Strength and Honor: Triumphing over Feminism

[Wynona]

*Hands MA2444 a Dagwood Sandwich before beginning my rant*

You know...what's interesting to me about what's bolded is that there seems to be a tie-in between how you treated your wife and how that affected her, and how some women USED to treat their husbands...and how it may have affected THEM.

Treating someone well...showering her with compliments and praise...bringing him his slippers and newspaper... is one thing. But it CAN become too much, to where the receiver of that treatment/praise goes to their heads. And gratitude is somehow lost...reduced to a "job" or a "role". Appreciation goes by the wayside. Humility goes by the wayside. These days, the mantra from BOTH men and women is "I DESERVE..."

Do they REALLY????

Service is something both men and women can get used to. There is a risk of entitlement with that. It's still how God wants us to be. The response others have is not within our control.

I don't see witholding as an ideal for marriage. 50/50 is a mindset that leads to scorekeeping. This is something my husband and I used to do. We constantly compared who did what with money and chores.

Christian marriage isn't about that. We learned over time to trust each other with 100 percent. Not because he never does more or I never do more. We just let it go because we started trusting that the devotion was there whenever energy could be spared and if one day I did more, the day would soon arrive where he did more.

The ideal is not, "I did my fair share and so did he/she." It's two saying, "I can never truly return what he/she did for me because they gave it all." That's how I feel now.

But in order for us to get there, I had to let go of the fear of being taken advantage of and getting less than I was putting in. That was making me way too self-focused, and I did hurtful things as a result.

I also thought I was too good for my husband at times. But fear and pride were undermining the patience I needed to show my husband as a newly married man. I was not some superwife right from the word go. I needed to extend that grace to him but all my family and friends joined in to criticize all his mistakes and anger immediately.

It was definitely sexist. They just assumed he wasn't good enough. My husband and I grew up in a world that feminism created. Only being open to unlearning it healed our marriage. No man wants to be the bad guy from the word go.

Rather, a lot of man want to prove themselves. They want to be heroes for their wives. He always wanted this. I just chose not to believe it when it didn't suit some selfish thing I wanted.

Love is not about the deserving status of the other. We choose to love because God loved us in our underservedness.

 

[Wrangler]

People usually only move to your side halfway or a quarter.

I've heard people move only 2% at a time.

But I consider this more realistic than expecting to reverse an ideology in one paragraph or even one conversation.

I suppose I am implying that you are being impatient

Hmmm. You are confusing persuasion with epistemological analysis. I have no real influence in the inner workings of one's mind. I can only point out facts, logic and moral (Biblical) principles.

I've heard a funny explanation of what a Liberal is; one who believes it's entirely possible to pick up a turd from the clean end. No matter how one thinks or believes about it, it's just not true. LOL

 

[Wrangler]

This is a great vid that invokes a decades long feminist activist lamenting how today's feminists undo all the work by objectifying themselves.

 

[Wynona]

This morning, our son Ozaias is due in two weeks. My husband put a hand on my belly. Ozaias punched where the hand was and My husband could feel it. When the hand moved my belly, Ozaias punched it again.

Having a son makes me think about the experience of men around me. I gave our roommate thanks for being supportive with chores, loyal to Elijah, and having the rare quality of reciprocity.

He apologized for handling the gratitude awkwardly. He said he wasn't used to being thanked.

My husband later confirmed that he grew up with his divorced narcissist mother and several bad girlfriends. He was used to arguing, not thanks.

I was shocked that he was so unused to basic appreciation. But this is typical for a lot of males close to our age.

If men growing up today ever get preferential treatment or respect simply by virtue of being men, I haven't seen it. Most of the males my age are treated as burdens by their parents and teachers from an early age.

 

[Wynona]

This is a great vid that invokes a decades long feminist activist lamenting how today's feminists undo all the work by objectifying themselves.

He was saying women turn themselves into commodities that can be purchased with money and it undoes the work of feminists activists that came before.

Biblical patriarchy did a way better job of assigning women value outside of being sex objects before the suffrage movement or any wave of feminism. Genesis 2:18 said Eve was a companion and helpmeet. Not a sex object that Adam could flash money at and put away later.

