That wasn't the question.
Rhetorical, do not answer . . .
Will your faith endure joyfully when you are not healed of illness or other physical suffering?
Much love!
Should Christians Always Be Healed?
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Rhetorical, do not answer . . .
Will your faith endure joyfully when you are not healed of illness or other physical suffering?
Much love!
OK.
This is all the answer I needed to hear from you. I understand your position, I fully disagree with you, and I wish for you the very best!
Much love!
Well yes. I didn't actually cite some of the passages, but one would be right here:
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. 7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?” She said, “Yes, for so much.” 9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things. (Acts 5:1-11)
I am replying for those of like mind with me who understand the word properly, and the answer is of course. I already answered this in full, Mark.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Regarding God’s will…
Theologians usually differentiate between God’s θέλημα, His will of disposition or His wishes and desires, and his βουλή, His plan. Both are usually translated as God’s “will”. They’re not the same, or we would not be told to pray “Thy will be done” (θέλημα), because no plan of God’s can be thwarted anyway. So, His general desire may be that His children be healed, but that might not be the plan.
Not knowing God’s plan, I pray for a friend’s healing, humbly knowing that might not be part of the plan.
Theologians usually differentiate between God’s θέλημα, His will of disposition or His wishes and desires, and his βουλή, His plan. Both are usually translated as God’s “will”. They’re not the same, or we would not be told to pray “Thy will be done” (θέλημα), because no plan of God’s can be thwarted anyway. So, His general desire may be that His children be healed, but that might not be the plan.
Not knowing God’s plan, I pray for a friend’s healing, humbly knowing that might not be part of the plan.
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Ok, now let me address some positives. The entire 15th minute is good, especially what she says into the sixteenth minute that faith is a confidence, a knowing on the inside. But now, one needs to make a distinction here that many Faith teachers don't always make: It is not a "principle" you put in motion but the Spirit of God moving through you. By that, I mean Faith is not something you can muster up through confession until you finally talk yourself into it. I don't know if they teach that part of it, but it is an incorrect approach to how true faith operates. Faith is not something you muster up, it is something that is either present or it is not, based upon how much the Spirit abides within you, and that as a result of attending to prayer, worship, ministry and the word of God, for His words are Spirit and they are Life.
Disciples of Copeland especially will speak of applying "formulas" of how faith works, but the center of Christianity is not about operating in formulas but about being submitted the Lord Jesus Christ as His servant, and like Him, doing what the Father does and saying what the Father says, being led of the Spirit, not a rote set of rules and principles that will yield desired results.
I don't know if I explained that well enough or not, but this is a distinction that needs to be made between walking in true Biblical faith and just trying to use both God and scripture to attain His promises without needing to submit to Him personally and receive what His specific will is concerning matters on a moment to moment, day to day basis.
I'll say!! People tend to want what they want, and have many creative ways of making out that God wants what they want also.
Much love!
That's a good insight. I would need to look at specific passages the two words are used in to see what the distinction might be myself.
(Not inviting it, just saying it's an interesting observation).
Personally, I think there is a lot of confusion over How God expresses His will, and particularly in the child of God. Yes, His plan cannot be thwarted!
In quietness and trust is our strength. Quietness and trust.
Much love!
Life is more interesting and fun when you can infuse otherwise simple circumstances with these dramatic pregnancies of meanings. We can talk on and on about faith and sin and punishment and miracles and brother won't you just believe!
Who is able to ask God to be healed, and be grateful to Him in our hearts regardless of what happens because we DO actually trust Him, regardless of what we see?
Much love!
That's correct. And again, it comes back to the question of is it always God's desire to heal. Is this is a very simplified outlook that alleviates the need to try and discern God's specific will in every situation? Yes. But it comes at the cost of assuming something that isn't actually true.
