Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days and 2 future raptures separated by 1000 years+?

[TrevorHL]

Greetings PS95,

I didn't know that Christadelphians were in agreement with this mainstream disp pre-trib eschatology.

We do not agree with "dispensation" concepts or label as supported by a number of denominations, such as some Evangelicals.

But then again, JWs and you guys share commonalities and JWs also believe in a secret rapture but theirs already supposedly happened in 1919.

Our views were more or less consolidated when John Thomas wrote his book "Elpis Israel" published in 1850 well before the JWs and SDAs appeared on the scene, or who were in some way consolidated into a group.

Do you also believe in 2 2nd comings like Jws and pre-tribbers do here?

Only one coming, but successive revealing to the Household of Faith, then mainly to the Jewish nation with events surrounding Armageddon and elsewhere, and also to the nations as a parallel result of this process. Some in our fellowship suggest that this process could take 40 years of transition, not a sudden event as held by JWs and SDAs. The JWs more or less consider only a lesser class of JWs apart from the 144.000 will survive on the earth and the rest of mankind destroyed. The SDAs believe that mainly only the SDAs will be saved and taken to heaven while the rest of mankind is destroyed and the earth is burnt and desolate for the 1000 years.

We believe in the faithful being on earth with Jesus reigning from the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem, and a significant remnant of natural Israel converted becoming the first dominion and the nations subjected and learning the ways of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WPM]

Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite,


I did not respond to the detail as I was busy. I briefly posted at 7:29 AM and 11:56 AM during a busy Saturday morning here in NSW Australia. I will attempt to respond to some of this detail now, possibly late evening New York time 12:30 PM and evening California time 9:30 PM. My next available time will be after 6 PM Sunday.

Yes.

This is superimposing events from the start of the 1000 years to the end of the 1000 years. Such logic is not valid. I do not accept the "rapture" as often advocated.

Not sure why you claim this. The transition between the end of the 1000 years and the period beyond will be relatively smooth despite the rebellion mentioned. There will be another "New Heaven and Earth", but this is again symbolic language. The earth will endure, inhabited by both the faithful from before the 1000 years and those numerous faithful gleaned throughout the 1000 year reign of Jesus, possibility a greater harvest than from the first 6000 years.

I do not know why you ask this. There will be a judgement of these millennial mortals at the end of the 1000 years and many will be accepted and possibly a small minority rejected.

No problem here whatsoever:
Luke 21:28 (KJV): And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Romans 8:19–23 (KJV): 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (KJV):13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I am not sure how you define Posttrib Premils and Pretrib Premils and I am not sure of what category represents my position. Yes I believe in 2 fut
ure resurrections, one at the return of Christ covering the "responsible" (not all mankind Daniel 12:1-3) who have lived during the first 6000 years and one at the end of the 1000 years for those who have died during the 1000 years. I do not accept the so-called "rapture" at the beginning of the 1000 years and the circumstances are different at the end of the 1000 years.

Not much to respond to here. There is not much detail about the events at the end of the 1000 years, but why both of you insist that this detail must be a repetition of what happens at the beginning of the 1000 years does not seem at all valid.

The last days mentioned in Isaiah 2:1-4 relate to the events surrounding the second coming of Jesus. There will be no more war as a result of the reestablishment of the Throne of David in Jerusalem.

I do not see that the detail supports your assessment here. Also the parallel passage in Micah 4:1-8 also contains detail about the restoration and conversion of natural Israel.

The "New Heavens and Earth" of Isaiah 65:17-25 apply to the new order of things at the beginning of the 1000 years, while Revelation 21 speaks of the end of the 1000 years.

The new heaven and earth are figurative, but the detail of death in Isaiah 65:17-25 is literal and "no death" in Revelation 21 is also literal.

They inhabit the earth during their mortality. Their hope of immortality will be future at the end of the 1000 years.

I need to balance the "all" here with Isaiah 2:1-4 where it speaks of some beating their swords into ploughs.

This is very clear in the detail of the nations before and during the 1000 years.

Yes, as a teaching medium, looking back to Christ and his sacrifice.

It speaks of the return of Jesus and events leading up to the full establishment of the Kingdom.

I have answered most of these questions while consuming a very nice fish that my son caught this morning. No tariffs on this fish.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks for the reply.

But how do mortal believers move from mortality to immortality at the end of your future millennium? You steer around this. You are totally avoiding the issue at hand in this thread. After all, the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5) at the end of the millennium. If there are mortal believers that are saved in your future millennium, how are they glorified to enter into a perfect glorified you having a new earth? You do not address this. Surely, they are not going to pass away when the earth passes away?

Amils connect the earth fleeing away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5) with the second coming and support this with various second-coming Scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not sure why you claim this. The transition between the end of the 1000 years and the period beyond will be relatively smooth despite the rebellion mentioned. There will be another "New Heaven and Earth", but this is again symbolic language.

You believe in two new heavens and two new earths. That can't be taken seriously. It's not even worth taking any time to refute such nonsense.

I do not know why you ask this. There will be a judgement of these millennial mortals at the end of the 1000 years and many will be accepted and possibly a small minority rejected.

Where is this judgment of just these millennial mortals described and where does it say many will be accepted and possibly a small minority rejected?

No problem here whatsoever:
Luke 21:28 (KJV): And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Romans 8:19–23 (KJV): 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (KJV):13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Do you not see these verses as referring to what happens when Christ returns? The question is where is the scripture that speaks about the bodily redemption of believers who die during the supposed future thousand years?

