Signs

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well I looked up this Tabernacle experience and of course the web yielded some results.
I have typed it out as the site did not allow copy/paste, but I am including this link to verify. What I refer to below, is located at the end of the post.

I have no problems copying/pasting (select text with mouse, right-click and select copy or press <ctrl><ins>)

 

[laid renard]

Before he passed away, my dad was Catholic. And one of my bible-thumping brothers, (sorry I don't know the PC term and will take any suggestions for the correct term :)), would tell him he was not saved even though my dad believed in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as all Catholics do. This would upset my dad.
Well, the year my dad passed away, it was the 16th day of March. 3/16. Ahem.....3:16 ;)

I believe that was a sign from God to calm down my brother. When I told him he didn't seem too enthusiastic about it though.

I think God gives us signs all the time. Just the fact that we are all alive is the biggest sign of all !

Why would God give us signs if He didn't want us to look for them ?

All of creation is a sign.

 

[Niki]

I have no problems copying/pasting (select text with mouse, right-click and select copy or press <ctrl><ins>)

Thanks...normally neither do I..however, this site, unless it was a temp glich, did not allow it.

Before he passed away, my dad was Catholic. And one of my bible-thumping brothers, (sorry I don't know the PC term and will take any suggestions for the correct term :)), would tell him he was not saved even though my dad believed in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as all Catholics do. This would upset my dad.
Well, the year my dad passed away, it was the 16th day of March. 3/16. Ahem.....3:16 ;)

I believe that was a sign from God to calm down my brother. When I told him he didn't seem too enthusiastic about it though.

I think God gives us signs all the time. Just the fact that we are all alive is the biggest sign of all !

Why would God give us signs if He didn't want us to look for them ?

All of creation is a sign.

Yes...I believe Catholics who have accepted Jesus as their Savior are certainly saved.

But, this thread is not about that type of sign...its about a spiritual experience in which the partaker allows an unknown spirit, that they state is the Holy Spirit,
to enter their body and tell them what to do...control varies from person to person I guess.

That is not what you relate although what you relate is significant in and of itself.

 

[laid renard]

Yes...I believe Catholics who have accepted Jesus as their Savior are certainly saved.

But, this thread is not about that type of sign...its about a spiritual experience in which the partaker allows an unknown spirit, that they state is the Holy Spirit,
to enter their body and tell them what to do...control varies from person to person I guess.

That is not what you relate although what you relate is significant in and of itself.

OOPS !!!

 

[Just here]

Before he passed away, my dad was Catholic. And one of my bible-thumping brothers, (sorry I don't know the PC term and will take any suggestions for the correct term :)), would tell him he was not saved even though my dad believed in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as all Catholics do. This would upset my dad.
Well, the year my dad passed away, it was the 16th day of March. 3/16. Ahem.....3:16 ;)

I believe that was a sign from God to calm down my brother. When I told him he didn't seem too enthusiastic about it though.

I think God gives us signs all the time. Just the fact that we are all alive is the biggest sign of all !

Why would God give us signs if He didn't want us to look for them ?

All of creation is a sign.

This is exactly an example of what the OP is talking about laid!

The OP is also talking about miracles, personal revelation, but anything that is from God (like you mentioned in your post) is a sign from God! You are right - His creation itself is a sign! Amen! We can see Him everywhere - we just need to look for Him!

Good post!

 

[pompadour]

Niki: I think all the lights are on but no one's home.
Pomp.

 

[laid renard]

This is exactly an example of what the OP is talking about laid!

The OP is also talking about miracles, personal revelation, but anything that is from God (like you mentioned in your post) is a sign from God! You are right - His creation itself is a sign! Amen! We can see Him everywhere - we just need to look for Him!

Good post!

Hi Just here !

I came on to say words to that effect, cause I remember reading the OP, but for a moment after reading the response, I thought I had responded the answer to it on a different topic. I did that once at another forum lol !!

Yes. My post was relevant. Thanx !! :lol:

 

[Just here]

Hi Just here !

I came on to say words to that effect, cause I remember reading the OP, but for a moment after reading the response, I thought I had responded the answer to it on a different topic. I did that once at another forum lol !!

