Should Christians Always Be Healed?

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Hidden In Him

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Clearly you do not understand what I'm saying.


Not to worry. That comment wasn't addressing anything you said. You'll forgive me, but I'm actually talking over you to all the faith teachers I've heard over the years, and talking more to Mayflower than anyone else right now, because she belongs to a Faith church and has gotten some very good things out of it.

I'm simply sharing with her where I think they are correct but also where many Faith teachers are getting it wrong.
 

marks

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Since some of the people dear to me have suffered various kinds of abuse (and many on this board also), I have to say with gentleness and sadness that you don't just "get over it". But time and love are good healers.
For me it's a kind of "beating the sheep" thing. Those who see themselves above the rest, who will castigate them for their 'lack of faith'. Without themselves having the that same kind of faith!

Much love!
 

TEXBOW

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"Flesh" means body in that context. It is the body which has physical ailments. Paul could have been crippled by the beatings he was given. His eyesight may not have be perfect since Damascus, since he signed off his epistles with "large letters". It could have been anything else. But "a thorn in the flesh" means "a constant irritation in the body".
Some just cannot help themselves, they have this need to spiritualize any scripture that gives them a crack to do so.
 

Mayflower

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Ok, now let me address some positives. The entire 15th minute is good, especially what she says into the sixteenth minute that faith is a confidence, a knowing on the inside. But now, one needs to make a distinction here that many Faith teachers don't always make: It is not a "principle" you put in motion but the Spirit of God moving through you. By that, I mean Faith is not something you can muster up through confession until you finally talk yourself into it. I don't know if they teach that part of it, but it is an incorrect approach to how true faith operates. Faith is not something you muster up, it is something that is either present or it is not, based upon how much the Spirit abides within you, and that as a result of attending to prayer, worship, ministry and the word of God, for His words are Spirit and they are Life.

Disciples of Copeland especially will speak of applying "formulas" of how faith works, but the center of Christianity is not about operating in formulas but about being submitted the Lord Jesus Christ as His servant, and like Him, doing what the Father does and saying what the Father says, being led of the Spirit, not a rote set of rules and principles that will yield desired results.

I don't know if I explained that well enough or not, but this is a distinction that needs to be made between walking in true Biblical faith and just trying to use both God and scripture to attain His promises without needing to submit to Him personally and receive what His specific will is concerning matters on a moment to moment, day to day basis.

Faith is something you have to walk in. Everyone has been given a measure of faith, but not everyone chooses to walk in it. Each are given a measure of faith. The same measure/same amount.

Romans 12:3 says, “For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.”

I agree, and my church would use the Word too in that it isn't just words. People have to walk in faith for things to come to pass and no one has arrived as long as we are on earth. We are always learning and growing in our walks.

God's will is shown in His Word. If His Word points to healing always being His will, it is.

I would say the New Covenant is a new and better Covenant. What do you think of "By His stripes we are healed." Do you believe this counts for the physical as well as the spiritual?
 

Hidden In Him

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God's will is shown in His Word. If His Word points to healing always being His will, it is.

Ok, well whether it actually is or not is something we have been discussing in this thread.

So how about this: You respond to Post #159 for starters, and I will respond to your question about Isaiah 53:5 : )
 
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Curtis

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even people who die of natural causes die because of a weakness of something.

If God healed every person. he would heal that weakness.. and again, no one would die
You absolutely have it completely wrong.

Healing is available to all Christians because the atonement of Jesus is not just for the forgiveness of sins, but is comprehensive - it covers spiritual, emotional and physical healing.

Isaiah 53:4 is claimed by some Christians as only being spiritual healing - forgiveness of sins, but the word translated as healed, means to be completely healed in every way as seen in KJV with Strongs numbers:

Isa 53:5 But he H1931  was wounded H2490  for our transgressions, H4480 H6588  he was bruised H1792  for our iniquities: H4480 H5771  the chastisement H4148  of our peace H7965  was upon H5921  him; and with his stripes H2250we are healed. H7495

Healed is number H7495 in Strongs Hebrew dictionary, defined as:

H7495 (Strong)


râphâ' râphâh

raw-faw', raw-faw'

A primitive root; properly to mend (by stitching), that is, (figuratively) to cure: - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See H7503.