I am not sure how you define Posttrib Premils and Pretrib Premils and I am not sure of what category represents my position. Yes I believe in 2 fut
ure resurrections, one at the return of Christ covering the "responsible" (not all mankind Daniel 12:1-3) who have lived during the first 6000 years and one at the end of the 1000 years for those who have died during the 1000 years.

Where does scripture teach this? You are doing nothing to show how scripture supports your doctrine.

How do you interpret this passage:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I do not accept the so-called "rapture" at the beginning of the 1000 years and the circumstances are different at the end of the 1000 years.

How do you interpret this passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The last days mentioned in Isaiah 2:1-4 relate to the events surrounding the second coming of Jesus. There will be no more war as a result of the reestablishment of the Throne of David in Jerusalem.

You apply the last days to a time after Jesus returns, do you not? I showed you that scripture teaches that the last days cover the time period between the first coming of Christ and second coming of Christ (Acts 2:16-21, 2 Peter 3:3-4). Do you think you can just ignore what those passages indicate about the timing of the last days?

I do not see that the detail supports your assessment here. Also the parallel passage in Micah 4:1-8 also contains detail about the restoration and conversion of natural Israel.

Can you please take the time to show exactly what you're talking about instead of just making claims without backing them up?

The "New Heavens and Earth" of Isaiah 65:17-25 apply to the new order of things at the beginning of the 1000 years, while Revelation 21 speaks of the end of the 1000 years.

Nonsense. Revelation 21:1 makes it very clear that the new heavens and new earth are not ushered in until the current heaven and earth pass away and there is no death on the new earth. You are forcing Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-5 to contradict each other, which is unacceptable. You end up believing in two new heavens and two new earths which is utterly ridiculous and can't be taken seriously.

Which of your two new heavens and earths do you think Peter is talking about here:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The new heaven and earth are figurative, but the detail of death in Isaiah 65:17-25 is literal and "no death" in Revelation 21 is also literal.

Wrong. Read Isaiah 65:17-25 carefully. It says there will be no more weeping and crying at that time which matches what Revelation 21:4. Do you think that when people die during this supposed future thousand years that no one will mourn their deaths?

I have answered most of these questions while consuming a very nice fish that my son caught this morning. No tariffs on this fish.

You don't answer questions with any clear explanations for your answers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hi Trevor,
I didn't know that Christadelphians were in agreement with this mainstream disp pre-trib eschatology. But then again, JWs and you guys share commonalities and JWs also believe in a secret rapture but theirs already supposedly happened in 1919. Do you also believe in 2 2nd comings like Jws and pre-tribbers do here?

@Spiritual Israelite @WPM

Ah, so he is a Christadelphian. That explains a lot.

 

[WPM]

You believe in two new heavens and two new earths. That can't be taken seriously. It's not even worth taking any time to refute such nonsense.


Where is this judgment of just these millennial mortals described and where does it say many will be accepted and possibly a small minority rejected?


Do you not see these verses as referring to what happens when Christ returns? The question is where is the scrpture that speaks about the bodily redemption of believers who die during the supposed future thousand years?


Where does scripture teach this? You are doing noting to show how scripture supports your doctrine.

How do you interpret this passage:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.


How do you interpret this passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


You apply the last days to a time after Jesus returns, do you not? I showed you that scripture teaches that the last days cover the time period between the first coming of Christ and second coming of Christ (Acts 2:16-21, 2 Peter 3:3-4). Do you think you can just ignore what those passages indicate about the timing of the last days?


Can you please take the time to show exactly what you're talking about instead of just making claims without backing them up?


Nonsense. Revelation 21:1 makes it very clear that the new heavens and new earth are not ushered in until the current heaven and earth pass away and there is no death on the new earth. You are forcing Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-5 to contradict each other, which is unacceptable. You end up believing in two new heavens and two new earths which is utterly ridiculous and can't be taken seriously.

Which of your two new heavens and earths do you think Peter is talking about here:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Wrong. Read Isaiah 65:17-25 carefully. It says there will be no more weeping and crying at that time which matches what Revelation 21:4. Do you think that when people die during this supposed future thousand years that no one will mourn their deaths?


You don't answer questions with any clear explanations for your answers.

And 2 last days periods, and 2 individual last day's. They are seeing double on every issue - including glorification. They fail to see 1 climactic day. That would force them to be Amil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We believe in the faithful being on earth with Jesus reigning from the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem, and a significant remnant of natural Israel converted becoming the first dominion and the nations subjected and learning the ways of God.

So, you believe He will sit on a literal, physical "Temple Throne of David" in Jerusalem?

How do you interpret this passage:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter taught that the way in which God would raise up Jesus to sit on David's throne would be to raise up Jesus from the dead. Jesus is above sitting on a mere physical throne like a mere mortal king would. He is spiritually on David's throne and is now the King of Israel as well as being the King of kings and Lord of lords. Jesus said Himself after His resurrection: "all power has been given to me in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And 2 last days periods, and 2 individual last day's. They are seeing double on every issue - including glorification. They fail to see 1 climactic day. That would force them to be Amil.

Right. Also, I'm seeing that several Premills here believe either in soul sleep (as TrevorHL does since he is a Christadelphian) or they believe in soul rest (conscious, but just resting). So, because of that they can't accept that the souls of the dead in Christ reign with Christ in heaven now.

So, because of their false doctrine of soul sleep or soul rest they have to come up with an elaborate, convoluted way of making the thousand years follow Christ's return. It results in the nonsense that we constantly see from Premills like 2 last days periods, 2 last days, 2 new heavens, 2 new earths, 2 short times for Satan to wreak unrestrained havoc and so on.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite,

But how do mortal believers move from mortality to immortality at the end of your future millennium? You steer around this. You are totally avoiding the issue at hand in this thread.

