The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Truther]

Per the OP, you just said the book of Rev has a problem.

Don't you worry, God can fix your problem.

All Jews are backslid.

God knows who they are.

All will be saved per Jer 31.

No "missing" tribes to God.

 

[David in NJ]

This is what happens when you make the first part of the trib a doctrinal pivot.
That is all you are doing.

pre-trib is a man-made doctrinal pivot that turns you away from the Truth

Pivot back to the Truth = Matthew ch24

 

[rwb]

Bro, I see the NT Church of faithful obedient saints in the 144,000 of Revelation 14. Unlike Revelation 7, there is no mention of tribes, and they follow the Lamb, clear allusions to the NT Church. They also sing a new song, which is true only of the New Testament Church.

Thus the faithful obedient saints of the NT Church in Revelation 14, combined with the faithful obedient saints of the OT in Revelation 7, comprise the entirety of God's Chosen People through the ages.

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. But I view the 144,000 representing the Old Covenant faithful remnant, then together with the great innumerable multitude. One body of Christ, one people, Christians from old and new. Then in Rev 14, these are firstfruits of God (Old Covenant remnant) to ascend to heaven are pictured again just prior to the Gospel being sent unto all the earth.

Revelation 14:6 (KJV) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

The 144,000 remnant of old represented by the symbolic 144,000, and the great innumerable multitude from all the nations of the world, together complete the body of Christ in heaven saved by the blood of the Lamb. Prior to the cross, and resurrection only the remnant of Old were saved. Then after Christ atoned for sin and defeated death an innumerable number from all the nations of the earth.

 

[rwb]

yes.
ethnic Jews.
vividly portrayed as a literal group of earth's inhabitants.
Then those same ethnic Jews in heaven, later on, as glorified believers worshipping at the throne of God. (rev 14).
They are relatively small in number because they are designate "first fruits" (a small percentage of main harvest Jews.)

That is how it reads without additives, dilutants, or a need for it to be something it is not.
Just sayin

I would argue Christian Jews who were saved by grace through faith believing the prophets that prophesy of the Messiah who would come to redeem them. I too believe they are since the coming of Christ as a man, with Him in heaven. And they represent the firstfruits of Christ to ascend to heaven spiritually alive.

 

[rwb]

They are firstfruit Jews.
That means main harvest Jews follow.
The trib is "jacobs trouble/Israels trouble"
If you leave out romans 11, the entire Jewish harvest is confused.
You are looking at rom 11 harvest of Jews.
(that is WHY they are EXPLICITLY called and depicted as ETHNIC Jews)
144k are not in ANY way the church. They ARE messianic ethnic Jews.

They are the firstfruits of Christ, not an ethnic people, but a spiritual people. Which is why in Rev 14 they are depicted as being in heaven spiritually alive. Yes, these Old Covenant faith saints were Jewish, but more importantly than that, they were of faith, believing Christ could come to redeem them from death. And Christ did come so they are the firstfruits of Christ to ascend with Him spiritually to heaven. No different than what Paul tells us in 1Cor 15:20. Since Christ is risen from the dead He became the firstfruits of physically dead saints.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Before Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection, He first descended into the place of physically dead saints. Then Christ took them spiritually alive with Him to heaven when He ascended to the Father there.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things).

"They ARE messianic ethnic Jews." Exactly, I wholeheartedly agree! And they are indeed the Church of Old, or the Church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

[rebuilder 454]

They are the firstfruits of Christ, not an ethnic people, but a spiritual people. Which is why in Rev 14 they are depicted as being in heaven spiritually alive. Yes, these Old Covenant faith saints were Jewish, but more importantly than that, they were of faith, believing Christ could come to redeem them from death. And Christ did come so they are the firstfruits of Christ to ascend with Him spiritually to heaven. No different than what Paul tells us in 1Cor 15:20. Since Christ is risen from the dead He became the firstfruits of physically dead saints.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Before Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection, He first descended into the place of physically dead saints. Then Christ took them spiritually alive with Him to heaven when He ascended to the Father there.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things).

"They ARE messianic ethnic Jews." Exactly, I wholeheartedly agree! And they are indeed the Church of Old, or the Church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

I'm just telling you what the Bible says if you want to believe all that other that you've inserted it's up to you

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

144k are not in ANY way the church. They ARE messianic ethnic Jews.

They won't get it no matter what you present to them ... Ah what the heck, I'll give it more shot.
The most obvious clue here is the context of the 144k in Rev
7.
Rev.7:4-8 specifically describe _ by name 12 tribes _ with a specific number. THE NEXT VERSE REVEALS A DIFFERENT GROUP ENTIRELY.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; Rev. 7:9

The first group is numbered. They are of Jewish decent.
The second group cannot be numbered (in the billions) from every race.

