The 144,000 before God at the end.

[The Light]

I am waiting for anyone to post a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.

That should be easy enough as there are two raptures. One rapture before the seals are opened and one immediately after the tribulation (post trib). Then comes the marriage supper which is during the wrath of God. Then Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That should be easy enough as there are two raptures. One rapture before the seals are opened and one immediately after the tribulation (post trib). Then comes the marriage supper which is during the wrath of God. Then Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets up His kingdom.

The 4 horsemen mark the beginning of the gt.
Judgement on earth.
The time of the gentiles fulfilled.
God switches to the Jewish remnant.
Normal life, then the rapture.
The ac is the white horse rider, the false messiah.
With noah and lot there is no "prejudgment" ,then wrath.
With the "one taken", we have normal life, while they are taken.
With the 10 virgins, we have normal life, while taken.
Read what the 4 horsemen bring.
Normal life is over at the start of the gt.
The entire 7 yr trib is the gt.
Plus we have the "innumerable number" before the throne early in the gt. They are martyrs that did not make the rapture.
They refused the mark.
Postrib , prewrath fails at many, many points.
The bible says the ac kills all that refuse the mark.
There are no christians left early on at the start if the gt.
The prewrath postribbers used to be called "midtrib"
Midtrib, as i call it, is poorly thought out

 

[No Pre-TB]

Well, here's what happens at the end of the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 7th seal is the trumpets of God wrath.

By your logic, the great day of God's wrath comes when the 6th seal is opened. That means the 6th seal is wrath, the 7th seal is wrath and everything after. And that is not accurate. The point is, the earth dwellers recognize an event at the 6th seal and they announce they think its God's wrath. God doesnt announce it, the angel's don't announce it and those in heaven don't announce it. - It is the wicked that do.

There is a difference between God's vengeance on Babylon and God's wrath on the wicked. They are not at the same time.

Just because they are not woes does not mean they are not wrath. What is this? a picnic?

The same people that generalize and say a great literal mountain will fall and destroy everything causing the sea to turn to blood say it's wrath and all that damage and it's not even listed as a woe. Figure that out....

That's because they do not understand the fig tree has two harvests.

Christ only spoke of the harvest at the end. The tares to be burned and the wheat into his barn. There is only 1 harvest per Christ own words on future events.

 

[The Light]

The 4 horsemen mark the beginning of the gt.

No sir. The four horsemen are the beginning of sorrows seen here.

Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The great tribulation is seen here.

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And the great tribulation is seen here.

Revelation 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Judgement on earth.
The time of the gentiles fulfilled.

I think the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Revelation 11:15.

God switches to the Jewish remnant.
Normal life, then the rapture.

This is the fullness of the Gentiles when God turns His attention to Israel.

The ac is the white horse rider, the false messiah.

Yes. This is the Beast of the Earth. He is a former King of the North, that will be given the stephanos crown which of course is the leader of the UN.

With noah and lot there is no "prejudgment" ,then wrath.

Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood (I just learned that, as I thought it was 7 days) just as the Church will be in heaven 6 years before wrath.

As for days of Lot, the very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came just as the very time of the second rapture, immediately after the tribulation, destruction will come on the world as Gods wrath is unleashed with the opening of the 7th seal.

With the "one taken", we have normal life, while they are taken.
With the 10 virgins, we have normal life, while taken.
Read what the 4 horsemen bring.
Normal life is over at the start of the gt.

Yes normal life is over when the first seal is opened but the great tribulation does not come until the 5th seal is opened.

The entire 7 yr trib is the gt.

Only the 5th seal is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus "immediately after the tribulation". The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

Postrib , prewrath fails at many, many points.

Where it fails is that it is NOT the Church being raptured as they are already in heaven. The 144,.000 are the first fruits of the rapture that occurs at the 6th seal before wrath seen here.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And seen here

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The bible says the ac kills all that refuse the mark.
There are no christians left early on at the start if the gt.

I'm thinking the Gentiles believers will all be killed. These are those that were not raptured as they enter the time of testing. The alive that are raptured will be of the 12 tribes. The days are cut short for them, because if they were not cut short there would be no flesh alive to be raptured to salvation.

Matthew 24
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The prewrath postribbers used to be called "midtrib"
Midtrib, as i call it, is poorly thought out

This is a confusing mess because some post tribbers are what you are describing. They realize that the tribulation and the wrath of God are separate events. (BTW, Pretribbers do not realize that the tribulation and the wrath of God are separate events). The majority of post tribbers really believe that Jesus comes only at the end of wrath. They don't realize that Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest and then Jesus returns at the end of wrath to set up His kingdom. They see only one coming of Jesus when He will come 5 times.

 

[brightfame52]

I am waiting for anyone to post a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.

lol, you not going to believe it. Matt 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Corresponds with 1 Cor 15:51-52

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:15-17

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[No Pre-TB]

They are martyrs that did not make the rapture.
They refused the mark.

They are not the church but they are for God's wrath? How is that possible?

They are blessed: Rev 14:13
They keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus per Rev 14:12

Therefore they are sealed with the HS till the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:14) because it is the downpayment. Anyone with it will not miss the resurrection of the dead or harpazo. That day of redemption per Luke 21:28 and Romans 8:23 is at the resurrection.

 

[David in NJ]

I am waiting for anyone to post a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.

Have you ever considered Believing the LORD Jesus Christ?

JESUS said Post-Trib at least 4 times in one passage.

1st - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

2nd - Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

3rd - Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.
26“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

4th - 29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I am waiting for anyone to post a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.

Here are 2..I can give more.