The fact that at the end of the 1000 years, death is abolished, then at that time the faithful mortals will be given immortality:
1 Corinthians 15:23–26 (KJV):23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

This is the same event depicted in the following:
Revelation 20:11–15 (KJV): 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

After all, the earth flees away (Revelation 20:11) or passes away (Revelation 21:1-5) at the end of the millennium.

The new heaven and earth is figurative language representing the new order of things. God's ultimate purpose with this earth is stated in:
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
Isaiah 11:9 (KJV): They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Habakkuk 2:14 (KJV): For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Ecclesiastes 1:4 (KJV): One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

You believe in two new heavens and two new earths. That can't be taken seriously. It's not even worth taking any time to refute such nonsense.

Yes, a major change at the beginning of the 1000 years and another major change at the end of the 1000 years.

Where is this judgment of just these millennial mortals described and where does it say many will be accepted and possibly a small minority rejected?

Revelation 20:11-15 as quoted above. The immortal faithful will be effective in their ministry Isaiah 2:1-4.

Do you not see these verses as referring to what happens when Christ returns? The question is where is the scripture that speaks about the bodily redemption of believers who die during the supposed future thousand years?

Salvation is by faith in any era. Refer Revelation 20:11-15 as above.

How do you interpret this passage:
John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

I need to balance the "all" with the "many" of Daniel 12:1-3 and the statement that some will not be raised:
Isaiah 26:13–14 (KJV): 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

How do you interpret this passage:
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

This is similar figurative language. The faithful will be the rulers in the New Heaven.

You apply the last days to a time after Jesus returns, do you not? I showed you that scripture teaches that the last days cover the time period between the first coming of Christ and second coming of Christ (Acts 2:16-21, 2 Peter 3:3-4). Do you think you can just ignore what those passages indicate about the timing of the last days?

There were the last days of Judah's commonwealth which resulted in the events of AD 70 Hebrews 1:1-2. The last days of Isaiah 2:1-4 is the last days of the domination by the Gentile nations.

The last days mentioned in Isaiah 2:1-4 relate to the events surrounding the second coming of Jesus. There will be no more war as a result of the reestablishment of the Throne of David in Jerusalem.

I do not see that the detail supports your assessment here. Also the parallel passage in Micah 4:1-8 also contains detail about the restoration and conversion of natural Israel.

Can you please take the time to show exactly what you're talking about instead of just making claims without backing them up?

Both Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-8 state that there will be no more war. The following speaks of the regathering of the nation of Israel and that they will be the first dominion of the Kingdom of God:
Micah 4:6–7 (KJV): 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite, (Part 2 of 2)

Nonsense. Revelation 21:1 makes it very clear that the new heavens and new earth are not ushered in until the current heaven and earth pass away and there is no death on the new earth. You are forcing Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-5 to contradict each other, which is unacceptable. You end up believing in two new heavens and two new earths which is utterly ridiculous and can't be taken seriously.

I am not forcing anything, but simply disagreeing with your assessment. How do you account for the fact that there will be death during the New Heavens and New Earth of Isaiah 65:17-25?
Isaiah 65:17–25 (KJV): 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Which of your two new heavens and earths do you think Peter is talking about here:
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter is speaking concerning the New Heavens and the New Earth of Isaiah 65:17-25 which starts at the beginning of the 1000 years.

Wrong. Read Isaiah 65:17-25 carefully. It says there will be no more weeping and crying at that time which matches what Revelation 21:4. Do you think that when people die during this supposed future thousand years that no one will mourn their deaths?

I suggest that this speaks of the many catastrophes that occur now. Isaiah 65:17-25 clearly states that death will occur in this period. Why ignore this detail?

Ah, so he is a Christadelphian. That explains a lot.

How do you like John Thomas' assessment of Ezekiel 38:11-13 in his book Elpis Israel written in 1850

"There is, then, a partial and primary restoration of Jews before the manifestation, which is to serve as the nucleus, or basis, of future operations in the restoration of the rest of the tribes after he has appeared in the kingdom. The pre-adventual colonization of Palestine will be on purely political principles; and the Jewish colonists will return in unbelief of the Messiahship of Jesus, and of the truth as it is in him. They will emigrate thither as agriculturists and traders, in the hope of ultimately establishing their commonwealth, but more immediately of getting rich in silver and gold by commerce with India, and in cattle and goods by their industry at home under the efficient protection of the British power. And this their expectation will not be deceived; for, before Gogue invades their country, it is described by the prophet, as “a land of unwalled villages, whose inhabitants are at rest, and dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; and possessed of silver and gold, cattle and goods, dwelling in the midst of the land”.

And 2 last days periods, and 2 individual last day's. They are seeing double on every issue - including glorification. They fail to see 1 climactic day. That would force them to be Amil.

I consider I have stated sufficient to substantiate the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

So, you believe He will sit on a literal, physical "Temple Throne of David" in Jerusalem?

Yes. Seeing you have mentioned that I am a Christadelphian, we have a very thorough exposition of the Temple of Ezekiel's Prophecy by Henry Sulley 1892, 325 pages. He was a Bible student and an Architect. How do Amils interpret all the detail of Ezekiel chapters 40-48?

How do you interpret this passage:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter taught that the way in which God would raise up Jesus to sit on David's throne would be to raise up Jesus from the dead. Jesus is above sitting on a mere physical throne like a mere mortal king would. He is spiritually on David's throne and is now the King of Israel as well as being the King of kings and Lord of lords. Jesus said Himself after His resurrection: "all power has been given to me in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18).