Yes. My post was relevant. Thanx !! :lol:

I've done that before, too, feel pretty silly but it is all soon forgotten. :)

God bless you!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

My experience is that these experiential groups often lack any foundation that carries believers into genuine lasting and growing maturity (and please don't misunderstand, I am not claiming all charismatics to be only experiential..some do teach the word regularly and do not emphasize experiences very much).

This is a big problem, and why I stress doctrine foremost even though I strongly believe in manifestations of the spirit in power. Most of what we see (99.9999% IMO) is unfortunately hokus pokus perpetuated by con artists and self-indulgent liars. There is probably a lot of genuine stuff we don't see because it is off the radar, but that is just speculation on my part. Bottom line: obedience to the doctrine of Christ will save a person; performing 'miracles' and other such stuff will not.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:22-23

This whole discussion is rather unsettling for me because I know both Justin (on some level) and those who stress doctrine (yourself, Niki) are right. I have a dire need to see the two synthesized.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

When you step back and look at things isn't it strange that people would actually argue against seeking to experience God?

Blessings,

Justin

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When you step back and look at things isn't it strange that people would actually argue against seeking to experience God?

Some of it is due to fear and unbelief, some of it is due to a prudence that recognizes the dangers of venturing out into the deep without a functioning doctrinal helm and rudder.

 

[Niki]

OOPS !!!

LOL! I bust out laughing at this...thanks :) You're OK! My dad was Catholic too...but he converted...and was a believer...like I said, Jesus is the Savior..not
what denom we are ~

This is a big problem, and why I stress doctrine foremost even though I strongly believe in manifestations of the spirit in power. Most of what we see (99.9999% IMO) is unfortunately hokus pokus perpetuated by con artists and self-indulgent liars. There is probably a lot of genuine stuff we don't see because it is off the radar, but that is just speculation on my part. Bottom line: obedience to the doctrine of Christ will save a person; performing 'miracles' and other such stuff will not.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:22-23

This whole discussion is rather unsettling for me because I know both Justin (on some level) and those who stress doctrine (yourself, Niki) are right. I have a dire need to see the two synthesized.

Yeah...the moment I mentionned being careful in this thread I was jumped on and accused of being a dried up old prune...not in those words of course, but a doctrine only
person who has to blow the spider webs off themself when they get up in the morning.

Now, even though I have posted what this is actually about...the Tabernacle experience, wherein you HAVE TO ASK a spirt to enter you, no one is alarmed and the op
ignores me.

On that site, there is at least one article written by the op...and doesn't anyone else understand that once the Holy Spirit already resides in you , you DO NOT ask another
spirt to enter you so that you can feeeeeeel the love?

That is what this thread is actually about and the subject has been introduced in a sly manner, IMO, so that some just do not see that and think it means ALL things that
the Holy Spirit does when in fact it means NO SUCH THING!!! This, is what deception is and people think it can't happen, but it has happened and it is happening.

It's like the prophets of old (and no I don't think I am a prophet) who did everything under the sun to get to people to repent and yet they would not. In this day and age,
we have people who just accept anything as being from the Holy Spirit even though we are to test the spirits. Feeling good is not proof of anything.

So, again, like the prophets of old, you can warn and shout and scream and dance on your head...it doesn't matter. People go rushing after the feelings and the goosebumps
and ignore all the warnings and God forbid anyone should actually consult the Bible to see if this hocus pocus is actually God.

Dear All,

When you step back and look at things isn't it strange that people would actually argue against seeking to experience God?

Blessings,

Justin

Let me be polite Justin. Your thread is absolutely not at all about experiences that actually do come from God. Your thread, is about ONE experience...the experience
you are calling the Tabernacle experience...the website you have at the bottom of your posts will connect with that site but that is not how I found out about it.

What you are doing, makes me ill quite frankly. I firmly believe in the power of God and I am filled with the Holy Spirit and I do speak in tongues. I have seen miraculous
things in my life and I know God heals, He restores, He leads and guides.

And that is how I know that what you are actually trying to introduce here, has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. You are not really being truthful IMO with your actual
purpose.

