The 144,000 before God at the end.

[brightfame52]

So "Replacement theology" triggers you, and puts you in the attack mode????
If i was of that doctrine, i would calmly say " yes, the church has replaced israel"
( even though i would be wrong...ACCORDING to Paul)
No need to get all triggered

Fulfillment theology, so you must be trusting in the flesh theology, that God saves some men based on ethnicity. Paul renounced that mess !

 

[brightfame52]

God/Jesus do not lie, Jesus rules from Jerusalem with Israel for 1000 years. You just do not understand Prophecy it seems.

Like I said, its fulfillment theology, Israel national was a type, shadow, picture, the Church is the Fulfillment of Israel Gods Chosen People, Chosen in Christ before the foundation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Are you saying the rapture is after the Millennium?

The dead raised at the rapture is pretrib. Only the dead In Christ are raised.
After the mil is the GWT Judgement
The general resurrection where all the rest are resurrected.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Fulfillment theology, so you must be trusting in the flesh theology, that God saves some men based on ethnicity. Paul renounced that mess !

He vividly spoke of the Jews being grafted in ( around rom 11)
What do you do with those verses you recklessly call "mess".
Your fleshly attempt at omitting verses is unbiblical.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It is called replacement theology.
Those wishing to erroneously claim the church replaces Gods promise to a covenant people.
Illustrated in the ot where the wayward wife is pursued.
Israel is the wife gone awhoring.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I missed the part where the Lord said the 144,000 are symbolic. Now I did see where you said they were symbolic but you are not to be compared to the Lord.

It's just the old lack of belief that your teachers started somewhere around 400 AD. No faith in what is written.

Dave is backed into a theological corner.
His DOCTRINE fails if there is indeed a LITERAL 144k. What a quandary.

For a bible based man, truth, or the word of God, need not be changed.
Our job is to read it, report it, and enjoy what is written in harmony.
Systematic theology.
We test fit extrabiblical ideas that are pure rabbit trails, see the error and conflict, and jettison the refuse.
What that does is make men go against the bible.
This place is a feast of wrong beginnings.
If i begin correctly, it will advance me properly.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Like I said, its fulfillment theology, Israel national was a type, shadow, picture, the Church is the Fulfillment of Israel Gods Chosen People, Chosen in Christ before the foundation.

Fulfillment would be agreeing that the Jews PROPHESIED to be grafted BACK IN, is TO BE fulfilled as the WORD OF GOD states.
You can post against it.
You will never change it with labels and omissions

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I'd go a step further Ronald. I'd say parts are and parts are not. But if we said Revelation 6-20 are completely chronological in sequence, no it is not. Some chapters have a chronological component but are not sequential. Others are not and give additional information of a subject.

Makes me sick.......wrote a nice reply and it got erased by the blue stuff shading me whilst trying to correct a word. START OVER....

 

[David in NJ]

Dave is backed into a theological corner.
His DOCTRINE fails if there is indeed a LITERAL 144k. What a quandary.

For a bible based man, truth, or the word of God, need not be changed.
Our job is to read it, report it, and enjoy what is written in harmony.
Systematic theology.
We test fit extrabiblical ideas that are pure rabbit trails, see the error and conflict, and jettison the refuse.
What that does is make men go against the bible.
This place is a feast of wrong beginnings.
If i begin correctly, it will advance me properly.

Good Morning/Afternoon,

How are you doing today?

Need a cup of 'Joe'? = come on over

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I'd go a step further Ronald. I'd say parts are and parts are not.

But if we said Revelation 6-20 are completely chronological in sequence, no it is not. Some chapters have a chronological component but are not sequential. Others are not and give additional information of a subject.

Well, it has an order to it, but its not sequential. Rev. 1 is Jesus in his eternal glory. Rev. 2, 3 is the Church Age. Rev. 4, 5, 6 and 7 is the Church in Heaven before God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8. Then we get the 42 months of God's Wrath as shown in Rev. 8, 9 and 16 (15&16 is really one chapter). Everything else happens mostly inside of this 42 month period of time.

Rev. 11 is a little different, it starts 75 days before God's Wrath starts in Revelation chapter 8. You see the Two-witnesses (2W) have to show up before the DOTL in order to turn Israel back unto God or to get them to repent, that way they know to flee Judea at the AoD. Zech. 13:8-9 says 1/3 of Israel repents and then we see the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1. They arrive at the 1335, which is 75 days before the middle of the week 1260 DOTL events. The rest are much easier to diagnose.