This is an extensive exposition of Psalm 110:1 and fully agrees with my view. Psalm 110:1 is further expounded in the following, showing that Jesus will sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem in the future:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Right. Also, I'm seeing that several Premills here believe either in soul sleep (as TrevorHL does since he is a Christadelphian) or they believe in soul rest (conscious, but just resting). So, because of that they can't accept that the souls of the dead in Christ reign with Christ in heaven now.

We do not accept that the soul is a separate entity. Those who "sleep" are actually dead and have returned to the dust Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:1-3. Man is a mortal soul and does not possess an immortal soul

So, because of their false doctrine of soul sleep or soul rest they have to come up with an elaborate, convoluted way of making the thousand years follow Christ's return. It results in the nonsense that we constantly see from Premills like 2 last days periods, 2 last days, 2 new heavens, 2 new earths, 2 short times for Satan to wreak unrestrained havoc and so on.

I suggest that I have adequately answered this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, a major change at the beginning of the 1000 years and another major change at the end of the 1000 years.

Scripture does not teach two new heavens and two new earths. Which of the two new heavens and earths that you beieve in do you think Peter is referring to here and why did he not specify which new heavens and new earths he was referring to?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I need to balance the "all" with the "many" of Daniel 12:1-3 and the statement that some will not be raised:
Isaiah 26:13–14 (KJV): 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

For one thing, the word "many" does not mean "not all". Jesus said that "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt 22:14). Was He saying that only some are called? No. All are called and they number as "many" or "a multitude". So, that argument regarding Daniel 12 is not valid. Jesus would not contradict Daniel 12:1-3. Why would you not accept what Jesus taught, which is that ALL of the dead will be resurrected at the same time? Don't you think it makes more sense to believe He knew what he as talking about and interpret these other passages accordingly instead of making Jesus look like He was mistaken?

There were the last days of Judah's commonwealth which resulted in the events of AD 70 Hebrews 1:1-2. The last days of Isaiah 2:1-4 is the last days of the domination by the Gentile nations.

I'm sorry, but I can't take it seriously at all when someone tries to claim there are two sets of "the last days" and two new heavens and two new earths.

Both Isaiah 2:1-4 and Micah 4:1-8 state that there will be no more war. The following speaks of the regathering of the nation of Israel and that they will be the first dominion of the Kingdom of God:
Micah 4:6–7 (KJV): 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

This is the remnant that passage is talking about...

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And this is the mount Zion that it's talking about...

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.....22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am not forcing anything, but simply disagreeing with your assessment. How do you account for the fact that there will be death during the New Heavens and New Earth of Isaiah 65:17-25?

Isaiah 65:20 is figurative text. Think about this. If that was talking about death during the new heavens and new earth, that would mean you would have to believe that no one would mourn over anyone's death during that time because the verse immediately preceding that one talks about no more weeping and crying at that point. Why would you be willing to believe something as nonsensical as that?

Look at the similarities in these passages:

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

It's very clear that these passages refer to the same new heavens and new earth. John basically paraphrased Isaiah 65:17-20. Isaiah 65:20 is figurative text describing no more death. Think about it. A 100 year old child? That's clearly figurative and represents the fact that no matter how much time goes by in eternity, no one will age. Even at 100 years old a person would still be a child. You can't take that literally. It's a figurative way of referring to eternity in a way that people at the time could understand. People didn't have any concept of eternity back then like we do now because of having the New Testament.

Also, notice how Revelation 21:1 says that the new heavens and new earth appear after the first heavens and first earth pass away. The first heaven and first earth refer to the heaven and earth that exist right now. You have the new heavens and new earth of Revelation 21 appearing after the first new heavens and first new earth pass away instead. So, your view contradicts what Revelation 21:1 says.

Peter is speaking concerning the New Heavens and the New Earth of Isaiah 65:17-25 which starts at the beginning of the 1000 years.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter talked about a new heavens and new earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness". That implies that only righteousness will dwell there. It would be a pointless statement for him to make if wickedness also dwelt there, as you believe is the case with Isaiah 65:17-25.

I suggest that this speaks of the many catastrophes that occur now. Isaiah 65:17-25 clearly states that death will occur in this period. Why ignore this detail?

Why ignore that it states that there will be no more weeping and crying at that time? This forces you to believe a ridiculous notion that no one will mourn the death of their loved ones during that time.

I consider I have stated sufficient to substantiate the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

I completely disagree.

Yes. Seeing you have mentioned that I am a Christadelphian, we have a very thorough exposition of the Temple of Ezekiel's Prophecy by Henry Sulley 1892, 325 pages. He was a Bible student and an Architect. How do Amils interpret all the detail of Ezekiel chapters 40-48?

It was a conditional prophecy and the conditions weren't met (Ezekiel 43:9-11). To think that animal sacrifices and offerings will be reinstated in the future is an insult to the "once for all" sacrifice that Jesus made which made the old covenant and it's animal sacrifices obsolete forever.

This is an extensive exposition of Psalm 110:1 and fully agrees with my view. Psalm 110:1 is further expounded in the following, showing that Jesus will sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem in the future:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Like all Premills, you are being evasive. Please address what I said about Acts 2:29-36. Please let me know what you think about what I said and please tell me how you interpret it.

We do not accept that the soul is a separate entity. Those who "sleep" are actually dead and have returned to the dust Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:1-3. Man is a mortal soul and does not possess an immortal soul

So, do you think Paul didn't now what he was talking about when he said this...

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul indicated that "you wholly" consists of "your whole spirit and soul and body". So, we have a spirit and soul and body. Those who sleep are only bodily dead, but their souls and spirits are not dead. How do you interpret this passage...