Feminists tend to conflate men who value women being submissive homemakers with sexist chauvinists. But it was men who did not appreciate the woman's traditional role in the home and trampled over it that gave feminists fuel to push their ideology.

 

[Mink57]

Dagwood Sandwiches, My Favorite!

When I first met her, she was just another girl to my 22 yr old self that I wanted to get with. She grew up poor on a farm in Poland and only knew 5 or 6 words of English when I met her. But I didnt let the language barrier slow me down, lol! I was able to nicely let her know what I want. And "No" was one of the words that she knew! But I found her beautiful and I wanted her and had never really been told no before, lol. So it was sort of a conquest for me too (How a 22 yr old thinks). But she had such a humble spirit and was real sweet. But she kept saying No and it got to be almost 6 months later and still no. So I thought well she prolly is not going to ever say yes to me. And I took one day off and went out with my brother instead and went back the next night and I guess it scared her that I didnt come around one day and she didnt want me to not come back. So she gave in finally after 6 months. She must've got pregnant the first time we did it, but she was saying yes now so I didnt miss a night, lol. And whoa she got pregnant fast. I saw the shape of belly start to change and told her before she knew!

And I did some deep thinking about her. This had never happened to me before. She was going to have my child. So I thought I better get her a place is what I should do. , so I rented a small basement apt, what I could afford and we moved in to it...And she still barely knew any english. She was so humble in spirit that it bothered me. She would ask if it was ok if she got a drink of water. (Doh!) I tried to convince her, this is your house. I knew that essentially, she was a stranger in a strange land and was prolly very worried. So I hovered over her and took care of her. I figured, so this is my time. My turn to have a kid. I might as well do it right if I can.

But it bothered me when she would ask for things in the house. As if she was a guest instead, the momma. I felt bad but loved her humble spirit and highly skilled cooking that she could do. So I made it my mission to lift her up in spirit. So I started complimenting her and it grew to be a habit. She did get comfortable eventually and I should have stopped, but she liked it and I knew she did so I didnt stop...and that was a mistake.

I went in business for myself 10 years later and I didnt care about money. I just wanted a family so I gave her all the money and she did good keeping the books and stuff. I gave her a lot of money, too much. Because she couldn handle it. She got used to it and was loving life when we doing 6 figures and then when the economy was sliding down I guess she didnt want to downsize her money flow. She got materialistic. Also my fault. But the economy wasnt my fault! Just the Materialistic Monster that I created.

How's that Led Zepplin song go? Na na na na no-body's fault bu-ut mineee.

I don't see how her materialism is your fault. I mean, as adults, aren't we each responsible for ourselves?

Unfortunately, I've seen this same situation time and time again on these forums over the years. Boy meets (foreign) girl. At first she's humble. But as time goes by, she becomes more and more materialistic.

I wonder if your wife even realized what was happening to her...

 

[Wrangler]

But it was men who did not appreciate the woman's traditional role in the home and trampled over it that gave feminists fuel to push their ideology.

Thus revealing the worldly foundation of feminism, seeking external validation from men … if only men did X… Now, a century later, feminists are less happy.

They cannot humbly admit their ideology is inherently and fatally flawed for validation comes from a proper relationship within, with your Creator.

 

[MA2444]

I don't see how her materialism is your fault. I mean, as adults, aren't we each responsible for ourselves?

Unfortunately, I've seen this same situation time and time again on these forums over the years. Boy meets (foreign) girl. At first she's humble. But as time goes by, she becomes more and more materialistic.

I wonder if your wife even realized what was happening to her...

It had to be my fault or else I'd have to admit that I choose women poorly, lol. And I think I have good taste in women. It was my fault, here she was poor little farm girl fresh off the farm in Poland and comes to (Columbus, Ohio??? Whoa) America not even knowing the language. I met her when she was 17 years old. We stayed together and stuck for 26 years. There never was any of that stuff ike the young kids do...oh we were on a break. There are no breaks in Marriage, lol. SO clearly, I was the biggest influence in her life for a long time.

