The 144,000 before God at the end.

[David in NJ]

No one has ever posted a verse pointing to a pretrib rapture because there are none but there are for posttrib:

The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(second coming reference): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture ie: a gathering)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

ewq1938 = "No one has ever posted a verse pointing to a pretrib rapture because there are none but there are for posttrib:"

Mind-blowing when you really think about it.

The Good News is that the Word only tells us the Truth.

 

[ewq1938]

Please post any verse or verses of scripture that shows that He comes for the Church after the seals.

The resurrection happens when Jesus comes and Jesus comes at the last trump which means the last of the trumps, which are after all the seals were opened.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[ewq1938]

ewq1938 = "No one has ever posted a verse pointing to a pretrib rapture because there are none but there are for posttrib:"

Mind-blowing when you really think about it.

More so that they don't even use any of the verses that actually describe the rapture event nor do they use the verse by Paul where he uses the Greek word for rapture. What do they use? They cite the verse using the Greek word for Apostasy and claim it is actually the rapture. That is mind-blowing if you ask me.

 

[David in NJ]

More so that they don't even use any of the verses that actually describe the rapture event nor do they use the verse by Paul where he uses the Greek word for rapture. What do they use? They cite the verse using the Greek word for Apostasy and claim it is actually the rapture. That is mind-blowing if you ask me.

Yeah, when they used 2 Thess ch2 for the 'rapture' it became quite clear as to how desperate the falsehood is.

The Good News is that the Word only tells us the Truth therefore we have complete confidence in "It is written" and need not for any man to teach us.

Brother, have you seen these Posts - 390, 401, 402, 408

 

[ewq1938]

Yeah, when they used 2 Thess ch2 for the 'rapture' it became quite clear as to how desperate the falsehood is.

The Good News is that the Word only tells us the Truth therefore we have complete confidence in "It is written" and need not for any man to teach us.

Brother, have you seen these Posts - 390, 401, 402, 408

Yes.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes.

Check out Isaiah chapter 25

 

[David in NJ]

@ewq1938 and @TheLight

Good Night Brothers and please pray that the LORD would restore healthy normal sleep for my body - Thank You

 

[The Light]

The resurrection happens when Jesus comes and Jesus comes at the last trump which means the last of the trumps, which are after all the seals were opened.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I see no indication that the Church is raptured then. Additionally, the verse you quote is not about the Church being gathered from the earth, as they are gathered from heaven. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and announces the fall fruit harvest of the 6th seal and is not a trumpet blown by an angel. Additionally, there will be many trumpets blown on the Feast of Tabernacles throughout the millennialism, as it is feast that will occur every year, hence, the 7th tumpet blown by an angel is not the last trump.

 

[The Light]

@ewq1938 and @TheLight

Good Night Brothers and please pray that the LORD would restore healthy normal sleep for my body - Thank You

Rest well brother.

 

[ewq1938]

I see no indication that the Church is raptured then.

Other scripture says the resurrection happens just before the rapture.

Additionally, the verse you quote is not about the Church being gathered from the earth, as they are gathered from heaven.

The gathering or rapture is of living people on the Earth up to the clouds.

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and announces the fall fruit harvest of the 6th seal and is not a trumpet blown by an angel.

The last trump of prophecy is the last of 7, where Christ returns at the last of them. That is when the resurrection and rapture occur.

Additionally, there will be many trumpets blown on the Feast of Tabernacles throughout the millennialism, as it is feast that will occur every year, hence, the 7th tumpet blown by an angel is not the last trump.

The feast of tabernacles is not mentioned in end times prophecy. The only trumpets that are mentioned are the 7 in Rev so the last trump Paul wrote of is that 7th trump.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Please post any verse or verses of scripture that shows that He comes for the Church after the seals.

Sure. Acts 3:21

Heaven must receive him till the restoration of all things. If he hasnt even opened the seals yet, nothing has been removed for anything to be restored. Because of this, it is impossible for him to leave heaven and resurrect or rapture anyone before any seals.

Also, it's strange that I posted verses that prove you wrong as regards to their being one harvest.

You did no such thing or I would have enjoyed looking at it. What you did post was the Harvest of Matthew. And in it, Christ spoke of 1 harvest at the end of the world: The wheat and the tares. Not 2 harvests at the end of the world; One.

A wise man of God would seek out the truth. You roll like nothing happened. Yeah, and don't start with the excuses of why you have denied the facts.