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If the soul isn't a separate entitty then how could John have seen the souls of those who were dead? He was clearly seeing a part of these martyrs besides their body and he indicated that they were conscious.

And how do you interpret Luke 16:19-31 which has Jesus portraying people who are dead but conscious?

And what do you do with a passage like this...

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If soul sleep was true and those who have physically died are completely dead and not alive in any way, then that would mean God is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You are making the same mistake that the Sadducees made in the sense that you think when someone dies they completely lose consciousness. In their case they believed that was the case forever, but you still make the same mistake that they do in a sense and Jesus said regarding that mistake: "ye therefore do greatly err".

How about the fact that Moses and Elijah, who are physically dead, spoke to Jesus at His transfiguration? How was that possible if soul sleep was true?

I suggest that I have adequately answered this.

Honestly, I don't think you have come anywhere near adequately answering anything.

 

[WPM]

Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite, (Part 2 of 2)

I am not forcing anything, but simply disagreeing with your assessment. How do you account for the fact that there will be death during the New Heavens and New Earth of Isaiah 65:17-25?
Isaiah 65:17–25 (KJV): 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Peter is speaking concerning the New Heavens and the New Earth of Isaiah 65:17-25 which starts at the beginning of the 1000 years.

I suggest that this speaks of the many catastrophes that occur now. Isaiah 65:17-25 clearly states that death will occur in this period. Why ignore this detail?

How do you like John Thomas' assessment of Ezekiel 38:11-13 in his book Elpis Israel written in 1850

"There is, then, a partial and primary restoration of Jews before the manifestation, which is to serve as the nucleus, or basis, of future operations in the restoration of the rest of the tribes after he has appeared in the kingdom. The pre-adventual colonization of Palestine will be on purely political principles; and the Jewish colonists will return in unbelief of the Messiahship of Jesus, and of the truth as it is in him. They will emigrate thither as agriculturists and traders, in the hope of ultimately establishing their commonwealth, but more immediately of getting rich in silver and gold by commerce with India, and in cattle and goods by their industry at home under the efficient protection of the British power. And this their expectation will not be deceived; for, before Gogue invades their country, it is described by the prophet, as “a land of unwalled villages, whose inhabitants are at rest, and dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; and possessed of silver and gold, cattle and goods, dwelling in the midst of the land”.

I consider I have stated sufficient to substantiate the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

Yes. Seeing you have mentioned that I am a Christadelphian, we have a very thorough exposition of the Temple of Ezekiel's Prophecy by Henry Sulley 1892, 325 pages. He was a Bible student and an Architect. How do Amils interpret all the detail of Ezekiel chapters 40-48?

This is an extensive exposition of Psalm 110:1 and fully agrees with my view. Psalm 110:1 is further expounded in the following, showing that Jesus will sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem in the future:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

We do not accept that the soul is a separate entity. Those who "sleep" are actually dead and have returned to the dust Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:1-3. Man is a mortal soul and does not possess an immortal soul

I suggest that I have adequately answered this.

Kind regards
Trevor

So,

• What are the major difference between your 1st new heavens and new earth and your 2nd new heavens and new earth?
• What are the major difference between your 1st last days period and your 2nd last days period?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite,

Scripture does not teach two new heavens and two new earths. Which of the two new heavens and earths that you beieve in do you think Peter is referring to here and why did he not specify which new heavens and new earths he was referring to?
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The same as Isaiah 65:17-25. Jesus will return and judge the living and the dead and grant the faithful a crown of righteousness. Peter will share this with Paul:
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Peter will share the role of kings and priests during the 1000 years:
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 20:4–6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

For one thing, the word "many" does not mean "not all". Jesus said that "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt 22:14). Was He saying that only some are called? No. All are called and they number as "many" or "a multitude". So, that argument regarding Daniel 12 is not valid. Jesus would not contradict Daniel 12:1-3.

Have your immediate neighbours heard the call? What about more than 1 billion in China? Have they heard the call?

Why would you not accept what Jesus taught, which is that ALL of the dead will be resurrected at the same time? Don't you think it makes more sense to believe He knew what he as talking about and interpret these other passages accordingly instead of making Jesus look like He was mistaken?

My only assessment is that it speaks of "All" in the sense that there will not be a successive sequence of different groups. All that will be subject to the resurrection when Jesus returns to set up his 1000 year kingdom upon the earth will be raised at the same time. I will hold to what Isaiah 26:14 and Daniel 12:1-3 clearly states. Another similar reference is:
Psalm 49:14–20 (KJV): 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. 16 Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased; 17 For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him. 18 Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself. 19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. 20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

I'm sorry, but I can't take it seriously at all when someone tries to claim there are two sets of "the last days"

Was the period of Jesus' ministry ""the last days"?
Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV):1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In what way do these last days of Hebrews 1:2 in any way match the details of Isaiah 2:1-4?
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I'm sorry, but I can't take it seriously at all when someone tries to claim there are ... two new heavens and two new earths.

Figurative language. One at the beginning of the 1000 years, the other at the end of the 1000 years.

This is the remnant that passage is talking about...Romans 11:1
And this is the mount Zion that it's talking about...Hebrews 12:18

I strongly disagree.

Isaiah 65:20 is figurative text. Think about this. If that was talking about death during the new heavens and new earth, that would mean you would have to believe that no one would mourn over anyone's death during that time because the verse immediately preceding that one talks about no more weeping and crying at that point. Why would you be willing to believe something as nonsensical as that? .... A 100 year old child?