You have chosen to ignore my questions to you because, if you answer truthfully, you will have to own up to what I just stated.

The Tabernacle experience is not of God. You state we should ask a spirit to enter us...calling it the Holy Spirit does not make it the Holy Spirit.

If you are spirit filled, you ALREADY have the Holy Spirit inside of you....where in scripture are we told to invite something else in when we already
are indwelt by the Sprit of God?

You are not being truthful. Your weak accusation that I or anyone else do not want to experience God is a load of ...well, what farmers scrape out of the barn.

You are selling imitation pearls here.

This is a big problem, and why I stress doctrine foremost even though I strongly believe in manifestations of the spirit in power. Most of what we see (99.9999% IMO) is unfortunately hokus pokus perpetuated by con artists and self-indulgent liars. There is probably a lot of genuine stuff we don't see because it is off the radar, but that is just speculation on my part. Bottom line: obedience to the doctrine of Christ will save a person; performing 'miracles' and other such stuff will not.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:22-23

This whole discussion is rather unsettling for me because I know both Justin (on some level) and those who stress doctrine (yourself, Niki) are right. I have a dire need to see the two synthesized.

I believe what scripture teaches. I believe in the infilling of the Holy Spirit...as per the disciples experience on the day of Pentecost. I believe we are to be self controlled, not controlled
by a spirit. I believe that God directs, leads and answers...first through His Word and secondly through the guidance and leading of His Spirit. I believe people get into trouble
when they throw aside the Word in favor of feelings, 'voices', unidentified spirits who 'act' like they are of God,

I believe in ALL the gifts of the Spirit, BUT as God bestows them as per the Bible...I do not believe you can or should 'teach' people to prophesy...that is another load of hooey...
the Bible clearly defines how the gifts operate and clearly defines how a Christian should behave.

The Bible also states that people are known by the FRUIT they produce...the fruit of the Holy Spirit...peace, joy, longsuffering, patience etc. The fruit of the Holy Spirit grows
in our lives as we follow Jesus and lay down our lives for Him...as we grow in the presence of God we are also told we shall have to endure and many other things none of
which produce happy happy purple dinosaur feelings because that is NOT what the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is about.

People are producing apparitions and weird sensations..produced by the demonic acting on the nervous system and it is nothing new. For example, we have that old, but
still VERY relevant book, War on the Saints, by Jesse Penn Lewis...which details the demonic deception that follows any outpouring of the Holy Spirit...revival or awakenings.

If anyone is interested, here is a link to the online version. There is nothing new under the sun...the so called Tabernacle experience is not biblical and I would have
nothing to do with it. I understand how well demons can imitate and pretend to by sent from God. It has happened through the ages and continues and will get worse.

 

[Just here]

Dear All,

When you step back and look at things isn't it strange that people would actually argue against seeking to experience God?

Blessings,

Justin

Hey Justin!

I hear you, I don't get it either.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Niki,

I understand your concern. I believe Justin is a godly man. I don't necessarily agree with his vision; and some of his ideas/teachings do concern me. However, I do bear witness to what is described in this article that he wrote - http://www.thefinalfeast.com/1279/2012/11/30/

I think the events described therein embody, at least to some degree, what Justin is trying to convey.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear Nikki,

Their are always those who must persecute those who wish to hear and do the voice and will of our Father. I don't identify with the spirit that is coming from you in your posts...it is not the voice of my Father. I hope you find the way because Tabernacles is coming and if you perecute it then you will end up harming your brethren.


Blessings,

Justin

Dear All,

You know, there is always a difficult time pulling up your doctrinal stakes and moving on as God moves. This is to be expected and I understand. I started out as a Free Will Baptist. My heart is to help others start to listen to God and experience the abundant life in Him.

I guess the problem is that people do not realize how much more of God is avaliable to them. I think if they did they might be more eager to lay hold of it. All that has happened to me is that I have, like the lepers, found that there is food and riches beyond the wall and I want to tell everyone in the city that it is free for the taking. (2 Kings chapter 7)

I realize this is difficult for some and even more than others but I believe in my heart that most of us long for more of God.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Niki]

My name is Justin and I am a Tabernacle Christian. I profess to be a Tabernacle Christian in much the same way others profess to be Pentecostal Christians: The Tabernacle experience defines me.