She had to be able to see what was happening to her. Little poor farm girl moving to the big city? But I wasnt walking with the Lord at that time so I was not her spiritual leader like I should have been. Quite the opposite in fact! Like a bumbling fool, I fed into it! What do you want? Where would you like to go? Idiot! She liked it. Then after we dropped below 6 figures because of the economy and got scared and didnt want to go back to the Farm! (While I was all proud that I had a wife that can cook out of the gravel from the driveway almost so we'll always be ok, right? She knows how to live on next to nothing, and so do I. The difference is, I dont care about money and never have. I didnt want to be a millionaire. I seen them on the TV all the time having huge problems, so rich people still have money problems and they are bigger than my poor selfs money problems Lol!

If I want something then go use or get the money to get it, done. I noticed even when I was young that women have two big complaints about men. One is, He's a bum and wont work & provide, the second is similar, we have plenty of money, but he's never home!

It's a fine line for men to walk. It we put too much attention to either choice, the other suffers and it worked ok for me. After we went in to business she let me know when, I was working too much so hire your helper guy or brother or something. So I did. Then I liked it because I got to spend a lot more time with the family...until one day she says, you should take that service call instead of send the man. So I knew she wanted more money, lol. At first when I got busy enough to take another man on what I did was not take a man on and just raised my prices some and then I wasnt as budy anymore! I wasnt lazy I wanted to do it all up to the point to where I was still at home enough too.

It was my fault. I should have been better grounded in reality.

 

[Mink57]

He was saying women turn themselves into commodities that can be purchased with money and it undoes the work of feminists activists that came before.

Biblical patriarchy did a way better job of assigning women value outside of being sex objects before the suffrage movement or any wave of feminism. Genesis 2:18 said Eve was a companion and helpmeet. Not a sex object that Adam could flash money at and put away later.

Feminists tend to conflate men who value women being submissive homemakers with sexist chauvinists. But it was men who did not appreciate the woman's traditional role in the home and trampled over it that gave feminists fuel to push their ideology.

I think we need to FIRST realize that the Bible wasn't ALWAYS in existence...and neither was Patriarchy. When you talk about Patriarchy and tradition, you're talking about something that's only existed for a short time in human history...AND...that its existence was largely cultural. For example, there was a stark difference between the rights of Grecian women (practically non-existent rights) and Egyptian women in ancient history. Egyptian women attended market, were employed in trade, were eligible to sit on local tribunals, engage in real estate transactions, inherit and bequeath property, obtain loans, and witness legal documents. None of this whole, "Women aren't smart enough, women aren't capable of...women are inferior to men..."

So, why did Egyptian women have more rights than Grecian women? Why did Roman women have more rights that Grecian women but less rights than Egyptian women? Egypt was under male rule, but the rulers seemed to understand that women are perfectly capable of contributing to society in ways other than ONLY child-rearing and house management.

Ever read one of Abigail Adam's letters to her husband, John Adams, 2nd POTUS? She wrote (in part):
"I long to hear that you have declared an independancy—and by the way in the new Code of Laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make I desire you would Remember the Ladies, and be more generous and favourable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the Husbands. Remember all Men would be tyrants if they could. If perticuliar care and attention is not paid to the Laidies we are determined to foment a Rebelion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any Laws in which we have no voice, or Representation.

That your Sex are Naturally Tyrannical is a Truth so thoroughly established as to admit of no dispute, but such of you as wish to be happy willingly give up the harsh title of Master for the more tender and endearing one of Friend. Why then, not put it out of the power of the vicious and the Lawless to use us with cruelty and indignity with impunity. Men of Sense in all Ages abhor those customs which treat us only as the vassals of your Sex. Regard us then as Beings placed by providence under your protection and in immitation of the Supreem Being make use of that power only for our happiness."

Founders Online: Abigail Adams to John Adams, 31 March 1776

Abigail Adams to John Adams, 31 March 1776

founders.archives.gov

Even before Feminism was born, Abigail recognized that "not all men were created equal", and that SOME men would abuse that power.

And enough men have abused the idea of 'biblical patriarchy' and wives 'submission' to their advantage.

It's that precept that feminism fights against.

 

[Mink57]

It had to be my fault or else I'd have to admit that I choose women poorly, lol. And I think I have good taste in women. It was my fault, here she was poor little farm girl fresh off the farm in Poland and comes to (Columbus, Ohio??? Whoa) America not even knowing the language. I met her when she was 17 years old. We stayed together and stuck for 26 years. There never was any of that stuff ike the young kids do...oh we were on a break. There are no breaks in Marriage, lol. SO clearly, I was the biggest influence in her life for a long time.