 

[David in NJ]

They won't get it no matter what you present to them ... Ah what the heck, I'll give it more shot.
The most obvious clue here is the context of the 144k in Rev
7.
Rev.7:4-8 specifically describe _ by name 12 tribes _ with a specific number. THE NEXT VERSE REVEALS A DIFFERENT GROUP ENTIRELY.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; Rev. 7:9

The first group is numbered. They are of Jewish decent.
The second group cannot be numbered (in the billions) from every race.

The evidence you just presented argues against your limited understanding and again points to the One New Man in Christ.

Your only hope is to try and find a OT Prophecy that directly speaks of 144k jews of the flesh being separate from the Body of Christ.

Your other dilemma is that your religion creates TWO separate Wives for Christ, which is another heresy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

They won't get it no matter what you present to them ... Ah what the heck, I'll give it more shot.
The most obvious clue here is the context of the 144k in Rev
7.
Rev.7:4-8 specifically describe _ by name 12 tribes _ with a specific number. THE NEXT VERSE REVEALS A DIFFERENT GROUP ENTIRELY.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; Rev. 7:9

The first group is numbered. They are of Jewish decent.
The second group cannot be numbered (in the billions) from every race.

yep
only a literal ascribing fits.
144k is so specific and small compared to the entirety of the church.
It is silly to spiritualize it, however, it proves that trying to make it some spiritual leap , tells even the densest of students, they are out of gas.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The evidence you just presented argues against your limited understanding and again points to the One New Man in Christ.

Your only hope is to try and find a OT Prophecy that directly speaks of 144k jews of the flesh being separate from the Body of Christ.

Your other dilemma is that your religion creates TWO separate Wives for Christ, which is another heresy.

They are Jewish believers. Messianic Jews.
they are part of the body of Christ. Obviously so.
They are FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
They are FIRST. THEY PRECEDE main harvest of Jews.
Read it. That is ALL it says.
You are adding to it.
Actually destroying what is written in a book that it is forbidden to do so.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The evidence you just presented argues against your limited understanding and again points to the One New Man in Christ.

Your only hope is to try and find a OT Prophecy that directly speaks of 144k jews of the flesh being separate from the Body of Christ.

Your other dilemma is that your religion creates TWO separate Wives for Christ, which is another heresy.ermeneutics

The common sense golden rule if Bible interpretation is:
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

 

[David in NJ]

They are Jewish believers. Messianic Jews.
they are part of the body of Christ. Obviously so.
They are FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
They are FIRST. THEY PRECEDE main harvest of Jews.
Read it. That is ALL it says.
You are adding to it.
Actually destroying what is written in a book that it is forbidden to do so.

Where is the evidence of what you claim?

 

[David in NJ]

The common sense golden rule if Bible interpretation is:
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

Currently, you are rejecting the Holy Spirit Plain Sense of the Gospel = John ch1 and Ephesians ch2 and Revelation ch1-ch6

 

[David in NJ]

The common sense golden rule if Bible interpretation is:
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),
founder of The Biblical Research Society

"unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”

As pointed out to you and others, the LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostles indicated for us = "clearly otherwise" of your view

 

[No Pre-TB]

They are Jewish believers. Messianic Jews.
they are part of the body of Christ. Obviously so.
They are FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
They are FIRST. THEY PRECEDE main harvest of Jews.
Read it. That is ALL it says.
You are adding to it.
Actually destroying what is written in a book that it is forbidden to do so.

1. There is no difference between Jew or Gentile in Christ. Stop separating the body.
2. Yes, they are part of the body which you are separating. There is no Gentile Christian and messianic Christian and Jewish Christian. There is Christian only. First called to our forefathers in Antioch. Anyone in Christ in a Jew per Paul.
3. They are first fruits (period). Anyone in Christ that He recognizes.

If the 144k are literal Jews, they are literally virgins which would be a requirement to be part of the first fruits; something not true.
The problem with Pre-TB hermeneutics, they go to such an extreme of taking it all literally, they fail to see when its hyperbole, simile, figurative, symbolic or other. What is the rule? Take it all literally unless what? Unless it's outlandish? Yep. If it's out of the ordinary? Yep.

Perhaps this writer's response will satisfy, maybe not.