2 Timothy 4:1 - At his appearing in his Kingdom
Isaiah 25:6-8 Notice in this mountain, the same mountain of Daniel 7:14
When will he swallow up death in victory? In this mountain! What does it refer to? 1 Cor 15:52-55

 

[The Light]

By your logic, the great day of God's wrath comes when the 6th seal is opened. That means the 6th seal is wrath, the 7th seal is wrath and everything after. And that is not accurate.

No, that's you putting words in my mouth. I said no such thing.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days for a harvest. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. Tribulation and wrath are not the same event.

The point is, the earth dwellers recognize an event at the 6th seal and they announce they think its God's wrath. God doesnt announce it, the angel's don't announce it and those in heaven don't announce it. - It is the wicked that do.

The point is Jesus comes at the 6th seal as MARKED by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Matthew 24 immediately after the tribulation we have the signs of the sun, moon and stars, and then Jesus comes. You ought to be able to determine that when those signs happen at the 6th seal. Jesus comes. And that coming is BEFORE wrath.

There is a difference between God's vengeance on Babylon and God's wrath on the wicked. They are not at the same time.

I know. Can you quote the post where I said they were the same???????????

The same people that generalize and say a great literal mountain will fall and destroy everything causing the sea to turn to blood say it's wrath and all that damage and it's not even listed as a woe. Figure that out....

So wrath has to be a woe? Is that what you are saying?

Wrath comes after the 7th seal opened and the first trumpet of wrath sounds.

Wrath is over when the 7th trumpet begins to sound when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Christ only spoke of the harvest at the end. The tares to be burned and the wheat into his barn. There is only 1 harvest per Christ own words on future events.

There's one harvest?????????????????????????????????????????????

Christ says in Matthew 13 to gather first the tares.

Matthew 13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

In Revelation 14 we see a different harvest, and we see the Lord coming on a cloud. Note that the righteous are gathered first and note that this is a fruit harvest as the unrighteous which are gathered SECOND are cast into the wrath of God. Note also that you say that Christ comes at the end of wrath only and in Revelation 14 we see He comes BEFORE WRATH.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Conclusion: You are trying to play a card game while leaving half the deck sitting on the floor. The things you say do not agree with scripture. In Revelation 14 the earth is reaped of believers first and the unrighteous gathered second are cast into the wrath of God which is on the earth.

 

[David in NJ]

Here are 2..I can give more.

2 Timothy 4:1 - At his appearing in his Kingdom
Isaiah 25:6-8 Notice in this mountain, the same mountain of Daniel 7:14
When will he swallow up death in victory? In this mountain! What does it refer to? 1 Cor 15:52-55

@rebuilder 454

Isaiah 25:9
And it will be said in that day:
“Behold, this is our God;
We have waited for Him, and He will save us.
This is the Lord;
We have waited for Him;
We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.”

= 1 Thess 1:10
"and wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

 

[The Light]

Have you ever considered Believing the LORD Jesus Christ?

JESUS said Post-Trib at least 4 times in one passage.

1st - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

2nd - Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

3rd - Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.
26“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

4th - 29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There are two raptures one before the seals are opened for the Church and one for the seed of the woman at the end of the tribulation. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest.

 

[David in NJ]

There are two raptures one before the seals are opened for the Church and one for the seed of the woman at the end of the tribulation. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest.

And now from our Sponsor = The Light-er side of things.............

 

[David in NJ]

There are two raptures one before the seals are opened for the Church and one for the seed of the woman at the end of the tribulation. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest.

@rebuilder 454 @The Light @marks @Ronald D Milam

If the shoe fits - wear it.

Can you fit Isaiah chapter 25 into 'pre-fib' rapture?

 

[marks]

fib

Not interested in continuing this with you.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Not interested in continuing this with you.

Much love!

Brother marks, Love covers a multitude of sins

If pre-trib rapture is actual Truth from Above = you should be able to show forth this 'truth' whereby ALL can SEE.

There are many who want to be Bible scholars and yet fail at the MOST IMPORTANT LEVEL of TRUTH

TRUTH = Only Believe the words that come from the Mouth of God = Matthew 4:4 and Genesis 3:1

@The Light @rebuilder 454 @marks = Ask yourselves this concerning 'pre-trib' = Is pre-trib rapture on the LEVEL with CHRIST

 

[The Light]

@rebuilder 454 @The Light @marks @Ronald D Milam

If the shoe fits - wear it.

Can you fit Isaiah chapter 25 into 'pre-fib' rapture?

Even better. Can you fit Isaiah Chapter 25 into the first day of creation?

Or can you fit Isaiah Chapter 25 into Noah's flood?

Can you fit Isaiah chapter 25 into the Garden of Eden?

I don't think you can. So I guess that means there was no 1st day of creation or Noah flood or Garden of Eden according to your logic?????????????

 

[The Light]

If pre-trib rapture is actual Truth from Above = you should be able to show forth this 'truth' whereby ALL can SEE.

No problem.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[David in NJ]

No problem.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

YES - AGREE

This does not in any way point to a pre-trib rapture.

P.S. - i hope you got a laugh out of Post #392 for that was the purpose = have some good humor

 

[David in NJ]

Even better. Can you fit Isaiah Chapter 25 into the first day of creation?

Or can you fit Isaiah Chapter 25 into Noah's flood?

Can you fit Isaiah chapter 25 into the Garden of Eden?

I don't think you can. So I guess that means there was no 1st day of creation or Noah flood or Garden of Eden according to your logic?????????????

That is your logic not mine.

If you cannot discern what Isaiah is speaking of, then how can you discern the correct timing of the rapture?????????????????

 

[David in NJ]

Not interested in continuing this with you.

Much love!

Because i love you @marks = you do not have to respond but take this to your heart in prayer to the LORD

Isaiah ch25 = SEE if you can find pre-trib rapture in it = in TRUTH and not adding a single word of your own or taking away