There will be death as stated but no child mortality.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite, Part 2 of 2

It was a conditional prophecy and the conditions weren't met (Ezekiel 43:9-11). To think that animal sacrifices and offerings will be reinstated in the future is an insult to the "once for all" sacrifice that Jesus made which made the old covenant and it's animal sacrifices obsolete forever.

The sequence of Ezekiel 38,39,40-48 is not conditional.

Like all Premills, you are being evasive. Please address what I said about Acts 2:29-36. Please let me know what you think about what I said and please tell me how you interpret it.

The Throne of David is not in heaven. Jesus was invited to sit at the right hand of God the Father in God the Father's Throne.

If the soul isn't a separate entitty then how could John have seen the souls of those who were dead? He was clearly seeing a part of these martyrs besides their body and he indicated that they were conscious.

A full discussion of immortal souls is off topic. The figure is based upon an animal sacrifice where their life blood was poured out at the base of the altar. It is also based on Abel's blood crying from the ground. It was prophetic of the period leading up to the overthrow of the Pagan Roman Empire.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If soul sleep was true and those who have physically died are completely dead and not alive in any way, then that would mean God is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

If God was no longer interested in Abraham then he would not be their God. Jesus is speaking about the resurrection, therefore God will raise Abraham from the grave.

How about the fact that Moses and Elijah, who are physically dead, spoke to Jesus at His transfiguration? How was that possible if soul sleep was true?

God temporarily raised them from the dead in order to speak to Jesus, to encourage him concerning his impending "exodus". They were not there as immortal souls or ethereal spirits. They also appeared in glory. Perhaps you have been watching Fiddler on the Roof. They would then return to the grave.

What are the major difference between your 1st new heavens and new earth and your 2nd new heavens and new earth?

The first new heavens and earth are the 1000 year reign of Jesus and the faithful as king/priests over the mortal nations. They will teach these people the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4. The second new heavens and earth is at the completion of this period of 1000 years, where all the earth will be full of the knowledge of God and death will be abolished. A glorious multitude.

What are the major difference between your 1st last days period and your 2nd last days period?

The first was the end of the Jewish Commonwealth when the Romans destroyed the Temple and its worship and carried most of the Jews into captivity. The second is the period before and during the establishment of the Kingdom upon the earth, when Jesus will replace the present kingdoms of men with the kingdom of God Daniel 2:35,44.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WPM]

Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite, Part 2 of 2

The sequence of Ezekiel 38,39,40-48 is not conditional.

The Throne of David is not in heaven. Jesus was invited to sit at the right hand of God the Father in God the Father's Throne.

A full discussion of immortal souls is off topic. The figure is based upon an animal sacrifice where their life blood was poured out at the base of the altar. It is also based on Abel's blood crying from the ground. It was prophetic of the period leading up to the overthrow of the Pagan Roman Empire.

If God was no longer interested in Abraham then he would not be their God. Jesus is speaking about the resurrection, therefore God will raise Abraham from the grave.

God temporarily raised them from the dead in order to speak to Jesus, to encourage him concerning his impending "exodus". They were not there as immortal souls or ethereal spirits. They also appeared in glory. Perhaps you have been watching Fiddler on the Roof. They would then return to the grave.

The first new heavens and earth are the 1000 year reign of Jesus and the faithful as king/priests over the mortal nations. They will teach these people the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4. The second new heavens and earth is at the completion of this period of 1000 years, where all the earth will be full of the knowledge of God and death will be abolished. A glorious multitude.

The first was the end of the Jewish Commonwealth when the Romans destroyed the Temple and its worship and carried most of the Jews into captivity. The second is the period before and during the establishment of the Kingdom upon the earth, when Jesus will replace the present kingdoms of men with the kingdom of God Daniel 2:35,44.

Kind regards
Trevor

You are avoiding my questions:

• What are the major difference between your 1st new heavens and new earth and your 2nd new heavens and new earth?
• What are the major difference between your 1st last days period and your 2nd last days period?

 

[WPM]

Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite, (Part 2 of 2)

I am not forcing anything, but simply disagreeing with your assessment. How do you account for the fact that there will be death during the New Heavens and New Earth of Isaiah 65:17-25?
Isaiah 65:17–25 (KJV): 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

The one thing we know for sure is that Scripture does not contradict itself in any way. The way some theologians explain this passage would lead you to believe that this passage is the one exception to this rule in Scripture. Of course, we know it isn’t (or can’t be). This much-debated passage before us must therefore beautifully correlates with other similar Scripture, which informs us that the coming of Christ is climactic and that the new earth is totally free of the curse. It is essential that we always interpret difficult passages like this with other clearer and simpler passages.

The first thing we see in this reading is the time period in view; the Old Testament prophet explains that he is specifically speaking of the “new heavens and a new earth.” This is indisputable and cannot be a matter for theological debate. Whilst there are challenging parts to this passage, we can be sure of the fact that the detail described will be fulfilled in the “new heavens and a new earth.” In fact, the wording is so explicit in relation to the time-period that it removes any ambiguity or uncertainty for the reader on that front. This is the first absolute we can establish with this reading.

Isaiah 65 is written as poetry. Isaiah shows that life will be radically different in the new world compared with what people now in this state experience. Humans will possess unending life, meaning they will live forever. That would’ve been a hard and innovative concept for Old Testament believers to grasp. Before Christ’s earthly ministry, sin, death, corruption and Satan had not been defeated. This hope was not fully understood before the First Advent but was veiled in Old Testament prophetic predictions, the old covenant apparatus and the ceremonial religious system.

Isaiah’s vision is of an idealized earth on which creation is changed and life is transformed to a state unknown to fallen creation. It shows how this current corrupted earth and the heavens become perfected at a certain future point which results in all creation being delivered from the bondage of corruption and imprinted with eternity.

