T U L I P explained

[One 2 question]

Yes ! Saving faith is a gift that comes from God.

In a manner yes. We cannot come to Jesus unless we are drawn to Him by god the Father. That is clearly stated in John 6. And as Jesus also said, all who come to Him, He will not cast out. so god draws us.

So if a person hears about God's mercy and His grace, goes to God and accepts His mercy and His grace in His Son Jesus then God will not cast him out but will give them His grace?

Because it is God who chooses who will or won't Gods will is sovereign! Man cannot counter what God commands.

So God has chosen some, making His mercy and grace irresistible exclusively to them only.

And to many God has chosen NOT to make His mercy and grace known, making it not appealing and therefore resistable.

Correct. Let me give you one passage that shows that God did not and does not choose everyone.

Eph. 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Gentiles in OT times unless they became proselytes to Judaism, were without hope and without God in the world.

God's elected/chosen people, these being the commonwealth of Israel with whom He made exclusive covenants, giving them hope in their God to fulfil His covenants with them.

Ok, at some time in the history of mankind God broke down the divide between these people He had formerly chosen/elected and everyone else?

So from that point on He had chosen everyone or still only those of the commonwealth of Israel?

Today there are more than 3.5 billion people minimum who have never heard the gospel once. these are lost people for apart from teh gospel- no one can be saved.

So God cannot present Himself to those outside the commonwealth of Israel or He can? And if He can, it is only by means of a message sent by a human messenger?

I'm trying to get a picture of the God of your understanding. What He can and cannot do. His character. What His interest is in and purpose of His creation.

 

[PinSeeker]

Does this mean God will make believers believe?

No, they believe on their own, but when their hearts are regenerated... born again of the Spirit of God.

Are you saying that God will draw people to believe in Jesus by making His grace so attractive that they can't but accept it, making it irresistible?

No, that because ~ in this regenerative act ~ they are then spiritually alive, are healed of this spiritual blindness, and they then know their sinfulness and their need for Christ redemption to God, Whom they now love. As John says, we love because He first loved us. And this love is far, far more than... a "warm fuzzy feeling." :)

How can you be so confident that every single person God elects will be drawn to God (God's grace)?

Well, it's by the grace of God, meaning fully because of His action toward us. The confidence is that it is God's purpose of election; the people who are God's elect are His elect whom He has purposed to save, and God's purposes cannot be thwarted. So the confidence is in God, not in ourselves.

So Jesus wasn't interested in choosing everyone?

He was interested in doing the will of the Father, and the Father has given certain ones ~ His elect ~ to Jesus, not everyone. As Jesus Himself said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day..."

Even so, though, we know (because we are told in the Bible) that "God our Savior... desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4). So in that sense, the answer to your question would be a resounding 'no.' In the case of salvation, God's desire are not congruous with His purpose; His purpose takes precedence over His desire.

Jesus didn't want everyone to go forth and bear fruit? And Jesus didn't want everyone to ask of the Father in His name, that he may give it them?

Hmmm, well, I'm sure He did, and His outward invitation was given to all without discrimination. But He knew very well that not everyone would, but only those whom the Father had given Him (see above).

So if a person hears about God's mercy and His grace, goes to God and accepts His mercy and His grace in His Son Jesus then God will not cast him out but will give them His grace?

Ah, well, I would say, O2Q, that if that person "goes to God and accepts His mercy and His grace in His Son Jesus," He has already been the recipient of God's mercy, and thus born again of the Spirit. This is why he accepts.

So God has chosen some, making His mercy and grace irresistible exclusively to them only.

Well, yes, but you seem to be still misunderstanding this irresistibility, Here is what John Calvin actually wrote/said about this grace of God:

"The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by His Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom He has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant... it is entirely the work of grace and a benefit conferred by it that our heart is changed from a stony one to one of flesh, that our will is made new, and that we, created anew in heart and mind, at length will what we ought to will."