Though I have formal theological training I believe that all truth comes through revelation from God. I believe this is how God originally intended the whole of the human race to interact with Him. Unfortunately, through sin, that communion was broken. Thankfully, through Christ, that communion can be restored.

I am currently developing the theology of Tabernacles. The working title of my book is, "The Final Feast: The Truth about the Coming Feast of Tabernacles."

Tabernacles is about becoming one with God and the manifestation of the spiritual fulfillment of this feast is Divine Love.



Well, I guess you are thusly defined. I am defined by my walk with Christ. I think you may be on your way to starting a cult. We really don't need anymore of those.

Apparently, you have pulled up the anchor and set sail despite the warnings in scripture and you seek experience as comfirmation of the existence of God.

I guess this is existentialism in it's religious form.

Their are always those who must persecute those who wish to hear and do the voice and will of our Father. I don't identify with the spirit that is coming from you in your posts...it is not the voice of my Father. I hope you find the way because Tabernacles is coming and if you perecute it then you will end up harming your brethren.

You are not God Justin. You pose no threat to me or anyone else who tells you that you are in error. Even though you have resorted to the false prophet technique of trying
to scare me into submission, it is not going to work. I bow the knee only to Jesus Christ. He alone is Lord. You on the other hand, are way off course and I'm sorry for that
but you have really given away your hand now with false accusation.

LOL re the persecution. Listen, you are free to pursue eating prunes ... I persecute no one. I only speak up when I see deception at work. Just like here.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and Life. And He already found ME. There is salvation under no other Name and whatever it is you are about? I can promise you
that 1. It is false and 2. you have no sway over God with regards to my life or anyone elses.

I don't think you really know who you are serving with your false words and threats. I am well aware you have a merry little band...however, I prefer to follow The Way...
not your way.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What I don't like Justin is how you stand back and make an occasional comment, and leave us to sort out what it is that you are actually trying to communicate, that in many cases is too vague to get a clear idea of what it is you are saying. Without your active participation clearly designating the path to take, it leaves too much room for misunderstandings and misrepresentations. It is like you are standing at a distance reproving us for not being obedient when you encounter a little resistance. Come closer. I already mentioned I bear witness to your story linked to above. I have experienced similar things.

 

[Niki]

Niki,

I understand your concern. I believe Justin is a godly man. I don't necessarily agree with his vision; and some of his ideas/teachings do concern me. However, I do bear witness to what is described in this article that he wrote - http://www.thefinalfeast.com/1279/2012/11/30/

I think the events described therein embody, at least to some degree, what Justin is trying to convey.

No one ever said he wasn't sincere. I think he is. Yes, sincere and very dangerous...deceived by a false spirit. What he proposes, is not Christianity, not biblical and
sounds lovely and all...it's all about feelings...not truth. There is absolutely no scripture to back up his experience with this 'spirit of love'...do you think he is the first
to propose such a thing?

The problem, is a mix of truth and error. People want to know God..but the emphasis is allowing and encouraging interaction with the spirit world.

Again, his or anyone's elses sincerity is not in question...the so called revelation is extra biblical and as such, should not even be considered.

Everyone really has to make their own choice, don't they? And choose they will. I've made mine. Justin sees himself as a prophet I think, or he wouldn't
make claims to what is supposedly 'coming' and warn me about persecuting the brethren. That is so ridiculous a thought that only someone who thinks they
know more than anyone else would make such a statement.

Is he equating this new gospel with Jesus meeting Paul? Sounds like it. Walk away while you can. That's my take on it.

What I don't like Justin is how you stand back and make an occasional comment, and leave us to sort out what it is that you are actually trying to communicate, that in many cases is too vague to get a clear idea of what it is you are saying. Without your active participation clearly designating the path to take, it leaves too much room for misunderstandings and misrepresentations. It is like you are standing at a distance reproving us for not being obedient when you encounter a little resistance. Come closer. I already mentioned I bear witness to your story linked to above. I have experienced similar things.