Total KJV occurrences: 68

His stripes made us thoroughly wholes, which is confirmed in the New Testament where the greek word SOZO is translated both as saved and as healed, because His atonement covers the gamut of spiritual, emotional and physical healing:

1Pe 2:24 Who G3739  his own self G848  bare G399  our G2257  sins G266  in G1722  his own G848  body G4983  on G1909  the G3588  tree, G3586  that G2443  we, being dead G581  to sins, G266  should live G2198  unto righteousness: G1343  by whose G3739  stripes G3468ye were healed. G2390

Word G2390 is the word healed, defined as:

G2390 (Strong)

ἰάομαι

iaomai

ee-ah'-om-ahee

Middle voice of apparently a primary verb; to cure (literally or figuratively): - heal, make whole.

Total KJV occurrences: 28

Romans 10:13 for just one example: whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be SOZO (saved).

SOZO: (made completely whole - spiritually, emotionally, and physically)

Thus Romans 10:13 says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be made completely whole.

Therefore it’s clear that the atonement of Jesus is not limited to forgiveness of sins alone - thus any believer who’s sins are forgiven has His complete atonement available to them, with the caveat that in Christianity you only get the promises you believe in.

If a believer is taught God doesn’t heal today, they might have rock-solid faith that Jesus saves souls and His atonement covers sins, but have zero faith that healing is available to all who are saved.

Scripture makes clear that everyone Jesus healed physically was done in fulfillment of the Isaiah 53:4 atonement prophecy:

Mat 8:16 That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.

Mat 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.”

The only way He could have healed people physically to fulfill His atonement healing prophecy, is because physical healing is included in it.

This being so, one would expect to find physical healing linked to the forgiveness of sins in scripture- which is exactly what is found.

Psalm 103 says the benefits of God are that He forgives ALL our sins and heals ALL our disease.

James 5 also links physical healing and forgiveness of sins:

Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

The clincher is found in Jesus healing a paralytic by forgiving his sins:

Luk 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?

Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

Luk 5:25 And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.

To review why physical healing is for today for all who by faith have the healing atonement of Christ applied to them:

The Bible shows us healing is available for everyone who has been saved, and born again:

1) Healing is the children’s bread; (Matt. 15:22-28)

2) Jesus already healed us by His stripes (1 Peter 2:24).

3) Jesus healed everyone who was sick, in fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophesy that He took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses

Matthew 8:16-17, (refers to Isaiah 53:4-5, the Atonement of Jesus).

4) The benefits of God is He forgiveness ALL our sins and heals ALL our diseases Psalm 103:3;

Also, many are the afflictions of the righteous but God delivers them out of THEM ALL,
Psalm 34:19

5) Healing is such a part of His atonement that Jesus healed a paralytic by forgiving his sins: “pick up your mat and walk, your sins have been forgiven”. Luke 5:20-25

Psalm 103:3, Luke 5:20-25, and James 5:13-15 all link physical healing with forgiveness of sin.

Why? It’s part of salvation - of being made completely whole, spiritually, emotionally, and physically - SOZO - interchangeably translated in the Bible, as ‘saved’, and ‘healed’.

The Hebrew in Isaiah 53:5 means: by His wounds, bruises, and stripes, we are made completely whole.

Not partially whole, with just our sins forgiven, but made completely whole.

This is really just the tip of the topic.
 
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MatthewG

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Healed from affliction, healed from sin, healed from darkness, healed from psychical problems (I don’t believe this happens like it did in Jesus day but God can maybe bring you back to life or something being considered dead for a moment after an accident or something),


Something should get healed maybe.

Healed in your heart, mind, will, emotion. Assuredly by the spirit, reading and praying giving alms to God and the Lord Yeshua.
 
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Curtis

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Now, the question becomes this: If it is always God's will to heal, what was He doing here? If you take the position that it is always His desire to heal and never to bring judgment through sickness and death,

It His will to heal all who are born again and saved because the atonement of Jesus is comprehensive, and not limited to spiritual healing alone - but it’s ridiculous to say anyone claims it is His will to heal those who are not walking the Christian walk, or to heal those being chastised by Him for wrongdoing.

Scripture is clear that not treating one’s spouse with enough respect blocks answers to prayer, and so does unforgiveness, for only two examples of things that block the healing available to Christians.
 
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Curtis

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Healed from affliction, healed from sin, healed from darkness, healed from psychical problems (I don’t believe this happens like it did in Jesus day but God can maybe bring you back to life or something being considered dead for a moment after an accident or something),

If healing isn’t for today, or available to all believers, then salvation isn’t either, because Jesus’ atonement covers the gamut of healing: spiritual, physical, and emotional.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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You absolutely have it completely wrong.

Healing is available to all Christians because the atonement of Jesus is not just for the forgiveness of sins, but is comprehensive - it covers spiritual, emotional and physical healing.

I agree, Healing is available to all christians.

It does not mean everyone will be healed.