...at some time in the history of mankind God broke down the divide between these people He had formerly chosen/elected and everyone else? So from that point on He had chosen everyone or still only those of the commonwealth of Israel? So God cannot present Himself to those outside the commonwealth of Israel or He can? And if He can, it is only by means of a message sent by a human messenger?

God's Israel was never based on ethnicity. Even in the Old Testament Israel contained some foreigners, foreshadowing the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles. True Jews really were always those ~ regardless of ethnicity ~ who were/are Jews inwardly, with a circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit. And these are God's elect, and together all His Israel, people of the household of God.

I'm trying to get a picture of the God of your understanding. What He can and cannot do. His character. What His interest is in and purpose of His creation.

Everything God does is for His own glory. :) Our chief end, of course, is to glorify Him and enjoy Him forever. :)

Grace and peace to you, O2Q.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So if a person hears about God's mercy and His grace, goes to God and accepts His mercy and His grace in His Son Jesus then God will not cast him out but will give them His grace?

Absolutely!

So God has chosen some, making His mercy and grace irresistible exclusively to them only.

And to many God has chosen NOT to make His mercy and grace known, making it not appealing and therefore resistable.

Well I can't answer to the irresistible and appealing part- for God has to make it appealing. As Paul wrote in Corinth. to the natural man, the gospel is foolishness.

but if God did not choose some to salvation, no one would ever be saved!

Every year millions die without ever hearing the gospel even once- thus not even getting a chance to be saved! We must remember god is not under some obligation to make sure everyone hears and everyone does not hear. right now it is estimated over 3 billion will die without ever hearing the gospel and thus never getting a chance to be saved

God's elected/chosen people, these being the commonwealth of Israel with whom He made exclusive covenants, giving them hope in their God to fulfil His covenants with them.

Ok, at some time in the history of mankind God broke down the divide between these people He had formerly chosen/elected and everyone else?

So from that point on He had chosen everyone or still only those of the commonwealth of Israel?

Israel is gods elect covenanted nation. but that does not mean every Jew is saved automatically. They are still gods covenanted nation but for now, since Pentecost and until the rapture, God is building the church, the bride of Jesus. which is comprised of both Jew and Gentile.

So God cannot present Himself to those outside the commonwealth of Israel or He can? And if He can, it is only by means of a message sent by a human messenger?

I'm trying to get a picture of the God of your understanding. What He can and cannot do. His character. What His interest is in and purpose of His creation.

God can do what He wishes, but He confined Himself to what He says in His Word.
.

 

[One 2 question]

God can do what He wishes, but He confined Himself to what He says in His Word.

I would say that God wishes, desires, plans then reveals parts of this to whomever He wants. Most would be hidden in Him to this day and never expressed, let alone documented.

So if you are refering to 'His Word' as the bible, which I'm thinking you aren't, then it would be the other way around. The little that has been documented is confined to His wishes that are ongoing and endless. The bible certainly isn't endless, as some humans foolishly decided to close off the documenting of God's revealed wishes.

 

[PinSeeker]

I would say that God wishes, desires, plans then reveals parts of this to whomever He wants.

Is it not possible, O2Q, to desire something but then...

...for good reason... in the case of "desiring all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" to not overlooking sin or allowing it to go without consequence (even the one He himself sets as death) and thereby compromising His perfect justice​

...not purpose or act on or fulfill that desire? Even to purpose or act against that desire? Certainly it is...

Most would be hidden in Him to this day and never expressed, let alone documented. So if you are refering to 'His Word' as the bible, which I'm thinking you aren't, then it would be the other way around. The little that has been documented is confined to His wishes that are ongoing and endless. The bible certainly isn't endless, as some humans foolishly decided to close off the documenting of God's revealed wishes.

A strange line of "reasoning" indeed.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I would say that God wishes, desires, plans then reveals parts of this to whomever He wants. Most would be hidden in Him to this day and never expressed, let alone documented.

So if you are refering to 'His Word' as the bible, which I'm thinking you aren't, then it would be the other way around. The little that has been documented is confined to His wishes that are ongoing and endless. The bible certainly isn't endless, as some humans foolishly decided to close off the documenting of God's revealed wishes.

