Some key points pertaining to the parable per Luke 19:11-27.

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Davidpt

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Don't take this the wrong way, but the Word of God is rather nuanced and tends to exaggerate to convey the seriousness of the situation being conveyed. Yes, there will be destruction when the Lord returns and yes, certain parts of the World will be more afflicted than others...esp those anti-Semitic and Catholic nations. He will be viewed as the Anti-Christ, and many will seek to destroy him.

There is nothing for me to take the wrong way. I do not agree with some of these Amils to begin with, that we should take 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the literal sense where the planet is literally engulfed in flames. Some of them argue that since Noah's flood is mentioned in that chapter, and that that event was literal, as in literal water drowning them, so must the fire be literal. IOW, the same way the earth was engulfed in literal water, this time it will be engulfed in literal flames. I reject that argument.

But I do agree that the flood was a literal event involving literal water. I don't dispute that. But that is no reason to argue that the fire has to be literal as well, that it engulfs the entire planet. Especially when God said He would never do anything like that again. Amils would have us believe He does something even worse this time, because drowning compared to being burned to death, though both are a cruel way to die, it would be far worse to be burned to death, IMO.
 

grafted branch

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The parable that Jesus told, clearly states that the "Wicked Servant" had told the truth because the noble man agreed with the claims that the "Wicked Servant' made.
No, the nobleman said out of thine own mouth will I judge thee. In other words, since you knew I was austere (you judged me as austere), then you should’ve at least put the money in the bank but you didn’t even do that.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
 
J

Johann

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You should start a thread as there is a lot to share on this! I am amazed you have this understanding J. It's unique and those who hold it are richly blessed.

F2F
I'm afraid eschatology is not my strong point and the more I study the less I know.
I would rather boast in our Lord Christ Jesus than mere gnosis brother.
J.
 

CC7799

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Not all Jews missed their God and Messiah.If they had,you would have never heard any of the gospel.

Fact is,a few Jews who we call apostles believed in a literal kingdom and wanted to be in that kingdom.Some even wanted to rule in that kingdom and stated as much.

You might not believe in that kingdom as many unbelieving jews .But the Jews who believed suffered persecution and death for that kingdom.

They did not die in vain. They will receive their reward.
Agree
 

IndianaRob

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How can you prove this is talking to a regathered Israel (natural) who are now in Christ?

Future still to be fulfilled!
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

“I will take you ONE of you from a city” and “TWO of a family” AND “I will bring you to ZION”.

A few Jews were brought into Zion (heavenly Jerusalem) but the majority didn’t make it.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
 

Davidpt

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No, the nobleman said out of thine own mouth will I judge thee. In other words, since you knew I was austere (you judged me as austere), then you should’ve at least put the money in the bank but you didn’t even do that.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

While Im thinking about it since you are known to apply a lot of things to the first century that a lot of us apply to the end of this age and the second coming, what time period do you take it be involving in the parable once the nobleman has returned?
 
J

Johann

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While Im thinking about it since you are known to apply a lot of things to the first century that a lot of us apply to the end of this age and the second coming, what time period do you take it be involving in the parable once the nobleman has returned?
I think now is the time to ask what your opponents viewpoint is--

Futurism
Definition: Futurism holds that the majority of biblical prophecies, particularly those in the Book of Revelation, are yet to be fulfilled and will occur in the future.
Key Beliefs: This view anticipates events such as the rapture, the Great Tribulation, the rise of the Antichrist, the second coming of Christ, and the establishment of Christ’s Millennial Kingdom. It often involves a detailed timeline of future events.
Notable Proponents: Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and John Hagee.

2. Historicist
Definition: Historicism interprets prophetic texts as unfolding throughout the course of Christian history, from the early church to the present day, and often extending into the future.
Key Beliefs: Historicists view the prophecies of Revelation and other apocalyptic texts as describing events that occur over the span of Christian history, including periods of persecution, the rise and fall of empires, and the ongoing conflict between good and evil.
Notable Proponents: Martin Luther, William Miller, and some Puritans.

3. Idealism
Definition: Idealism, also known as symbolic or allegorical interpretation, views apocalyptic literature as symbolic or allegorical, rather than as predicting specific historical events.
Key Beliefs: Idealists interpret the imagery and language of prophetic books as expressing timeless truths about the spiritual battle between good and evil, moral and ethical teachings, rather than forecasting particular events.
Notable Proponents: Many scholars and theologians who focus on allegorical readings of Scripture.