A few examples have been given here prove that not everyone will be healed. Yet these people have glorified God in their weekness..
 

MatthewG

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One day I’m gonna lose this body. And if I lose my eyesight so be it. If I lose my walking ability so be it. If I lose my ability to eat like I can now, so be it. Those are my thoughts.

Death is inevitable such as psychical decay.

Though the spirit brings forth life more abundantly with Jesus Christ as our King in our heart as the kingdom of God is within you, believer.
 
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Mayflower

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Well that's a good answer. :)

Now I also can recognize certain familiar patterns of ministry that kinda give away where his influences are probably coming from, but I'll leave that alone and just focus on what he is preaching, and I'll try and comment on what I view as both the bad and the good; the right and the wrong.

I'm currently at 10:00, and he is saying the very thing I was telling Marks and Eternally Grateful is one of the big problems Faith people have with non-WoF believers: This notion that you just need to let God be God, and "He's gonna do whatever He wants to do," so we can't force the hand of God and yaddayaddayadda. I'm guessing we will likely agree on the rest of what he says about that.

But before progressing, his opening statement that "It is always God's will to heal" is where I discovered there is a problem. I posted it earlier in this thread, in Post #26. This is actually only one of at least a half dozen passages I can quote for you that pose a problem to this position, but let me start with this one:

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.(1 Corinthians 11:27-32)

Now what Paul was teaching here in this section of 1st Corinthians was this: They were letting a spirit of division conquer them, so badly in fact that they weren't even taking communion together any more. Some were coming earlier, gobbling up the food, and leaving nothing for poorer believers who came later. And their divisions were essentially destroying the spiritual temple of God, which is why Paul warned them in Chapter 5, saying, "If you destroy the temple of God, God will destroy you." This is also what he is referring to in verses 30-32 above. Because they were bringing the church of God there to destruction through their division, the Lord Himself was bringing sickness and even death upon some of them, just as he brought death to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts, and Jezebel and her family in Revelations 2. By taking communion amongst the saints of God, they were publicly declaring that they were members of His body, yet by their actions their were destroying that body, thus making themselves "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord."

Now, the question becomes this: If it is always God's will to heal, what was He doing here? If you take the position that it is always His desire to heal and never to bring judgment through sickness and death, for starters there are several passages that contradict this argument, but the key question is, how can He ever discipline His people? The typical argument among Faith people here is that God disciplines through His word, and that He doesn't need to discipline through punishments. But this runs entirely contrary to not only New Testament texts but a whole slew of Old Testament texts as well. The entire Babylonian captivity episode was one of dozens of instances where God specifically punished the people of Israel, and only one of the ways He could choose to do it. And as your pastor later quotes, Deuteronomy 28 included curses upon those who did not obey the commands of God. His judgments were His means of carrying these things out, and they were most certainly HIM carrying them out, not Satan.

I can prove this to you if you want to look at several passages, but that is a short summary of the central problem with the argument that it is always God's desire to heal. Sometimes it is His will to bring judgment, and even death upon those who are bringing potential spiritual death to His people.

Give me till the weekend to respond. I just got home two hours ago and the little time online I have in the mornings and after the kids get to sleep is way not enough to sit and chew on something thoroughly.

But first, here is my mindset.

Before Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden, there was no curse or sickness, right? In Heaven there is no more sickness, no more death either. Doesn't Jesus ask in the Lord's prayer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." Luke 11

If God's will in Heaven is no more sickness or death, wouldn't that be His will on earth as well? The curse of sin brought death in the world, but that wasn't God's original intention for mankind. He made a way through Jesus Christ.
 
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Mayflower

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Well that's a good answer. :)

Now I also can recognize certain familiar patterns of ministry that kinda give away where his influences are probably coming from, but I'll leave that alone and just focus on what he is preaching, and I'll try and comment on what I view as both the bad and the good; the right and the wrong.

I'm currently at 10:00, and he is saying the very thing I was telling Marks and Eternally Grateful is one of the big problems Faith people have with non-WoF believers: This notion that you just need to let God be God, and "He's gonna do whatever He wants to do," so we can't force the hand of God and yaddayaddayadda. I'm guessing we will likely agree on the rest of what he says about that.

