The 144,000 before God at the end.

[The Light]

It's a very interesting passage. It's seems to me to look ahead at the coming separation of wheat and weeds.

If you care to take a look, I'm interested in what you think:

The Winepress of God's Wrath

Revelation 14:18-20 KJV 18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19) And the angel...

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Much love!

The passage shows a harvest BEFORE wrath. This is the second harvest of which the 144,000 are first fruits of.

 

[marks]

The passage shows a harvest BEFORE wrath. This is the second harvest of which the 144,000 are first fruits of.

The passage shows the grain harvest and the grape harvest. The grain apparently to be gathered into the barn, the grapes cast into the winepress.

Personally, I see the 144,000 having already been translated into heaven at this point.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

The passage shows the grain harvest and the grape harvest. The grain apparently to be gathered into the barn, the grapes cast into the winepress.

Personally, I see the 144,000 having already been translated into heaven at this point.

Much love!

Yes, the 144,000 are in heaven, BEFORE the Great Tribulation. Here is the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The Great Tribulation is the 5th seal. The coming of Jesus for the harvest when He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth is the 6th seal.

I do not see this harvest as the grain and grape harvest. I see the dead in Christ as the spring barley harvest. Then the Lord return for the alive that remain at the summer wheat harvest. Together, this makes up the grain harvest.

Then the second harvest is the fruit harvest which is what we see in Revelation 14. The good fruit is gathered and the grapes in the wilderness are cast into the wrath of God.

The fig tree has two harvests and there will be two raptures. First the Gentiles and then followed by the saved 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Only the nation of Israel, those that flee to the place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God.

 

[marks]

I see the seals as announcing the beginnings of things, and are not the things themselves. That the 5th seal announces the coming persecutions, but that persecution comes after. Just like the first seal, not everything is conquered, rather, he goes out to conquer.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

All are not killed. The wine press is NOT a harvest. The harvest takes place at the 6th seal. The unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. They are NOT havested.

All are killed in the winepress. It is not a harvest, but the wrath of God. They are dead, either way. They are souls no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They all will stand before the GWT judgment, and end up in the LOF.

You still do not accept John's chronology. You want to change it to fit your own human understanding.

 

[The Light]

You still do not accept John's chronology. You want to change it to fit your own human understanding.

What is John's chronology that I do not accept?

 

[Timtofly]

What is John's chronology that I do not accept?

The harvest does not start until Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem between the 6th and 7th Seals being opened. The first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders are the final harvest.

The winepress is about those left after the final harvest. Those are the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh during the days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10 declares time is up when the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Nope
Paul has the dead in Christ PRECEEDING the living harvest of rev 14.
Only pretrib rapture fits.

Yes, the dead rise first. And that event happens at his coming and his kingdom per 2 Tim 4:1
When does Christ Kingdom come in Revelation because it doesn’t happen on a Pre-TB timeline

 

[No Pre-TB]

There it is.
Omission once again.
Sad

What is being omitted? Do you not understand what we represent?

 

[David in NJ]

Nope
Paul has the dead in Christ PRECEEDING the living harvest of rev 14.
Only pretrib rapture fits.

You are spoofed again by pre-trib!

#1 - It is impossible for pre-trib rapture to occur = read 1 Thess & 2 Thess & 1 John & Matt ch24 & OT Daniel

#2 - There is only one Second Coming whereby the "Dead in Christ rise first"

#3 - There is only one rapture that occurs AFTER the Dead in Christ Rise at His Second Coming

 

[Hobie]

144,000 is symbolic of the Body of Christ

Well, lets take a close look and see what we find as we also have the question of the 144,000 versus the Great Multitude which 'No One Could Number', so we have to look at both to get better perspective.

Some say these two groups of people are one and the same. However, there are some issues with this view.
A. The 144,000 is specifically named from the 12 tribes of Israel however, the Great Multitude comes from All Nations.

B. The Great Multitude Could Not be Numbered, however, 144,000 is a Numbered People.

C. The 144,000 is specifically said to be those that "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and are "Virgins", and "were redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14).