4. Amillennialism
Definition: Amillennialism interprets the "millennium" mentioned in Revelation 20 as a symbolic period rather than a literal thousand-year reign of Christ on earth.
Key Beliefs: Amillennialists believe that the millennium is a metaphor for the current Church Age, where Christ reigns spiritually from heaven, and that the second coming, final judgment, and new creation will occur in the future.
Notable Proponents: Augustine, R.C. Sproul, and many Reformed theologians.

5. Postmillennialism
Definition: Postmillennialism teaches that Christ will return after a golden age or millennium during which the gospel will have successfully transformed the world.
Key Beliefs: Postmillennialists believe that the Church will usher in a period of peace and righteousness, leading to Christ's return and the final judgment. They see the millennium as a future period of Christian influence and growth before the second coming.
Notable Proponents: Jonathan Edwards, B.B. Warfield, and some modern Reformed theologians.

6. Dispensationalism
Definition: Dispensationalism is a form of Futurism that divides history into distinct periods or "dispensations" in which God interacts with humanity in different ways.
Key Beliefs: It emphasizes a pre-tribulation rapture, a literal interpretation of the Millennium, and the distinction between Israel and the Church. Dispensationalists often have detailed timelines of end-time events.
Notable Proponents: John Nelson Darby, C.I. Scofield, and the authors of the Scofield Reference Bible.

7. Posttribulationism
Definition: Posttribulationism is the belief that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation before the second coming of Christ.
Key Beliefs: This view holds that Christians will experience the tribulation period described in Revelation and that the rapture will occur simultaneously with Christ's second coming, rather than before it.
Notable Proponents: Many within the historic premillennial and amillennial camps.

--hence the heteron exegesis/eisegesis.
Shalom
J.
 

grafted branch

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While Im thinking about it since you are known to apply a lot of things to the first century that a lot of us apply to the end of this age and the second coming, what time period do you take it be involving in the parable once the nobleman has returned?
Well, I’ll start with when the kingdom is given to Christ. I have to speculate some on this so I’m not going to pound the table and say I’m right and everyone else is wrong, but here is what I think.

In Daniel 7:13-14 the Son of man is given dominion, glory, and a kingdom. In Ephesians 1:20-21 when Christ was raised from the dead, He was set above all principalities, power, might, and dominion.

It seems pretty straightforward that Christ was given the kingdom just after the cross. In Matthew 28:18 Jesus said all power is given me in heaven and earth. This statement was made prior to His Acts 1:9 ascension. Therefore it follows that the Luke 19:11-27 parable is talking about Christ as the nobleman when He was raised from the dead, received the kingdom, and returned as seen in John 20. In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father, in John 20:27 Thomas can touch Jesus; so the ascension, acquiring of the kingdom, and the return had all happened in a short time period.



Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch (slay) them.

Those enemies in Luke 19:27 who would not that Christ reign over them also essentially would not the Passover blood, thus keeping the sin that slew them (Romans 7:11).



Luke 19:15 then he commanded these servants to be called unto him.

Matthew 28:7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Luke 19:17 have thou authority over ten cities.

John 20:21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.



Luke 19:13And he called his ten servants,

John 20:24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Obviously Judas was already dead and Mathias was not yet an apostle, making ten servants.



All the other details linking the 10 apostles/servants to the Luke 19:11-27 parable were not recorded.

John 21:25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.



John had seven cities which were the seven churches in Revelation. Again this view has some speculation in it so take it for what it’s worth.
 

Davidpt

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It seems pretty straightforward that Christ was given the kingdom just after the cross. In Matthew 28:18 Jesus said all power is given me in heaven and earth. This statement was made prior to His Acts 1:9 ascension. Therefore it follows that the Luke 19:11-27 parable is talking about Christ as the nobleman when He was raised from the dead, received the kingdom, and returned as seen in John 20. In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father, in John 20:27 Thomas can touch Jesus; so the ascension, acquiring of the kingdom, and the return had all happened in a short time period.

One issue I see with this, not that there is only one issue, I don't see it making sense that that time period could be in view. He was only gone a cpl of days. But before He leaves, He says this to His servants, meaning the following.


Luke 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.


Who would say something like that if they don't expect to be gone more than a cpl of days? What could they possibly do to multiply this 10 pounds within a cpl of days? When He says occupy until I come, He is meaning after He leaves first, thus the ascension, then His return in the end of this age.