Could you show some love and/or respect as we converse? When you talk like this, all you do is hurt your testimony as a self-professed Christian. You do this because your heart is full of anger. Otherwise, why do it? Let anger, strife and all malice flee from you.

 

[marks]

Heaven must receive him till the restoration of all things. If he hasnt even opened the seals yet, nothing has been removed for anything to be restored. Because of this, it is impossible for him to leave heaven and resurrect or rapture anyone before any seals.

By this reasoning, Jesus cannot return to earth to restore all things until all things are restored. Do you see the conundrum here?

I'd hardly say that passage teaches rapture timing in any sense.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

By this reasoning, Jesus cannot return to earth to restore all things until all things are restored. Do you see the conundrum here?

I'd hardly say that passage teaches rapture timing in any sense.

Much love!

Please read carefully the Scriptures: Acts 3:19-26

Here is an Example of God's view of Restoration - Part #1
Mark 9:11-13
And they asked Him, saying, “Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”

Then He answered and told them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and restores all things. And how is it written concerning the Son of Man, that He must suffer many things and be treated with contempt? But I say to you that Elijah has also come, and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him.”

 

[David in NJ]

By this reasoning, Jesus cannot return to earth to restore all things until all things are restored. Do you see the conundrum here?

I'd hardly say that passage teaches rapture timing in any sense.

Much love!

Of course it teaches rapture timing = There will be no rapture until His Return whereby JESUS descends from Heaven.

Holy Spirit Witness = 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 2 Thess ch2 , 1 Cor ch15 , 1 John , and Revelation ch19

 

[marks]

The(low-oil)Light says: "Whereby, all can see? That is certainly not possible as the foolish virgins cannot see as they lack lamp oil. If you understood the scriptures, you would understand He comes for the Church before the seals are opened. How can one see without lamp oil?"

God is the God of Truth and He never speaks confusion to His People = 1 Corinthians 14:33

Post the Scripture where it says: "Before these seals open i will rapture my Church/Bride/Elect"

Post-Trib can be found Straight from the Mouth of God = Matthew ch24, 1 & 2 Thess, James, Jude ,1 John and Revelation

Post-Trib can be found Straight from the Mouth of God = Genesis and OT Prophets

The theory of pre-trib rapture twists and turns like the serpent in the Garden, which is why you are unable to find and post
a STRAIGHT Declaration from the Mouth of God saying it.

Chew on that and let it sink in.................

Hi David,

I appreciate your heart in all this. I don't know why you don't choose to address my material I've posted to you. I've so hoped that you would, that perhaps you may see something of what I see. I look at the sayings of the passages. I've seen demonstrated over and over that those who disagree with these things tend to do a certain thing.

That things they do is this. They interpret passages as best they can, and, thinking they are correct in those interpretations, they come across a passage that appears to disagree. So instead of going back to rethink their original interpretation, they look at the new passage, and find a way that it doesn't quite say what the words say. They will find a way to make it say something that will agree with their original interpretation.

Whenever I run into that, I will always revisit my interpretations, and modify as needed by my new understanding. I find the Bible is fully in harmony WHEN you accept the plain sayings. But sometimes we may need to change our views.

I've learned to begin with the sheep/goats judgment, because this is one that is plainly given prophecy, no second guessing. But it flies in the face of post-trib rapture timing IF - IF you accept it as Jesus said it . . . which is the same as prophesied in the Law and the Prophets.

You are looking for a straight declaration of God. What about the declarations I've been showing to you? Do they mean what they say?

That seems to be the issue. Some cannot accept the plain sayings of the Bible. I do. So we disagree. And no amount of saying I believe a lie will change those facts.

The truth is, there is no post-trib rapture of the church anywhere in the Bible. The only place you can put it there is in Matthew 24:31 if you call the "chosen" there to be the church, except, that's not what Jesus was saying. He was speaking in the language of the day, of the people, the chosen people, and the gentiles. Only if you ignore that.

Much love, and hope!

 

[marks]

Please read carefully the Scriptures: Acts 3:19-26

Here is an Example of God's view of Restoration - Part #1
Mark 9:11-13
And they asked Him, saying, “Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”

Then He answered and told them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and restores all things. And how is it written concerning the Son of Man, that He must suffer many things and be treated with contempt? But I say to you that Elijah has also come, and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him.”

Stay with the contexts.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

Sure. Acts 3:21

Heaven must receive him till the restoration of all things. If he hasnt even opened the seals yet, nothing has been removed for anything to be restored. Because of this, it is impossible for him to leave heaven and resurrect or rapture anyone before any seals.