So the "Great Multitude" has to be all the saints that have died and are asleep in the grave and are raised up at the end, as they are held distinct from the 144,000.

Then we have what Revelation calls the "Remnant", who at the end will be a people who have certain characteristics, they keep the commandments of God and they have the testimony of Jesus, We know them as the remnant, but are they the same end time group given as the 144,000, lets keep looking.

So we put together what Daniel has at the end time for Gods people the 144,000/Remnant, lets read Daniel 12:1

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” Daniel 12:1

So we have a remnant who are a commandment keeping people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. But this remnant must go through the tribulation and “the time of trouble, such as never was”. So we have a church who are not all Gods people, composed of two groups, the true followers of God and others whose hearts and minds are not cleansed and ready for Christ.. So the church must go through a shaking in which those on the side of Satan will be taken out, the tares will be separated from the wheat, and the people who are His, prepared for Christs second coming.

We find in John 6:27 it tells us:
“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.” John 6:27

We also find in 2 Corinthians 1:21-23 (KJV)
“21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”

So the saints throughout the ages have been sealed and lie in the grave awaiting the resurrection, and we also have the 144,000/Remnant who need prepare to be sealed before the close of probation, and we see it in Revelation 22:11 where the just and the unjust are separated, and we read..
Revelation 22:11
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

And we look at Matthew 5:48 which has perplexed me for a long time, and I am sure others also. Lets read what it has to say:

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48.

In Revelation 3:21 Christ makes a promise to the church of Laodicea. “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Revelation 3:21).

So these saints of 144,000/Remnant that live at the end during the time 'such as never was', must not only overcome, but 'be perfect' much like Job to go through a unimaginable trial, and be ready to stand pure and spotless 'virgins' before God. Its a lot to take in, but scripture unveils the prophecy.

 

[Hobie]

So lets look at the 144,000 starting at Revelation 7 verse 1:

“1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
Revelation 7:1-4

Some Christians assert that the text refers to Jews only so we first need to determine whether or not this 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from their 12 respective tribes. Lets turn to Galatians 3:29 and read it:

“29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29King James Version (KJV)

Next we read from Paul, the following of who is a true Jew in Romans 2:28-29:

“28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

Next we read from James what shows that the Apostles viewed the tribes in a spiritual sense. “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad, greetings” (James 1:1). The content of James’ letter is clearly addressed to Christians, and yet he plainly refers to them as spiritual Jews from 12 spiritual tribes. So its clear that it is referring to spiritual Israel regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile by blood.

Now lets go back to see the characteristics of the 144,000. We saw in Revelation 7 in verse 3 that they are sealed, “3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

In Revelation 14 verse 1, we find the same sealing:

“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.” Revelation 14 (KJV)

So we see in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand, they have the Fathers name written in their foreheads, and they are to stand before the throne of God.

So what more description does scripture give, we find Revelation 14 verse 3-4:

“3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb..” Revelation 14:3-4 (KJV)

We see in verse 4 that these are ‘virgins’, or undefiled by the corruption Satan has out there in false doctrines or teachings. God’s end-time people are wholeheartedly dedicated to God following the Lamb wherever He goes, and we also have verse 5:
“5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” Revelation 14:5 (KJV)

So not only do the one hundred and forty-four thousand have the Fathers name written in their foreheads, and stand before the throne of God, they are "without fault before the throne of God", "perfect", even as the Father "is perfect". Thats a lot to take in....

 

[David in NJ]

Well, lets take a close look and see what we find as we also have the question of the 144,000 versus the Great Multitude which 'No One Could Number', so we have to look at both to get better perspective.

Some say these two groups of people are one and the same. However, there are some issues with this view.
A. The 144,000 is specifically named from the 12 tribes of Israel however, the Great Multitude comes from All Nations.

B. The Great Multitude Could Not be Numbered, however, 144,000 is a Numbered People.

C. The 144,000 is specifically said to be those that "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and are "Virgins", and "were redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14).

So the "Great Multitude" has to be all the saints that have died and are asleep in the grave and are raised up at the end, as they are held distinct from the 144,000.