Now I've heard people like Copeland argue that if it was God's will that Job go through everything he had to go through, then "God is a monster, and I would have nothing to do with a God like that." But what he fails to see is that God calls us to be like Christ both in his sufferings and His glorification. When scripture says He is the "Author and Perfecter of our faith," it means He perfectly fulfilled the steps we ourselves should seek to emulate: Being born from above after water baptism, receiving the Spirit, going forth in ministry, preaching the word, manifesting His power, being hated and reviled, being persecuted, potentially being killed but always suffering one way or another (for "all who are Christ's shall suffer persecution"), and then after suffering being raised from the dead and rewarded with positions of power in the coming kingdom of God. These things don't come to those who will deny Him and avoid sufferings and opposition from the Devil in this life. It is what Paul was referring to when he said, "Our light affliction builds for us an increasing weight of glory," and men like Copeland do not embrace this. They think Christ did all the suffering for us and we don't have to do any.
Some even teach that Christ was in a state of faithlessness when He suffered in Hades after death. It's a lie, of course, because Jesus didn't suffer at all after death. He went to the Paradise side of Hades and preached to the Old Testament saints that He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There was no suffering involved at that point.
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This to me is the heart of the matter.
We get pulled off center into results and performance - will this happen, should that happen, what is going to happen - when the reality is that these things are such a distant second place to the real life - To know God.
I don't need to see the results of my prayers, my desires to be healed, to know that God is here, that He loves me, that He is caring right now for my every need.
My trust is not that God will heal me. My trust is that God loves me. Not that He will fill up my bank account. But that He loves me. He can do all these things. All this and more, and so what? What's important to me is not that He do this or do that, but that He loves me. What He does will be love for me. I can get any of this wrong, I can get my whole life wrong, and still He loves me.
To me, it's hubris to think I'm always going to be right about what I believe God's will is. Those who would say, I keep picking on my sister, that my sister wasn't healed because of some sin, or some lack of faith, What a sad and miserable substitute for a real faith! Appalling and repugnant, and without understanding.
Unless we are going to hold to some idea we are always right, we need to make sure we are counting on our Father to do what is good, not on our Father doing this or that particular thing, as that relates to our requests and desires.
Much love!
Lambano
Well-Known Member
:) (Can I get an "Amen!" from the congregation?)
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
this is the kind of attitude I think we all need to take. It is one I believe Paul came to when he said he considered all he had suffered as a momentary light affliction.
Eternity is forever. what is a few years of suffering here on earth compared to an eternity of "no sickness and death"
It's as if people assume that all infirmity were bad or something! God uses great suffering for great effect in the renewing of our minds, that we can think rightly about Him.
Much love!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
@Mayflower.
Now, let me qualify this with a little additional explanation, seeing as how a question might come up in your mind if you are sitting under a lot of Faith teaching:
There is such a thing as strengthening one's faith by quoting scriptures, like on healing for instance. The trouble here is that's a bit like marching to the front lines without any armor on, and without having prepared yourself beforehand for battle. The faith-filled man is one who is ready for the enemy at all times, and not caught off guard by anything. Waiting until the enemy is bearing down on you with a sword in his hand is a bad time to start getting it together in faith. The real soldier of faith is ready in advance of anything; illness, job loss, marriage trouble, financial hardships, crashing economies, political upheavals, you name it, it doesn't matter. The true man of faith has already determined a long time ago that nothing is going to stand in his way or even distract him from fulfilling his call. He is already walking with the Lord so closely that this never comes into question, no matter what happens to be going on around him at the time.
When I've studied about afflictions, and the issues of life in 2 Corinthians 4,
2 Corinthians 4:10-12 KJV
10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12) So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
2 Corinthians 4:16-18 KJV
16) For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
. . . these include physical infirmities.
Do we have sufficient faith to trust God as "death works in us", as "our outward man perish"? Or do we demand our right?
Much love!
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Since some of the people dear to me have suffered various kinds of abuse (and many on this board also), I have to say with gentleness and sadness that you don't just "get over it". But time and love are good healers.
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