel. They are EXACTLY what the Word says they are........first fruits. And that means that there will be a harvest and that harvest is seen in Revelation 6, Matthew 24 and Revelation 14.
 

rebuilder 454

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Good Morning,

If Jesus said 'pre-trib' rapture/gathering THEN we would BELIEVE it.

FACT - No one has been able to find Jesus declaring pre-trib.

Please post the scripture(s) that CLEARLY state when the 'church-age' comes to an End.
Example - Romans 11:25-27 is one

Can you please find and post the scripture where the LORD Jesus validates Romans 11:25-27
times of gentiles completed.
Where is that?.
Where does your doctrine address the covenant Jew?
I already addressed it.
Replacement theology makes grand canyon leaps and is incubated in omission.
 

rebuilder 454

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Good Morning,

If Jesus said 'pre-trib' rapture/gathering THEN we would BELIEVE it.

FACT - No one has been able to find Jesus declaring pre-trib.

Please post the scripture(s) that CLEARLY state when the 'church-age' comes to an End.
Example - Romans 11:25-27 is one

Can you please find and post the scripture where the LORD Jesus validates Romans 11:25-27
He did
Made it clear and vivid.
You do not believe it.