God has not revealed what He will do in eternity, nor what He will do every moment of every day in the heart and affairs of men.

but He bound HImself to the principles found in His word and will not violate them. The bible is the full revelation of what God chose to reveal to man. Any revelation that would contradict what is written is demonic.

 

[One 2 question]

No, they believe on their own, but when their hearts are regenerated... born again of the Spirit of God.

So God has no involvement in this part of the process? He sets a trap as it were and waits for people to take the bait. Once they do, then He begins the work of regenerating their heart by His Spirit.

No, that because ~ in this regenerative act ~ they are then spiritually alive, are healed of this spiritual blindness, and they then know their sinfulness and their need for Christ redemption to God, Whom they now love. As John says, we love because He first loved us. And this love is far, far more than... a "warm fuzzy feeling." :)

Ok

Well, it's by the grace of God, meaning fully because of His action toward us. The confidence is that it is God's purpose of election; the people who are God's elect are His elect whom He has purposed to save, and God's purposes cannot be thwarted. So the confidence is in God, not in ourselves.

absolutely

He was interested in doing the will of the Father, and the Father has given certain ones ~ His elect ~ to Jesus, not everyone. As Jesus Himself said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day..."

Even so, though, we know (because we are told in the Bible) that "God our Savior... desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4). So in that sense, the answer to your question would be a resounding 'no.' In the case of salvation, God's desire are not congruous with His purpose; His purpose takes precedence over His desire.

So His desire and purpose aren't the same? They are in conflict with eachother? God desired all humans to be a part of His never ending kingdom but made a plan that makes sure this desire is not fulfilled.
Or are you saying God made an unemotional plan, made it a legal binding document then later His emotions kicked in where He now desires all to be redeemed to Him.
But now it's too late. He can't change His mind as He is subject to His Authorities who ensure these plans are adhered to otherwise God will be subject to ........consequences, pinishment hand down by who?

Hmmm, well, I'm sure He did, and His outward invitation was given to all without discrimination. But He knew very well that not everyone would, but only those whom the Father had given Him (see above).

Are you saying that the Divine sovereign Gardener can't make one of His trees bear fruit? He can only invite or encourage His child to change their ways and become like His Son. God is a helpless bystander who can simply cheer on His child on sports day but has no right to intervene and ensure the outcome He desires?

Ah, well, I would say, O2Q, that if that person "goes to God and accepts His mercy and His grace in His Son Jesus," He has already been the recipient of God's mercy, and thus born again of the Spirit. This is why he accepts.

Yes, the work of the sent Spirit hey. Thank God He was sent otherwise all will not be entering Father's kingdom.

Well, yes, but you seem to be still misunderstanding this irresistibility, Here is what John Calvin actually wrote/said about this grace of God:

"The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by His Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom He has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant... it is entirely the work of grace and a benefit conferred by it that our heart is changed from a stony one to one of flesh, that our will is made new, and that we, created anew in heart and mind, at length will what we ought to will."


God's Israel was never based on ethnicity. Even in the Old Testament Israel contained some foreigners, foreshadowing the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles. True Jews really were always those ~ regardless of ethnicity ~ who were/are Jews inwardly, with a circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit. And these are God's elect, and together all His Israel, people of the household of God.

To be honest, personally I don’t really care what John Calvin concludes if he has his beliefs and interpretations based on an extremly limited resource, the bible.

Everything God does is for His own glory. :) Our chief end, of course, is to glorify Him and enjoy Him forever. :)

Grace and peace to you, O2O2Q.

Yes and all for His pleasure.

 

[PinSeeker]

So God has no involvement in this part of the process?

How do you get any inkling that I somehow said or implied that? The Father wills, the Son accomplishes according to the Father's will, and the Spirit works in the individual, also according to the Father's will. So God ~ all three Persons of the triune God ~ are always involved.

He sets a trap as it were and waits for people to take the bait.

<eye roll> No... <smile>

Once they do, then He begins the work of regenerating their heart by His Spirit.