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter requires letting New Testament Scripture explain and locate the “new heavens and a new earth.” After all, it is the fuller and brighter revelation. To ignore this is folly!

Revelation expressly locates the new earth after the millennial period and not at the beginning. Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

This is beyond dispute. Any other understanding is contradicting Scripture. Notwithstanding, this doesn’t stop some Bible students forcing this passage into a supposed future millennium in between this current age and the new heavens and a new earth in the age to come. This can only occur if one is to ignore the setting clearly outlined by the Holy Ghost elsewhere in Holy Writ.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again WPM,

You are avoiding my questions:

• What are the major difference between your 1st new heavens and new earth and your 2nd new heavens and new earth?
• What are the major difference between your 1st last days period and your 2nd last days period?

I am satisfied with my original answers. What I stated is a summary of the substance of the rest of my posts.

Isaiah 65 is written as poetry. Isaiah shows that life will be radically different in the new world compared with what people now in this state experience. Humans will possess unending life, meaning they will live forever.

Isaiah 65 teaches that in the new heaven and earth of the 1000 years there will be mortals and they will live to 100 years. The following also teaches that there will be mortal sinners during the 1000 years:

Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV): 16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Notice what it says in Isaiah 65:18-19. No more weeping and crying. Just like it says in Revelation 21:4. Do you think that people will die during this supposed future thousand year time period and no one will mourn their deaths? That would be ridiculous, right? So, how do you reconcile your understanding of Isaiah 65:20 with what it says in Revelation 65:18-19 and what it says in Revelation 21:4?

These are two different heavens and earths, one the 1000 years and the second after the 1000 years. About ten years ago we buried my mother-in-law at the age of 100 years. She had been a widow for 38 years and she had lived a full life. She lived independently in her own flat until the age of 97 years and only started to lose some memory at 99. Her health also started to fade at 99. When we buried her there was no major grief, but the reflection on her life. She was buried next to her husband and both now have the inscription on their stones "In hope of the resurrection". When we buried my father at the age of 75 after a heart attack there was much sorrow, but this will not happen during the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Greetings again WPM and Spiritual Israelite,

The same as Isaiah 65:17-25. Jesus will return and judge the living and the dead and grant the faithful a crown of righteousness. Peter will share this with Paul:
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Peter will share the role of kings and priests during the 1000 years:
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 20:4–6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Are you not aware that Jesus reigns now and that we are His priests now?

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Have your immediate neighbours heard the call? What about more than 1 billion in China? Have they heard the call?

God wants all people to be saved and commands all people to repent, so, yes, everyone has heard the call in one way or another.

But, if you're not convinced by that verse that the word "many" does not have to mean not all, how about this...

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days.

So, Abraham traveled and spent time in the Philistine land for "many days". Is that referring to just some of the days that Abraham was in the Philistines' land or all of the days that Abraham was in the Philistines' land? It's referring to all of the days that Abraham was there which numbered as "many". Daniel 12:2 should be understood similarly. The number of those who will be resurrected, which will be all of the dead according to Jesus in John 5:28-29, is "many". The Hebrew word translated as "many" in Daniel 12:2 is raḇ and it refers to a large number. But, there is no definition of that word which says "a large number, but not all".

My only assessment is that it speaks of "All" in the sense that there will not be a successive sequence of different groups. All that will be subject to the resurrection when Jesus returns to set up his 1000 year kingdom upon the earth will be raised at the same time. I will hold to what Isaiah 26:14 and Daniel 12:1-3 clearly states.

In other words, you will hold to what contradicts what Jesus states which is that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29).

Was the period of Jesus' ministry ""the last days"?
Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV):1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I thought I made it clear. The time from His first coming to His second coming are the last days. Is there anything that you don't understand about that statement? I'm not interested in getting technical about exactly when the last days started. They generally go from His first coming to His second coming, as passages like Acts 2:16-21 and 2 Peter 3:3-4 indicate. How about addressing that point? Do you agree that the last days had begun at least as of the day of Pentecost, according to Peter in Acts 2:16-21)? Do you agree that the last days occur while people are scoffing at the promise of Christ's second coming, as Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:3-4?

In what way do these last days of Hebrews 1:2 in any way match the details of Isaiah 2:1-4?
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

That is figurative language, as you like to say about the new heavens and new earth. Why do you see the figurative langage in other text, but not here? There is no consistency in your approach to interpreting scripture. If other scripture tells us that the last days occur between the first and second coming of Christ, that should be our starting point when trying to determine what Isaiah 2:1-4 means. Instead, you try to extend the last days beyond the day of His second coming, which scripture itself does not allow.

Figurative language. One at the beginning of the 1000 years, the other at the end of the 1000 years.

Figurative or not, you believe in two new heavens and two new earths and I cannot possibly take that seriously. Revelation 21:1 makes it clear that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in with this current heavens and earth pass away, but you have Revelation 21:1 saying that the second new heavens and new earth are ushered in after the first new heavens and new earth pass away.

I strongly disagree.

There will be death as stated but no child mortality.

Isaiah 65:18-19 says there will be no more weeping or crying. So, no one will mourn anyone's death at that point?

You refer to the passages regarding the new heavens and new earth as "figurative language", but for some reason you don't take Isaiah 65:20 figuratively and take it literally instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The sequence of Ezekiel 38,39,40-48 is not conditional.

Ezekiel 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever. 10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Ezekiel 40-48 was conditional upon them being ashamed of all that they had done and they were not.

The Throne of David is not in heaven. Jesus was invited to sit at the right hand of God the Father in God the Father's Throne.