Now, to limit the answer to the Israelitish Christians is to break in abruptly upon the general flow of thought with a bold literalism. The sealed ones are explained to be the servants of God; the description which follows proclaims them to be the “Israel of God.” It would be a strange leap away from the subject to introduce a sudden limitation of thought. Nor is there any necessity for doing so. Israelitish and Jewish names are freely adopted by the sacred writers, and used in a spiritual sense without any explanation of such usage; and the Apostle most emphatically laid down the principle that “he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter” (Romans 2:28-29); and the principle he applies by affirming that in Christ “there is neither Jew nor Greek” (Galatians 3:28). The Christian Church absorbs the Jewish, inherits her privileges, and adopts, with wider and nobler meaning, her phraseology. She has her Jerusalem, but it is a heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22): a Jerusalem from above (Galatians 4:26): a new Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2; see Revelation 3:12); and to that Jerusalem of God the true Israel of God, the chosen generation and royal priesthood of every age, turn the eye of faith. It is needless to say that this view does not rob, as it has been said, the Jew of God’s promises; it only intensifies those promises by showing the growth of that Church in which the Jew may yet find the truest consummation of his holiest and highest hopes, and into which God is yet able to graft them in again (Romans 11:23; Romans 11:25-26),

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Currently, you are rejecting the Holy Spirit Plain Sense of the Gospel = John ch1 and Ephesians ch2 and Revelation ch1-ch6

The Holy Spirit an I have a cooperative relationship. I doubt I grieve Him too much. He has truly enlightened my understanding of scripture for tha past 32 years.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

"unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”

As pointed out to you and others, the LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostles indicated for us = "clearly otherwise" of your view

And the truth is revealed in the immediate context that distinguishes two groups in Rev. 7, clearly and literally presented, one right after the other. But you are stuck on symbolism that's not there. Keep it.

 

[David in NJ]

And the truth is revealed in the immediate context that distinguishes two groups in Rev. 7, clearly and literally presented, one right after the other. But you are stuck on symbolism that's not there. Keep it.

Sorry to break your idol but the LORD only established One Group/New Man as His Body and this has been made clear from:
a.) Gospel
b.) Apostles
c.) Revelation
d.) OT Prophecy

Just as there are no 'pre-trib' rapture verses/declarations in Scripture, so also you cannot find a declaration of a specific group of 144k flesh Jews in the Gospel, the Apostles writings, the OT Prophets.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

So, you don't believe God has the power to survive bloodlines of these tribes throughout the generations? They were physically scattered, broken up as tribes, yet individually,

No tribes were ever lost, this is why we can't answer people like this, specifically, we just do not do the grunt work. So, who are the tribes? The Men & Women/Children of course. So, why did God allow the Northern Kingdoms to be toted off ? 1.) The loved wickedness/evil 2.) God never gave Israel permission to divide the nation, He did not even want to give them a king tbh. So, in Isaiah God says He has saved Himself 7000 men, which is a code that means 1/3 of the end to me Jews will not bow to Satan. And in Ezekiel 37 God says he will bring the whole house of Israel back into the land when He revives them.

Its real simple, the Northern Kingdom had many "Godly people" who hated the kings and the evil so they chose to live in Judea, many worked in Jerusalem, so Judea had SEED from all 12 tribes living there when the 10 tribes were toted off, no tribes were ever lost, God says as much, He said he will bring the whole house of Israel back into the land, not only Judeans, BUT.....but, but, why are the called Jews? Because for their last 600-700 years they lived in Judea !! That is why I am an American, even though my people came from England 200 years ago or less. No tribes were ever lost, the Jews who were killed during WW2 were ALL 12 Tribes being killed.

So, overall you understand God will keep Hos word, but its an easy explanation to those who just can't believe that God will keep His promises.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

We have things becoming very clear and unveiling right before our eyes in these last days, so lets take a look at those who will be standing before God as the 144,000..

The Church is represented by 10 (Completion) Virgin Brides who do not have to be virgins, we are virgins in Christ who has purified us. Likewise there is n o 144,000 it like the 10 virgins is a representation of all the Jews who come to Christ, but they have the Fathers name in their foreheads, meanwhile we will marry the Lamb.

Rev. 14 is "The Harvest Chapter": The Church is seen in vs. 14 in a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture, movies can flashback, so can God in chapters. As a matter of fact Zech. 13 is about the end times, but verses 6-7 is a flashback to Jesus' death. The Jews will not even be at Mt. Zion, that just represents the Kingdom Age promise, they will be in hiding in the Petra/Bozrah area, its mere prose, showing who rules with Jesus, as human being, during the Kingdom Age, the Jews (144,000) are the First-fruits of the Jews, they are the Wheat that grows together with the tares until the end (2nd coming). We the Church are not the wheat, we are the Barley First-fruits which can be sifted without being crushed. Lastly we see the Wicked harvested in verses 17-20. Don't overthink it.