But before progressing, his opening statement that "It is always God's will to heal" is where I discovered there is a problem. I posted it earlier in this thread, in Post #26. This is actually only one of at least a half dozen passages I can quote for you that pose a problem to this position, but let me start with this one:

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.(1 Corinthians 11:27-32)

Now what Paul was teaching here in this section of 1st Corinthians was this: They were letting a spirit of division conquer them, so badly in fact that they weren't even taking communion together any more. Some were coming earlier, gobbling up the food, and leaving nothing for poorer believers who came later. And their divisions were essentially destroying the spiritual temple of God, which is why Paul warned them in Chapter 5, saying, "If you destroy the temple of God, God will destroy you." This is also what he is referring to in verses 30-32 above. Because they were bringing the church of God there to destruction through their division, the Lord Himself was bringing sickness and even death upon some of them, just as he brought death to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts, and Jezebel and her family in Revelations 2. By taking communion amongst the saints of God, they were publicly declaring that they were members of His body, yet by their actions their were destroying that body, thus making themselves "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord."

Now, the question becomes this: If it is always God's will to heal, what was He doing here? If you take the position that it is always His desire to heal and never to bring judgment through sickness and death, for starters there are several passages that contradict this argument, but the key question is, how can He ever discipline His people? The typical argument among Faith people here is that God disciplines through His word, and that He doesn't need to discipline through punishments. But this runs entirely contrary to not only New Testament texts but a whole slew of Old Testament texts as well. The entire Babylonian captivity episode was one of dozens of instances where God specifically punished the people of Israel, and only one of the ways He could choose to do it. And as your pastor later quotes, Deuteronomy 28 included curses upon those who did not obey the commands of God. His judgments were His means of carrying these things out, and they were most certainly HIM carrying them out, not Satan.

I can prove this to you if you want to look at several passages, but that is a short summary of the central problem with the argument that it is always God's desire to heal. Sometimes it is His will to bring judgment, and even death upon those who are bringing potential spiritual death to His people.

Actually pastor did mention Ananias and Sapphira in one of his sermons, but I do not remember how. It was concerning why healing doesn't always happen. I would see judgement here as a reason why healing didn't happen, but it wasn't God's will for Ananias and Sapphira to steal either. They brought that on themselves.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Before Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden, there was no curse or sickness, right? In Heaven there is no more sickness, no more death either. Doesn't Jesus ask in the Lord's prayer, "They will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

If God's will in Heaven is no more sickness or death, wouldn't that be His will on earth as well? The curse of sin brought death in the world, but that wasn't God's original intention for mankind. He made a way through Jesus Christ.

:) Yes. His will is that all people be well, just as it is His will that all men be saved; with this I fully agree.

But the question at hand is this: Is it always His will that everyone be healed, and that no one experience His judgment or discipline.
Give me till the weekend to respond. I just got home two hours ago and the little time online I have in the mornings and after the kids get to sleep is way not enough to sit and chew on something thoroughly.

Take your time. This thread isn't going anywhere : )

Glad you are pacing yourself this holiday season, sister. Remain at peace, and be blessed in all things.
Your brother, Hidden

The Beauty Of Christmas!
 
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Mayflower

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:) Yes. His will is that all people be well, just as it is His will that all men be saved; with this I fully agree.

But the question at hand is this: Is it always His will that everyone be healed, and that no one experience His judgment or discipline.


Take your time. This thread isn't going anywhere : )

Glad you are pacing yourself this holiday season, sister. Remain at peace, and be blessed in all things.
Your brother, Hidden

The Beauty Of Christmas!

People have to experience judgement and discipline because of the curse of sin in the world. But I don't believe this ever was God's will. We shouldn't, but we do. I believe you can speak against things in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and curse sickness and death, and it can work because by His stripes we are healed. If God brings judgement, that would be different. But how often is it God bringing judgement like in Ananias and Sapphira rather then something of our own doing like overeating.
 

Eternally Grateful

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People have to experience judgement and discipline because of the curse of sin in the world. But I don't believe this ever was God's will. We shouldn't, but we do. I believe you can speak against things in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and curse sickness and death, and it can work because by His stripes we are healed. If God brings judgement, that would be different. But how often is it God bringing judgement like in Ananias and Sapphira rather then something of our own doing like overeating.
I wonder also, Joni Erickson tada was juried in a diving accident, is her lifetime of being a paraplegic gods punishment? Its not like she got drunk got behind the wheel and crashed breaking her neck, and that was the result of her infirmary because of her sin.
 

Mayflower

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I wonder also, Joni Erickson tada was juried in a diving accident, is her lifetime of being a paraplegic gods punishment? Its not like she got drunk got behind the wheel and crashed breaking her neck, and that was the result of her infirmary because of her sin.

I'm not sure who she is, but I do believe in miracles. Just because it doesn't happen in every situation, doesn't mean it isn't God's will for healing to happen.

With diving there are risks... Diving would be the cause of the paraplegia... Not God...
 
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