Then we have what Revelation calls the "Remnant", who at the end will be a people who have certain characteristics, they keep the commandments of God and they have the testimony of Jesus, We know them as the remnant, but are they the same end time group given as the 144,000, lets keep looking.

So we put together what Daniel has at the end time for Gods people the 144,000/Remnant, lets read Daniel 12:1

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” Daniel 12:1

So we have a remnant who are a commandment keeping people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. But this remnant must go through the tribulation and “the time of trouble, such as never was”. So we have a church who are not all Gods people, composed of two groups, the true followers of God and others whose hearts and minds are not cleansed and ready for Christ.. So the church must go through a shaking in which those on the side of Satan will be taken out, the tares will be separated from the wheat, and the people who are His, prepared for Christs second coming.

We find in John 6:27 it tells us:
“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.” John 6:27

We also find in 2 Corinthians 1:21-23 (KJV)
“21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”

So the saints throughout the ages have been sealed and lie in the grave awaiting the resurrection, and we also have the 144,000/Remnant who need prepare to be sealed before the close of probation, and we see it in Revelation 22:11 where the just and the unjust are separated, and we read..
Revelation 22:11
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

And we look at Matthew 5:48 which has perplexed me for a long time, and I am sure others also. Lets read what it has to say:

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48.

In Revelation 3:21 Christ makes a promise to the church of Laodicea. “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Revelation 3:21).

So these saints of 144,000/Remnant that live at the end during the time 'such as never was', must not only overcome, but 'be perfect' much like Job to go through a unimaginable trial, and be ready to stand pure and spotless 'virgins' before God. Its a lot to take in, but scripture unveils the prophecy.

Did you SEE the MESSAGE that the LORD gives to us in the 12 Tribes as listed in Rev ch7 ???

This applies to all who are part of the Body of Christ.

1.	Judah	=	"I will praise the Lord"
2.	Reuben	=	"He has looked on me"
3.	Gad	=	"Granted good fortune"
4.	Asher	=	"Happy am I"
5.	Naphtali	=	"My wrestling"
6.	Manasseh	=	"Making me to forget"
7.	Simeon	=	"God hears me"
8.	Levi	=	"Joined to me"
9.	Issachar	=	"Purchased Me"
10.	Zebulun	=	"Dwelling"
11.	Joseph	=	"God will add to me"
12.	Benjamin	=	"Son of His right hand"

This is why immediately connected to the 12 Tribes are the People who make up the 12 Tribes of Heavenly Israel/Jerusalem.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

 

[Keraz]

This is why immediately connected to the 12 Tribes are the People who make up the 12 Tribes of Heavenly Israel/Jerusalem.

I fully agree.
See in Revelation 14:1-5, how it is Jesus, standing on Mt Zion, who selects the 12,000 from each of the twelve people groups, divided out of all the faithful Christians; from every tribe, race, nation and language.
This will happen soon after all of the holy Land area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord's Day of wrath. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

As 2 Thess 1:6-10 says: Jesus will reveal Himself to His own people, soon after the fiery Day of His vengeance and wrath.

 

[Hobie]

Did you SEE the MESSAGE that the LORD gives to us in the 12 Tribes as listed in Rev ch7 ???

This applies to all who are part of the Body of Christ.

1.	Judah	=	"I will praise the Lord"
2.	Reuben	=	"He has looked on me"
3.	Gad	=	"Granted good fortune"
4.	Asher	=	"Happy am I"
5.	Naphtali	=	"My wrestling"
6.	Manasseh	=	"Making me to forget"
7.	Simeon	=	"God hears me"
8.	Levi	=	"Joined to me"
9.	Issachar	=	"Purchased Me"
10.	Zebulun	=	"Dwelling"
11.	Joseph	=	"God will add to me"
12.	Benjamin	=	"Son of His right hand"

This is why immediately connected to the 12 Tribes are the People who make up the 12 Tribes of Heavenly Israel/Jerusalem.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

The list of the twelve tribes as the 144,000 basically shows the end time remnant or spiritual Israel, who have been sealed and will go through the final crisis of the mark of the beast, the time "such as never was". But notice that some are missing, it excludes Dan and includes Manasseh and then adds Joseph, but Joseph was not one of the 12 tribes and this takes out Ephraim. So why were Dan and Ephraim taken out, well the Bible gives a clue, as they were associated with the idolatrous apostasy.
Hosea 4:17
Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
2 Kings 10:29
Howbeit from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, Jehu departed not from after them, to wit, the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan.