OK I read it. The article you linked to. So? Frankly, I don't agree with all that I read...but that is not my main objection. I am referring to the practice of asking a spirit
to enter you and direct you.

Hello. The Holy Spirit is already inside of us and already leading as we allow.

I have experienced 'similar' things as well....leading, prayer with others etc etc...I am no stranger to things like that...so, it is ridiculous to continue (not you but Justin and others)
and try to make the case that I am a Christian in words only or doctrine and have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. That argument is a red herring to avoid dealing with
the experience which is not scriptural. Period.

I have gone back and read several threads wherein Justin has interacted and found that people continuously object to his neglect of the Word in favor
of feelings or experience.

And here we are again.

You know, I do research, and so really it has not been hard to find the info.

Here is link going back to Dec 2012 and it is a thread about Justin's beliefs. Someone else has done their homework.

You all should do your homework too. I'm not the non-believer here...I totally believe which is why I know that this Tabernacle experience is hokum and wrong

There is a mix of error and truth in this thing, so of course some of it seems plausible.

From the other thread which I really advise anyone and everyone with an open mind who is not afraid to use it, to go and read. Use your brain...that is why you have one.

Some of Justins words

For me, this means preaching in the heart of Africa. As we target those who live in this type of marriage

We will focus on those younger adults, ages 18 through 25, both male and female,

We must be careful never to overly centralize our movement so that even if one part is hindered the remaining parts that are left can still function.

we must seek to work in places where we will go realatively unnoticed

I estimate that it will take 10 to 15 years of evangelizing and discipleship before the first wave produces the beginnings of the second wave.

By starting with newly evangelized people we will not have to “un-teach” them

Those are Justin's words. Does that sound like a plan from God who works in the hearts and minds of men and women or does that sounds like someone who has studied
psychology and is now going to apply it in AFRICA where the spiritual hedges are already down and it is easy pickings for the unscrupulous...I say wolf in sheep's clothing

Why go unnoticed Justin? Jesus hung naked on a cross so that He would be noticed....His words are for everyone not just a select few that you can deter into your...teaching

 

[Angelina]

Justin, I know you know that Scripture tells us plainly that "man does not live on bread alone, but every word that comes from the mouth of God." So the idea that you would encourage someone to "lay down the 'word' for a bit and just concentrate of his Spirit" is very troublesome. To place a wedge between Word and Spirit is very unbiblical and leads to emotionalism and all sorts of heresy. Now obviously someone can have the word and not the Spirit, but you dont set aside the word to be a person of the Spirit. Quite the opposite. I worry you are overly fixated on experiences and are overly proud of your personal perceptions and convictions...attributing it all to "the Spirit." I dont think the Spirit would ever encourage someone to set down the Word.

Amen Wormwood!

I agree with you there... :)

BB

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

This is just another typical tactic of those who cannot stand to have real questions put before them. You don't like what I say, so, in your economy I must be angry

I consider that a cheap shot. You can write holy all day long, but that does not make you better than me or any other Christian. Experiences do not make us holy.

Only the blood of Christ makes us holy. If God allows us to have an experience, it is not so that it can supersede the word.

I doubt you have amazing peace and joy 24 hours a day. Every single person in the Bible including Jesus, experienced otherwise.


Guess what? I believe you when you say you don't understand what I wrote. Yes, I really do.

So far, you have told me I am angry, that I limit God, that I am thankless, that I don't believe I can come before my heavenly Father, that you have this
great walk with God that is better than the Bible and that you go to many other sources beside the Bible for truth.

You sure seem to think you know an awful lot about other people LOL!

I've noticed that these sign and wonders folk love to covet their personal experience and woe unto them who challenge it by the word of God. Of course we have the placid type who like to sound super-spiritual by using calm and flowery words so as to disarm the situation and make the questioner look bad and them hyper-spiritual.

So if your speech isn't like silk and smooth like the serpent one mustn't be that spiritual or are on the path to said end, whatever that means. You will note those who leave the path of righteousness, seek subjective 'experiences' in the "spirit". They determine the truth of a matter by how it feels and appears to look, rather than the word of God. Which we know as the Word of Christ.

Talking to them is like speaking to a drunk. Almost conscious and definitely incoherent. :)