I don't think so. So many people -- men AND women -- change over time. The woman you chose umpteen years ago was a certain way. And what's the old saying? A woman marries a man hoping she can change him; a man marries a woman hoping she'll never change. Truth be dat. But the truth IS that some people DO change, and not necessarily for the better. You obviously loved her a great deal. And she was obviously receptive to that love. How could you possibly have known ahead of time that she would start to expect more from you?

While you may blame yourself, I don't blame you...

She had to be able to see what was happening to her. Little poor farm girl moving to the big city? But I wasnt walking with the Lord at that time so I was not her spiritual leader like I should have been. Quite the opposite in fact! Like a bumbling fool, I fed into it! What do you want? Where would you like to go? Idiot! She liked it.

I would like that TOO, because I hardly got that! It was MOSTLY where 'HE' would want to go. What 'HE' would want to do. I felt like 'he' wanted to do HIS life, but with company. A companion who would never have any likes, dislikes, tastes that were different from his own.

Then after we dropped below 6 figures because of the economy and got scared and didnt want to go back to the Farm! (While I was all proud that I had a wife that can cook out of the gravel from the driveway almost so we'll always be ok, right? She knows how to live on next to nothing, and so do I. The difference is, I dont care about money and never have. I didnt want to be a millionaire. I seen them on the TV all the time having huge problems, so rich people still have money problems and they are bigger than my poor selfs money problems Lol!

Neither did I. I just wanted to have enough money so I could reach into my pocket, pull out enough to have a nice dinner out once in a while...without having to choose between THAT or paying rent! Is that so bad? My late ex husband once asked me, "What would you do if you found out that you won millions of dollars?" My reply was, "Probably go home and do the dishes..." HIS attitude was that he would immediately hire a maid to do the dishes. MY attitude was, "Why?"

If I want something then go use or get the money to get it, done. I noticed even when I was young that women have two big complaints about men. One is, He's a bum and wont work & provide, the second is similar, we have plenty of money, but he's never home!

You're right! Doesn't seem to be an in-between. I didn't marry either of my husbands based on their salary, or their job. In fact, I married BOTH of them while they were unemployed. All I wanted for them was to have a job they LOVED. Don't go to work each day and complain about how you're not making enough money for what you do KNOWING FULLY WELL that others in your profession make MORE than you.

It's a fine line for men to walk. It we put too much attention to either choice, the other suffers and it worked ok for me. After we went in to business she let me know when, I was working too much so hire your helper guy or brother or something. So I did. Then I liked it because I got to spend a lot more time with the family...until one day she says, you should take that service call instead of send the man. So I knew she wanted more money, lol. At first when I got busy enough to take another man on what I did was not take a man on and just raised my prices some and then I wasnt as budy anymore! I wasnt lazy I wanted to do it all up to the point to where I was still at home enough too.

I hope you DO understand that a lot of men are not like you. Unfortunately, I mostly dealt with the one's who are not...

It was my fault. I should have been better grounded in reality.

Eh. We live and learn. I think it's called 'maturing'.

I don't see what you did as your 'fault'. I've never experienced a man dang near worshipping me. Wouldn't want that either.
But I seemed to get the opposite. The men who had disdain for women. Thought of women as nothing more than servants to men. Cook...clean...have sex to the MEN's delight. And that's pretty much it. No regard for HER needs...HER desires...HER wants..HER likes or dislikes...HER tastes...HER preferences.

Does being a companion and/or a helpmate mean that it's all about HIM?

Seems like so many men and women take this whole"submission" thing way too far.

Don't ya think?

 

[MA2444]

Seems like so many men and women take this whole"submission" thing way too far.

Don't ya think?

Maybe some people do but that doesnt mean that the solution to the problem is in installing a Matriarchy, lol.

 

[Mink57]

Maybe some people do but that doesnt mean that the solution to the problem is in installing a Matriarchy, lol.

I don't think Matriarchy is the issue. Although it's been demonstrated that Matriarchal societies are much less violent than Patriarchal ones.