Rev. 12 is the Dragon chasing the Woman (Israel) for 1260 days so this starts with the Rev. 8 Asteroid. Revelation 12 is the A.C./Beast ruling over Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR) for 42 months, he does not rule the whole world, he rules the E.U. and MSR only, I do not understand why people can't understand that 1/3 of the world is going to burn up, and that will be North & South America. He is not going to rule Russia nor China etc. etc.

Rev. 17 is the Beast and his 10 kings (E.U.) killing the Harlot (All False Religions) over their 42 month rule. Rev. 18 is Babylon (whole world) getting pelted by God's Wrath over a 42 month period of time, verses 8 and 10 show us this, Babylon is destroyed in ONE DAY and in ONE HOUR and both mean 42 months. We all know (most do) the DOTL lasts 42 months and in Revelation 17:12 we see the kings rule with the Beast for ONE HOUR, or 42 months.

Example #1: Rev 12 does not happen chronologically after Rev 11 ends.
Example #2: Rev 14 has a reoccurring theme if you pay attention to the rest of the work.
A. 144k precedes,
B: the command to fear God because the hour of his judgment has come, which precedes
C: Babylon falling which will precede,
D: the mark of the beast which gives to
E: those who are dead that decide to die in the Lord.
F: and finishing at the harvest

This chronologically happens, but is it sequential? What is proven is I saw, then followed, then a second angel, then I saw a third angel...showing chronology. It is up to the reader to understand and determine where this fits into the general framework of the apocalypse.

I think you misunderstand God's intended message in certain places, I will show why with Babylon below: And this is just how God delivers His messages at times that confuses us, examples coming.

And why I dont understand how Pre-Tb's miss this, read this last portion:

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Here is my question. If this event happens AFTER Babylon falls and it is a warning from the angel after that time, how is any other time BEFORE or during it considered God's wrath? It specifically says if you do this after Babylon falls, God will pour out his wrath on you. That means, he hasnt been doing it up to this point yet Pre-TB says his wrath has been happening this whole time. Then why the warning and the threat of a punishment if they are all currently experiencing God's wrath and are experiencing punishment? Riddle me this Batman! The exact same question is in Rev 11:18. It was said, and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Wait, wasnt He destroying them that destroy the earth this whole time? Or was He? According to Pre-TB and others, He was dishing out his wrath. But that disagrees with the warning from the angel and the statement in Rev 11.

Babylon Falls when God's Wrath starts and Satan is cast down to earth for 42 months. The Angel is telling us in the Harvest chapter that Babylon will fall and the 144,000 (3.5-5 million Jews in Petra) will rule from Jerusalem (Mt. Zion) with Jesus, its a painted picture of the end results of the Harvest, the Jews are not waiting for Jesus on Mt. Zion, they are still in Petra. This also has not happened yet, the Judgments must come first, we get told the RESULTS of Babylon Falling. We are also shown a FLASHBACK in vs. 14 of the Pre Trib Rapture by Jesus from upon a cloud. Then in verses 17-20 we see the Armageddon Wine-press of God's Wrath also seen in Rev. 16:19 and in Rev. 19:17-19.

So, does God really give us these types of prophesies that intermingles two different timelines and if so why? Yes, I can show this in other passages.

In Zech. 13:1-5 and 8-9 we see Israel repenting in the END TIMES. But in verses 6-7 we see Jesus dying in the house of his friends, this makes some people say this passage is about Jesus' time, not the end times, and thus they are confused. In reality Zechariah 2500 years ago showed Israel repenting in the very end times, then he intermingled (making the prophecy even more dynamic imho) how the FOUNTAIN in vs. 1 was opened and cleansed them, he shows the Messiah being killed in the house of his friends, and how this would scatter the sheep. But most of all, its about the end time Jews repenting, then for 2 verses we are basically shown whom it is that cleanses them mixed in with the passage.

Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. 7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

So, this above is Jesus and happened 500 or so years after the prophesy took place, then we see that verses 1-5 and 8-9 happen 2500 years or so later (soon to come).