It seems to show that God’s saints will be cleansed from all "idolatry" which if you look has a meaning of false worship or worship other than God and they stand as a pure virgins, undefiled by this apostasy and corruption. So the 144,000 is not to a literal number of Jewish tribes, but to what it signifies. The number 144,000 consists of 12 times 12 times 1,000. Twelve is a symbol of God’s people: the tribes of Israel and the church built upon the foundation of the Twelve apostles. Thus, the number 144,000 stands for the totality of God’s end time people, all of spiritual Israel (Jews and Gentiles) who are alive and ready for Christ’s return and who will be raised up and taken to Gods kingdom in heaven without seeing death, at the Second Coming.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Fulfillment theology, so you must be trusting in the flesh theology, that God saves some men based on ethnicity. Paul renounced that mess !

So "Replacement theology" triggers you, and puts you in the attack mode????
If i was of that doctrine, i would calmly say " yes, the church has replaced israel"
( even though i would be wrong...ACCORDING to Paul)
No need to get all triggered

 

[rebuilder 454]

That's the point, God uses numbers to identify things, in code. This shouldn't be hard for a Christian, unless they are just purposely being obtuse.

So, the 10 Commandments stand in for all God's Laws, the 10 Plagues represent Complete Judgment, the 10 days of tribulation via Smyrna in Rev. 2:10 = the Complete Church Age, not 10 days. The 10 Horns/Toes in Daniel represent Complete Europe Reuniting, you still looking for 10 Kings? That is why you can not see what it really means, God was not going to give Satan a heads up on the true numbers on anything, thus the 144,000 and The Woman represent Israel. The Romans (as I have shown you time and again, and you ignore it because it defeats your spin) would have destroyed any documents saying Israel was going to rule the whole world, and they would have killed those church members for treason. For some reason you either can not grasp this or pretend you do not understand the point. That is also why God used Babylon when saying He was going to judge the world, Rome thought they were the "World" and would not have allowed that to have been taught.

The 10 Virgins represent the Complete Church, of course, 10 = Completeness. The number 7 = Divine Completion, that is why 7 is used in the book pf Revelation over and over, that is why there are 7 Beasts with 10 Heads. Thus the 144,000 is a CODE just like the Woman is a CODE, you not understanding that changes nothing, its sad really your pride stops you from being taught proper Prophecy.


I am nigh near placing you on ignore, when you get to heaven and see you were wrong it will be too late then to use these truths. And you will be asked why you would not heed those callee unto Prophecy.


I understand the End Times better than anyone you ever met. You do not.

Carry on, just do not reply to me anymore, I have too much to do to waste time on people who have no capacity to listen.

You can not discern a parable ( a story within a story) from a literal, vivid, exact description, of a literal ethnic group?

 

[rebuilder 454]

The harvest does not start until Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem between the 6th and 7th Seals being opened. The first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders are the final harvest.

The winepress is about those left after the final harvest. Those are the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh during the days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10 declares time is up when the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

there are several parts to harvest. The fact that we see "firstfruits" automatically divides harvest into several stages.
The parable of the wedding feast details that not all are brought in at one time.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are spoofed again by pre-trib!

#1 - It is impossible for pre-trib rapture to occur = read 1 Thess & 2 Thess & 1 John & Matt ch24 & OT Daniel

#2 - There is only one Second Coming whereby the "Dead in Christ rise first"

#3 - There is only one rapture that occurs AFTER the Dead in Christ Rise at His Second Coming

You will never be able to
change rev 14 to get traction on the "spoof" (your word) that you promote.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Has any non pretribber unpacked rev 14?
Or, are you able to point me to some postrib teacher on youtube that mentions rev 14?
Would love to see their views.
( i would be amazed if they mention what destroys their doctrine)