So, what's the solution?

 

[MA2444]

I don't think Matriarchy is the issue. Although it's been demonstrated that Matriarchal societies are much less violent than Patriarchal ones.

So, what's the solution?

The solution is in scripture!

2 Chronicals 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land..../KJV

 

[Wrangler]

Every now and then, I come across Scripture that is a testament to the divine value of inequality.

Leviticus 21:16-20
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
16 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 17 “Speak to Aaron and say: No one of your offspring throughout their generations who has a blemish may approach to offer the food of his God. 18 Indeed, no one who has a blemish shall draw near, one who is blind or lame, or one who is mutilated or deformed,[a] 19 or one who has a broken foot or a broken hand, 20 or a hunchback, or a dwarf, or a man with a defect in his eyes or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles.

Although not particularly focused on the perversion of feminism, the principle stands. Who may not approach are not equal to those who may.

 

[MA2444]

Every now and then, I come across Scripture that is a testament to the divine value of inequality.

Leviticus 21:16-20
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
16 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 17 “Speak to Aaron and say: No one of your offspring throughout their generations who has a blemish may approach to offer the food of his God. 18 Indeed, no one who has a blemish shall draw near, one who is blind or lame, or one who is mutilated or deformed,[a] 19 or one who has a broken foot or a broken hand, 20 or a hunchback, or a dwarf, or a man with a defect in his eyes or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles.

Although not particularly focused on the perversion of feminism, the principle stands. Who may not approach are not equal to those who may.

That's a good point Brother. I bet there isnt any Feminism in Heaven. What would a Feminist do in Heaven? Try to usurp God? It's been tried, lol. They failed.

 

[Wrangler]

That's a good point Brother. I bet there isnt any Feminism in Heaven. What would a Feminist do in Heaven? Try to usurp God? It's been tried, lol. They failed.

The interesting thing about Leviticus 21:16-20 is the prohibition has nothing to do with moral failing but an "accident" of birth. It goes to show that God discerns the holy, that set apart, even then.

This actually goes against the Founding Father's claim that all men are created equal. Of course, they meant for political purposes, not metaphysically or theologically.

The proper analysis is to discern along biological classifications. Genus and Differentia. At some general level, of course, we are all the same. However, the next level of detail, the differentia level, we are different. And of course, difference is unequal. The PERVERSION OF EQUALITY asserts we should value unequal things equally. Leviticus 21:16-20 shows God does not do this.

 

[Wynona]

think we need to FIRST realize that the Bible wasn't ALWAYS in existence...and neither was Patriarchy.

I maintain that patriarchy delivers better results for men and women than matriarchy. The Bible improved things for women because of it's patriarchal framework not despite it.

I don't think Matriarchy is the issue. Although it's been demonstrated that Matriarchal societies are much less violent than Patriarchal ones.

This is just not true. Wikipedia has a list of "matrilocal and matrilineal" societies. They are often very violent. North American native tribes like the Cherokee and Choctaw were not peaceful.

Danes are Vikings. They were a notorious warring, pillaging, raping sort of people.

There are many other examples but generally speaking matriarchal societies actually tend to be more violent and are not as successful or lasting as patriarchal ones.

 

[Mink57]

I maintain that patriarchy delivers better results for men and women than matriarchy. The Bible improved things for women because of it's patriarchal framework not despite it.

Improved things for women? In what way(s)?

This is just not true. Wikipedia has a list of "matrilocal and matrilineal" societies. They are often very violent. North American native tribes like the Cherokee and Choctaw were not peaceful.

I said that Matriarchal societies were much less violent; not that they had no violence in their history. About the Cherokee:

"Contrary to popular belief, these European settlers found a largely peaceful people, rich in culture and more advanced in their democracy and their political organization. For example, future generations were represented in the political process; Cherokee women were not only welcomed at decision-making council meetings, they were active political members of the community."

Indigenous peoples of the world — the Cherokee

A photo-ethnographic essay about the Cherokee ethnolinguistic minority people.

peoplesoftheworld.org

And about the Choctaw:

"Choctaws enjoyed the reputation of a peaceful, agricultural people. Their large numbers provided them with a measure of security from attack by their neighbors".