You are still being very evasive. I'm asking you to address what Peter said in Acts 2:29-36. Is there some reason why you are not willing to do that?

A full discussion of immortal souls is off topic.

I disagree. Your belief in soul sleep prevents you from seeing that the souls of the dead in Christ reign with Christ in heaven now. Your Premill belief is largely because of your belief in soul sleep, so it's not off topic.

The figure is based upon an animal sacrifice where their life blood was poured out at the base of the altar. It is also based on Abel's blood crying from the ground. It was prophetic of the period leading up to the overthrow of the Pagan Roman Empire.

John specifically referred to the souls of those who had been slain and it showed them as being conscious. What do you believe are the souls of those who were slain if not the part of them that is called the soul?

If God was no longer interested in Abraham then he would not be their God. Jesus is speaking about the resurrection, therefore God will raise Abraham from the grave.

Is God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob right now? Keep in mind that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

God temporarily raised them from the dead in order to speak to Jesus, to encourage him concerning his impending "exodus". They were not there as immortal souls or ethereal spirits. They also appeared in glory. Perhaps you have been watching Fiddler on the Roof. They would then return to the grave.

Show me where the scripture indicates that they were temporarily raised from the dead. It comes across that they already knew Jesus before the discussion took place. How could that be possible if they had no consciousness for hundreds of years prior to that?

The first new heavens and earth are the 1000 year reign of Jesus and the faithful as king/priests over the mortal nations. They will teach these people the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4.

Again, Isaiah 2:1-4 refers to the last days. According to scriptures like Acts 2:16-21 and 2 Peter3:3-4, the last days consist of the time period between the first and second coming of Christ. But, you want us to believe there are two sets of "last days" and two new heavens and two new earths. Your approach to interpreting scripture can make it say whatever you want it to say.

The second new heavens and earth is at the completion of this period of 1000 years, where all the earth will be full of the knowledge of God and death will be abolished. A glorious multitude.

Here is a description of what you believe is the second new heavens and earth.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

This does NOT say John saw a new heaven and new earth for the first new heaven and first new earth were passed away. Instead, it says He saw a new heaven and new earth for the first heaven and first earth were passed away. The heaven and earth that exist now are the first heaven and first earth. So, your view contradicts Revelation 21:1.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The one thing we know for sure is that Scripture does not contradict itself in any way. The way some theologians explain this passage would lead you to believe that this passage is the one exception to this rule in Scripture. Of course, we know it isn’t (or can’t be). This much-debated passage before us must therefore beautifully correlates with other similar Scripture, which informs us that the coming of Christ is climactic and that the new earth is totally free of the curse. It is essential that we always interpret difficult passages like this with other clearer and simpler passages.

I fully agree with what you described here, but it is a concept that Premills do not understand at all. And that is a big reason why they are Premills. You can't be a Premill while using clearer and simpler passages to interpret more difficult passages since the clearer and simpler passages overwhelmingly support Amill.

The first thing we see in this reading is the time period in view; the Old Testament prophet explains that he is specifically speaking of the “new heavens and a new earth.” This is indisputable and cannot be a matter for theological debate. Whilst there are challenging parts to this passage, we can be sure of the fact that the detail described will be fulfilled in the “new heavens and a new earth.” In fact, the wording is so explicit in relation to the time-period that it removes any ambiguity or uncertainty for the reader on that front. This is the first absolute we can establish with this reading.

Agree. It's not referring to a first new heavens and first new earth as some imagine. It is referring to THE new heavens and a new earth. There is only one new heavens and new earth. If someone tries to say there are two new heavens and new earths, what is to keep someone from saying there are three or four new heavens and new earths or however many new heavens and new earths they need there to be to support their doctrine? If Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-4 referred to two different new heavens and new earths then what is to keep us from claiming that 2 Peter 3:13 is referring to a third new heavens and third new earth? Where does the madness end?

Isaiah 65 is written as poetry. Isaiah shows that life will be radically different in the new world compared with what people now in this state experience. Humans will possess unending life, meaning they will live forever. That would’ve been a hard and innovative concept for Old Testament believers to grasp. Before Christ’s earthly ministry, sin, death, corruption and Satan had not been defeated. This hope was not fully understood before the First Advent but was veiled in Old Testament prophetic predictions, the old covenant apparatus and the ceremonial religious system.

Right. They did not have any understanding of eternity yet at that time because it was not God's plan to reveal it until New Testament times, so Isaiah described it in a way that they could understand at the time.

Isaiah’s vision is of an idealized earth on which creation is changed and life is transformed to a state unknown to fallen creation. It shows how this current corrupted earth and the heavens become perfected at a certain future point which results in all creation being delivered from the bondage of corruption and imprinted with eternity.

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter requires letting New Testament Scripture explain and locate the “new heavens and a new earth.” After all, it is the fuller and brighter revelation. To ignore this is folly!

Revelation expressly locates the new earth after the millennial period and not at the beginning. Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

This is beyond dispute. Any other understanding is contradicting Scripture. Notwithstanding, this doesn’t stop some Bible students forcing this passage into a supposed future millennium in between this current age and the new heavens and a new earth in the age to come. This can only occur if one is to ignore the setting clearly outlined by the Holy Ghost elsewhere in Holy Writ.

Agree. And, as I like to ask the Premills who think that Isaiah 65:17-25 applies to a future earthly millennium, why do they believe that no one will mourn anyone's death during that time? Will people not care if their loved ones die during that time? Premills don't realize how their interpretations of Isaiah 65:20 make nonsense out of the verse preceding it because they have death occurring but no one weeping or crying over their loved ones' deaths. Which is obviously ridiculous.