Another example of this is Rev. 16. In vs. 15 we see the "I come as a Thief" scripture, I see many people say this proves so and so (I forget exactly their points now, maybe they say this proves no Pre Trib Rapture) but it does no such thing, Jesus DOES NOT show up in Vial # 7, which comes after Vial #7 as a THEIF, there is no way that can happen, we can all count (I do not plan on being here) from the time the Beast conquers Israel until he returns, that will happen exactly 1260 days after the Beast conquers Israel and the MSR. So, what gives? Well, this is another intermingled (I TOLD YOU SO REMEMBER) type of prophecy. As John is giving them the low down on how the Beast, Dragon and False Prophet trick the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD (Babylon the Great) to go to war at Armageddon, he throws in an "REMEMBER I FOREWARNED YOU ABOUT ALL THIS" line via putting in this line:

Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. {{{ The above can only be a Pre Trib Warning }}}

This does not fit in the passage per se, Jesus came as a thief at the Pre Trib Rapture, unawares from anyone knowing exactly when he was coming, thus as a THEIF, but this time everyone will know the exact day (1260 days after the Beasts rule starts) he is going to return on, so since God wrote this, gave it to Jesus, who gave it to John, God is putting this in to say, "SEE, IT TOLD YOU SO, and you would not listen" God is mocking them by inserting that line in the 6th Vials passage. Yes, Jesus is coming back at Vial #7 but NOT AS A THEIF !! That line is meant to mock those who would not heed God's warnings. Those who were always like, "Where is the promise of His coming"? Well, now God is mocking them.

The same happens with Babylon has fallen, once God starts taking back his title deed to the earth from Satan, Babylon has indeed fallen. The key is looking at all the TIMELINES properly tbh.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Like I said, its fulfillment theology, Israel national was a type, shadow, picture, the Church is the Fulfillment of Israel Gods Chosen People, Chosen in Christ before the foundation.

Wrong again, you will see very soon. It never ceases to amaze me that everyone loves trying to teach about Prophecy even when it is quite evident that they have no clue what it it really means.

 

[Hobie]

@Hobie @The Light @rebuilder 454 @marks @amigo de christo @L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d


144,000 is symbolic of the Bride of Christ, Jew & Gentile = the New Jerusalem which will come down from Heaven at His Time

Revelation 21: 9-21
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them,
HELLO = which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.


Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.
Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

Be interesting to see those gates with pearls like that, then see the throne with Christ passing out crowns to the saints..

 

[David in NJ]

Be interesting to see those gates with pearls like that, then see the throne with Christ passing out crowns to the saints..

Did you miss the LITERAL FACTUAL Statement of the LORD JESUS who clarifies for us the Symbolism of Revelation 7:1-8

“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: = Revelation 7:1-8
three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

 

[brightfame52]

He vividly spoke of the Jews being grafted in ( around rom 11)
What do you do with those verses you recklessly call "mess".
Your fleshly attempt at omitting verses is unbiblical.

Fulfillment theology, so you must be trusting in the flesh theology, that God saves some men based on ethnicity. Paul renounced that mess ! Phil 3:3-8

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

 

[brightfame52]

Fulfillment would be agreeing that the Jews PROPHESIED to be grafted BACK IN, is TO BE fulfilled as the WORD OF GOD states.
You can post against it.
You will never change it with labels and omissions

Your confidence is in the flesh !

 

[brightfame52]

Wrong again, you will see very soon. It never ceases to amaze me that everyone loves trying to teach about Prophecy even when it is quite evident that they have no clue what it it really means.

Like I said, its fulfillment theology, Israel national was a type, shadow, picture, the Church is the Fulfillment of Israel Gods Chosen People, Chosen in Christ before the foundation.

 

[brightfame52]

Wrong again, you will see very soon. It never ceases to amaze me that everyone loves trying to teach about Prophecy even when it is quite evident that they have no clue what it it really means.

Like I said, its fulfillment theology, Israel national was a type, shadow, picture, the Church is the Fulfillment of Israel Gods Chosen People, Chosen in Christ before the foundation.

 

[David in NJ]

Like I said, its fulfillment theology, Israel national was a type, shadow, picture, the Church is the Fulfillment of Israel Gods Chosen People, Chosen in Christ before the foundation.

They are looking to Israel of the flesh believing that Israel of the flesh directs God's Plan of Redemption.

When, in FACT, it has always been God directing the affairs of men(including Israel of the flesh) to bring about SALVATION.

What did Israel of the flesh do when the Promised MESSIAH(according to the Prophets) Arrived = "they murdered the JUST ONE"

You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.” - Acts ch7

 

[ewq1938]

The dead raised at the rapture is pretrib.

The dead are raised before the rapture. The rapture is post-trib according to the bible.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The dead are raised before the rapture. The rapture is post-trib according to the bible.

They are raised at the SAME TIME, that's just Paul trying to reassure them their loved ones would not be left behind in the graves. It clearly states that they all meet in the air and go to be with the Lord.