The Father wills, and upon the person's hearing (faith comes by hearing), at the appointed time, the Spirit works in the person's heart ~ changes the heart of stone to a heart of flesh ~ which is bring the person from death in sin to life in Christ.

So His desire and purpose aren't the same?

Just like anyone even humanly speaking, O2Q, God does not always fulfill His own desires. And regarding God in this case for good reason ~ He would be compromising His own justice and even compromising Himself.

They are in conflict with each other?

Well, from a human perspective, maybe in some wooden sense... <smile>

God desired all humans to be a part of His never ending kingdom but made a plan that makes sure this desire is not fulfilled.

Ugh. <smile>

Or are you saying God made an unemotional plan, made it a legal binding document then later His emotions kicked in where He now desires all to be redeemed to Him.

Ugh. <smile>

But now it's too late. He can't change His mind as He is subject to His Authorities who ensure these plans are adhered to otherwise God will be subject to ........consequences,

Ugh. <smile>

His purpose takes precedence over His desire. No human being deserves God's salvation; in fact quite the opposite is true. But, God has mercy and compassion on some, extending His grace ~ unmerited favor ~ to these, His elect. This may seem "hard" or "harsh," from our perspective, but God is God and we are not.

Are you saying that the Divine sovereign Gardener can't make one of His trees bear fruit? He can only invite or encourage His child to change their ways and become like His Son.

I'm just going to post some Scripture and ask for your take on it, One2Question. Here you go:

"Thus says the Lord God: ...I will vindicate the holiness of My great name... when through you I vindicate my holiness... I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God" (Ezekiel 36:22-28)​

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory" (Ephesians 1:3-14).​

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:1-10)​

God is a helpless bystander who can simply cheer on His child on sports day but has no right to intervene and ensure the outcome He desires?

Ugh. <smile>

This is really not that hard, One2Question. <smile>

Yes, the work of the sent Spirit hey. Thank God He was sent otherwise all will not be entering Father's kingdom.

Not all will; only those who are called. Now, if by 'all will not be' you are instead... or more clearly... saying that in the same sense as 'none would be,' then yes, you're exactly right.

To be honest, personally I don’t really care what John Calvin concludes if he has his beliefs and interpretations based on an extremely limited resource, the bible.

Hm. Well alrighty then. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[One 2 question]

Not all will; only those who are called. Now, if by 'all will not be' you are instead... or more clearly... saying that in the same sense as 'none would be,' then yes, you're exactly right.

Many will be called but only a few chosen out for a particular role and function. Chosen from every tongue, tribe, people and nation. Chosen to be members of their Redeemer's body. Elected according to Their eternal purpose to now in this age reveal Their manifold wisdom to the unseen spirit audience. Then these Chosen elect will reign on this earth with Christ in His kingdom. Before entering their promised home land, home city.

The twist in this, God's story, is beyond amazing. After the Chosen ones have entered their rest in their Holy City, those who the Creators have always desired to save, redeem, reconcile to Themselves will repent and receive Their mercy and finding Their grace irresistible will enter into God's neverending kingdom. What a Saviour is Jesus our Lord Who will save all thus fulfilling His desire to save ALL.

 

[One 2 question]

His purpose takes precedence over His desire. No human being deserves God's salvation; in fact quite the opposite is true. But, God has mercy and compassion on some, extending His grace ~ unmerited favor ~ to these, His elect. This may seem "hard" or "harsh," from our perspective, but God is God and we are not.

Yes I agree. It does sound harsh. But He's the potter, we are just the clay He created.

Yet the story obviously doesn't end there. For a long time I had pushed the stop button on this blockbuster movie. The movie of God's never ending story. Thankfully a few years ago God pushed the play button and I was able to watch more of this incredible story. Further on from what God showed John, I saw those who were judged and condemned repent, and turning to their Creators they received God's favour.

Satan led the way and not only received forgiveness but was fully restored and elevated to sit at Father's left. What a brilliant revelation this was. A revelation of my God's character of LOVE displayed to all who He created. Again, My Creators loved Their enemies and laid it out for all to see when They redeemed them ALL!