Acts 3
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

It does not say "Whom the heaven must KEEP" until the restitution of all things. It says must receive. The Lord returns to the earth many times before the restitution of all things. In Revelation 14 we see the Lord come to the earth for the 144,000 first fruits. Then the 144,000 are in heaven as heaven must receive Him until the restitution of all things.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

You did no such thing or I would have enjoyed looking at it. What you did post was the Harvest of Matthew. And in it, Christ spoke of 1 harvest at the end of the world: The wheat and the tares. Not 2 harvests at the end of the world; One.

You claimed there was one harvest and one harvest only. And that harvest had the tares gathered first. I showed you the harvest in Revelation 14 in which the righteous are gathered first. That means that there is more than one harvest.

And now you want to qualify you answer by saying the end of the world. The harvest at the 6th seal takes place at the end of the age, before wrath. The harvest you are talking about is after wrath. But there are still more than one harvest.

Could you show some love and/or respect as we converse?

I will attempt to do so.

When you talk like this, all you do is hurt your testimony as a self-professed Christian. You do this because your heart is full of anger. Otherwise, why do it? Let anger, strife and all malice flee from you.

On one hand I would agree you fully. On the other hand, as a believer in the truth of the pre trib rapture, we are constantly under attack from those without understanding. Servants of Satan, demons and all kinds other such nonsense, are we called. I don't see any pretribbers saying such things to the foolish virgins.

 

[Keraz]

I don't see any pretribbers saying such things to the foolish virgins.

I oppose the pre-trib rapture.
But now I back off a bit, as when I prove rapture to heaven believers to be wrong, it most often excites a very hateful and abusive response. It is not my wish to cause people to act in such a nasty way against anyone who challenges their precious beliefs. I have, in fact; received harmful threats.
God will show everyone, including me; the fulfilment of His plans for the end times.

Basically, we must stay strong in our faith, thru whatever happens and God will reward us for trusting in Him.
I view the 'rapture', as an escapist policy, that displays inadequate trust in the Lord for His help and protection through all that must happen, before the glorious Return of Jesus, when all who have proved their loyalty to Jesus, will be rewarded. Revelation 5:9-10

 

[David in NJ]

I oppose the pre-trib rapture.
But now I back off a bit, as when I prove rapture to heaven believers to be wrong, it most often excites a very hateful and abusive response. It is not my wish to cause people to act in such a nasty way against anyone who challenges their precious beliefs. I have, in fact; received harmful threats.
God will show everyone, including me; the fulfilment of His plans for the end times.

Basically, we must stay strong in our faith, thru whatever happens and God will reward us for trusting in Him.
I view the 'rapture', as an escapist policy, that displays inadequate trust in the Lord for His help and protection through all that must happen, before the glorious Return of Jesus, when all who have proved their loyalty to Jesus, will be rewarded. Revelation 5:9-10

Ditto

 

[David in NJ]

Hi David,

I appreciate your heart in all this. I don't know why you don't choose to address my material I've posted to you. I've so hoped that you would, that perhaps you may see something of what I see. I look at the sayings of the passages. I've seen demonstrated over and over that those who disagree with these things tend to do a certain thing.

That things they do is this. They interpret passages as best they can, and, thinking they are correct in those interpretations, they come across a passage that appears to disagree. So instead of going back to rethink their original interpretation, they look at the new passage, and find a way that it doesn't quite say what the words say. They will find a way to make it say something that will agree with their original interpretation.

Whenever I run into that, I will always revisit my interpretations, and modify as needed by my new understanding. I find the Bible is fully in harmony WHEN you accept the plain sayings. But sometimes we may need to change our views.

I've learned to begin with the sheep/goats judgment, because this is one that is plainly given prophecy, no second guessing. But it flies in the face of post-trib rapture timing IF - IF you accept it as Jesus said it . . . which is the same as prophesied in the Law and the Prophets.

You are looking for a straight declaration of God. What about the declarations I've been showing to you? Do they mean what they say?

That seems to be the issue. Some cannot accept the plain sayings of the Bible. I do. So we disagree. And no amount of saying I believe a lie will change those facts.

The truth is, there is no post-trib rapture of the church anywhere in the Bible. The only place you can put it there is in Matthew 24:31 if you call the "chosen" there to be the church, except, that's not what Jesus was saying. He was speaking in the language of the day, of the people, the chosen people, and the gentiles. Only if you ignore that.

Much love, and hope!

Just got in from work - i am very tired and will try and respond later.