You might then argue none of these in the first century could still be alive some 2000 years later, though. In the event you argued that, have you never heard of a resurrection that occurs when Christ returns? There you go then, that's how those in the first century can still be alive 2000 years later, meaning after they rise from the dead first.
 

grafted branch

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One issue I see with this, not that there is only one issue, I don't see it making sense that that time period could be in view. He was only gone a cpl of days. But before He leaves, He says this to His servants, meaning the following.


Luke 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.


Who would say something like that if they don't expect to be gone more than a cpl of days? What could they possibly do to multiply this 10 pounds within a cpl of days? When He says occupy until I come, He is meaning after He leaves first, thus the ascension, then His return in the end of this age.

You might then argue none of these in the first century could still be alive some 2000 years later, though. In the event you argued that, have you never heard of a resurrection that occurs when Christ returns? There you go then, that's how those in the first century can still be alive 2000 years later, meaning after they rise from the dead first.
It may seem improbable to you that it was only a few days but it doesn’t disprove it either. There is enough evidence that it remains a possibility.

Who do you think the ten servants are? Why would only ten people be given a Mina and no one else?
 

IndianaRob

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Well, I’ll start with when the kingdom is given to Christ. I have to speculate some on this so I’m not going to pound the table and say I’m right and everyone else is wrong, but here is what I think.

In Daniel 7:13-14 the Son of man is given dominion, glory, and a kingdom. In Ephesians 1:20-21 when Christ was raised from the dead, He was set above all principalities, power, might, and dominion.

It seems pretty straightforward that Christ was given the kingdom just after the cross. In Matthew 28:18 Jesus said all power is given me in heaven and earth. This statement was made prior to His Acts 1:9 ascension. Therefore it follows that the Luke 19:11-27 parable is talking about Christ as the nobleman when He was raised from the dead, received the kingdom, and returned as seen in John 20. In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father, in John 20:27 Thomas can touch Jesus; so the ascension, acquiring of the kingdom, and the return had all happened in a short time period.



Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch (slay) them.

Those enemies in Luke 19:27 who would not that Christ reign over them also essentially would not the Passover blood, thus keeping the sin that slew them (Romans 7:11).



Luke 19:15 then he commanded these servants to be called unto him.

Matthew 28:7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Luke 19:17 have thou authority over ten cities.

John 20:21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.



Luke 19:13And he called his ten servants,

John 20:24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

Obviously Judas was already dead and Mathias was not yet an apostle, making ten servants.



All the other details linking the 10 apostles/servants to the Luke 19:11-27 parable were not recorded.

John 21:25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.



John had seven cities which were the seven churches in Revelation. Again this view has some speculation in it so take it for what it’s worth.
Have you considered that those verses about God stewardship to the Jews from the beginning and they beat and killed the prophets?
 

grafted branch

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Have you considered that those verses about God stewardship to the Jews from the beginning and they beat and killed the prophets?
Yes, it was the Jews that beat and killed the prophets, or as Jesus says in Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets.
 
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tailgator

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Would you agree that those under the altar at the fifth seal in Revelation 6:9-11 are asking how long till Jerusalem stops killing the prophets?
I would.

From my understanding, Jerusalem will start killing disciples of Jesus very soon and the persecution lasts 42 months,till Jesus comes


Mathew 10
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
 

grafted branch

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I would.

From my understanding, Jerusalem will start killing disciples of Jesus very soon and the persecution lasts 42 months,till Jesus comes


Mathew 10
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Ok, then the little season that the fifth seal martyrs have to wait for is definitely not a 2,000 year period, right?

If so then the obvious problem is why would anyone now, be asking the Revelation 6:10 question of “how long”. Both you and I know the answer is to rest a little season, no need to ask the question in the first place.

The question of “how long” had to have been asked prior to the book of Revelation being published. If someone asks the question now it would show a lack of faith in believing what the Bible already says. Kinda like if someone were to die and ask Jesus where He was born, we all know it was Bethlehem.
 

tailgator

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Many Jews did come out when Jesus died and rose
Then they must have laid back down to rest a while longer .The nation of Israel is born in one day.


Ezekiel 37
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.
 

tailgator

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Many Jews did come out when Jesus died and rose
Isaiah 66:8
Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.


Zion is not founded till after Babylon is destroyed.