Choctaw | Encyclopedia.com

CHOCTAWS by D. L. Birchfield Overview The Choctaw nation occupies several non-contiguous blocks of land east of the Mississippi River [1].

www.encyclopedia.com

Of course, this was the way they were before European contact.

Danes are Vikings. They were a notorious warring, pillaging, raping sort of people.

"However, the Viking societies were, after all, of their time, and throughout early medieval Europe, the patriarchy ruled supreme."
In Viking societies, each gender had a distinct set of roles and expectations that could not be crossed. Men were expected to raid and trade, whilst a woman's sphere of influence was the domestic scene."

Women and power in the Viking Age: A primer

Did you know that some women in Viking societies had a significant amount of agency and freedom that some of their contemporaries in other societies did not possess?

www.thevikingherald.com

There are many other examples but generally speaking matriarchal societies actually tend to be more violent and are not as successful or lasting as patriarchal ones.

These are more commonly known as matrilineal societies, where studies record significantly less crime, violence and divorce than in traditionally patriarchal societies

5 societies around the world where women rule

The idea of women’s rule may seem alien, but in fact, history is full of examples of matriarchal societies – and some still exist today. We take a look at five for International Women’s Day

www.independent.co.uk

"Matrilineal society appears to be less abusive than the patrilineal one."

Gender differences in marital violence: A cross-ethnic study among Bengali, Garo, and Santal communities in rural Bangladesh - PMC

Studies on marital violence (MV) in Bangladesh have primarily focused on the women of the mainstream Bengali people, although half of the population is men, and there are also ethnic minority communities with diverse gender constructions. The ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“During the twentieth century, anthropologists discovered and studied dozens of different hunter-gatherer societies, in various remote parts of the world, who had been nearly untouched by modern influences. Wherever they were found - in Africa, Asia, South America, or elsewhere; in deserts or in jungles - these societies had many characteristics in common. … In each of these societies, the dominant cultural ethos was one that emphasized individual autonomy, non-directive childrearing methods, nonviolence, sharing, cooperation, and consensual decision-making. Their core value, which underlay all of the rest, was that of the equality of individuals.”

Uncovering the Truth Behind Matriarchal Societies in the Ancient World

A theme common amongst the mythology of ancient cultures is a belief in the existence of a Golden Age, when humans lived uncorrupted, in peace and harmony, experiencing prosperity and societal stability. While the theme is common, there is much variation in its form and detail across those cultures.

www.ancient-origins.net

 

[Wrangler]

matriarchal societies … are not as successful or lasting as patriarchal ones.

@mink cannot accept that existence does not bestow automatic equality. In fact, to the extent matriarchal societies exist, they are dramatically inferior in success and passing the test of time.

Like all collectivist ideologies, they ultimately fail the merit test. Capitalist countries foster competition, accept failure is an option, equality of capacity to choose - not equality of outcomes; these are the richest, cleanest, most free countries with the highest level of education, life expectancy and lifestyle in the world.

The ‘green’ movement is properly called the watermelon movement - green on the outside, red to the core inside. This Marxist group uses environment to set up communist committee’s, whereas feminist seeks to leverage sex to up communist committee’s to determine distribution of resources. They claim they will be benevolent masters but they mean to be masters.

 

[Wynona]

I wanted to talk divorce.

My husband and I reject parts of red-pill, MGTOW, and feminism. We are pro marriage and believe that, while divorce is an option, it is not a clean slate with free for all remarriage possibilities for Christians.

There are many divorced Christians who ought to remain alone or be reconciled to their original spouse depending on circumstances.

No fault divorce is a failed experiment for society.

I hate this narrative that no fault divorce is about "honoring a woman's choice". Unless you were forced at gunpoint to marry some guy, the marriage was the woman's choice to begin with. Even arranged marriages can be easily anulled in America.

The reason I get annoyed is because nowadays, anyone trying to say women should be.accountable to any relationship. standard, even standards they agreed to in the past, are the bad guy. That's ridiculous.

This over-coddling of women making bad choices really adds to my disdain for feminism.

The cherry on top seems to be that women's finances tend to go down after a divorce on average despite winnings from divorce court, while the ex-husband tends to do better over time.

After the money dries up, the woman's finances tend to go down an average of 27%.