Should Christians Always Be Healed?

[Eternally Grateful]

A greater faith, to me, is one that trusts God implicitly regardless of what you do or do not see. Unless you believe that the only reason we have any infirmity or weakness or poverty or any of that is our lack of faith.

Can you have the faith Paul expressed, therefore will I boast in my infirmity, it NOT being removed? And without the personal voice of Jesus telling you why? Only that this thing you seek gone remains? Isn't it the greater faith that doesn't rely on a visible payoff?

Unless you mean that by the greatness of our faith we are healed and made whole and made rich, every time. Because if not, you need to address the fact that it won't always happen. And what faith do we have then?

We are instructed to walk by faith and not by sight, and that by doing so overcomes all. So then we are being trained in that pursuit, and one of those ways is that God allows us to remain in situations which require us to trust Him, because they render us infirm, weak, dependant, and without answers, other than to trust Him.

Much love!

Amen as the author of Hebrews states, Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. (heb 11: 1)

and as Jesus himself told Thomas in John 20: 29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Hidden In Him]

1- I don't know of any Bible verse supporting this. If you do, can you please tell us which one?
2- Paul says "A thorn in the flesh", that does look like something physical.

He's referring to 2 Corinthians 12:7, which uses the words αγγελος σαταν (literally "angel of Satan.")

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, this would involves getting fully into 2 Corinthians 12. Big discussion. I wish I could at least give you a short answer, but even that would leave you with a LOT more questions over what I meant by it.

I think it is deeper than this bro. As @Josho posted above, There are people who have not been healed. and yet have gone on to do many wonderful works for God. As I mentioned to him, Joni Erickson Tada is a great example of also of a person who was not healed in spite of many prayers. yet she has a lifetime of work giving Glory to God and being a spokesman for him and his power.

In Joni's case, she struggled for years trying to figure out Gods purpose in not healing her. If she was bound to this health and wealth doctrine that she did not have enough faith. She would have been lost as a vessel of God to be used.

I am all for faith, I am all for healing

I think saying if someone is not healed they do not have enough faith, or that everyone will be healed is dangerous, and has led many away from God.

just my personal opinion bro. not trying to attack anyone

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sigh. Sometimes it’s not somebody’s fault. John 9:1-3:

1 ¶ As Jesus passed by, He saw a man who had been blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Amen,

It was not satan's fault this man was blind for decades (How old was he?)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This wasn't an illness.

do you know this for sure?

in the greek an infirmity can be a sickness, a disease, many things. We know of pauls eyesite. Most believe it was this, This most certainly would something that God could heal.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You’ve made the common mistake of equating death with being sick, which is not so. Moses for example was 120 years old, and his eye was not dim nor his natural force of abated when he died. He did not die from sickness.

God gives everyone an allotted number of years, and when that time is up their heart just stops beating and they die peacefully in her sleep one night and they pass on, this happens all the time to Christians, and that death has nothing to do with sickness.

even people who die of natural causes die because of a weakness of something.

If God healed every person. he would heal that weakness.. and again, no one would die

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think it is deeper than this bro. As @Josho posted above, There are people who have not been healed. and yet have gone on to do many wonderful works for God. As I mentioned to him, Joni Erickson Tada is a great example of also of a person who was not healed in spite of many prayers. yet she has a lifetime of work giving Glory to God and being a spokesman for him and his power.

Yes, I'm aware of it, and you are correct. But now, I'm trying to give everyone in this thread both sides of the story. I have been on both sides of the isle here, so I know the arguments and counter-arguments quite well. There is a verse where Paul taught, "If you can have your freedom, rather use it," meaning that while they were to be comfortable with their position in life if they were slaves to another man, and serve them as unto God, if they had the chance to be free they should take it, because they would be in a better position to do more for God, having more options and freedom. The faith people would say the same thing about someone like her. Better to be healed if God gave you the option.

I think saying if someone is not healed they do not have enough faith, or that everyone will be healed is dangerous, and has led many away from God.

just my personal opinion bro. not trying to attack anyone

I understand, and the whole discussion creates this kind of an argument, which is why I had to post a warning in the OP not to be disrespectful. Things get downright heated on this one, though it has been awhile since I've seen it discussed. But it boils down to an interpretation of the texts, which is also why I wanted scriptures to be posted and then analyzed strictly. Do they teach that healing as our right in Christ so long as we are not in sin? And if they do, what determines if we are healed? Does our own faith play a significant role? And if it does, does that mean that a lack of faith could as well?

It's not a comfortable subject for many to discuss, especially if sick loved ones are involved, but I still think we are in a more comfortable place today than during NT times, because back then people were actually dying for their sins at the hands of God because His Presence back then was stronger and He held them more accountable as a result.

We're not in a "better" place today, mind you, but we are in a more comfortable one.

 

[Hidden In Him]

do you know this for sure?

in the greek an infirmity can be a sickness, a disease, many things. We know of pauls eyesite. Most believe it was this, This most certainly would something that God could heal.

Yes, I know they do. But they are never able to define it specifically because there is no record of or mention of it in church history, and that is likely because it was not what Paul was actually talking about. But it would take going into the entire teaching in 2 Corinthians 12, which would need its own thread. Not up to it right now.

 

[Lambano]

This depends on if you believe the supernatural gifts are for today, Lambano. But let me show you a passage were such gifts would have had to have been in operation.

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14-15)

Now, what this text insinuates is that the elders would know when it was God's will to heal the sick. Otherwise they would not be able to pray the prayer of faith, at least not in good conscience anyway. To do so would be against God's will. So there must certainly be gifts of discernment involved, unless you take the WoF position that some do, which is that God ALWAYS desires to heal. But as I've shown elsewhere there are scriptures that do not support this idea.

Okay, fair enough. If such gifts are still working today (and I certainly hope they are), I would want some quality-control checks on those claiming to be exercising them. I've run into too many people who think they know God's plans.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I would want some quality-control checks on those claiming to be exercising them.

Wouldn't we all, Lol.

 

[Mayflower]

Situations and circumstances that do not line up with the Word of God do not change the will of God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Situations and circumstances that do not line up with the Word of God do not change the will of God.

Reminds me that I still need to read your link, so maybe later today. (Sorry )

 

[Lambano]

Wouldn't we all, Lol.

Okay, that got a smile out of me.;) But the quality-control issue is one of the reasons why my Reformed brethren, who are traditionally suspicious of human power being exercised within the Church (and with good reason, given our sad history), are almost openly hostile to my Charismatic brothers and sisters. There's a reason falsely claiming to speak for God is punishable by stoning in the OT.

 

[Mayflower]

Reminds me that I still need to read your link, so maybe later today. (Sorry )

I'd watch this first if you are looking for Word of Faith views. Sorry, pastor can yell at us sometimes. Hehe.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, I'm aware of it, and you are correct. But now, I'm trying to give everyone in this thread both sides of the story. I have been on both sides of the isle here, so I know the arguments and counter-arguments quite well. There is a verse where Paul taught, "If you can have your freedom, rather use it," meaning that while they were to be comfortable with their position in life if they were slaves to another man, and serve them as unto God, if they had the chance to be free they should take it, because they would be in a better position to do more for God, having more options and freedom. The faith people would say the same thing about someone like her. Better to be healed if God gave you the option.

if this is all they said I would agree with them 100 % it would be better for her.

However. to say it would be better for God? That would be presumptuous, Because God may have a plan, that could not be carried out if he healed her.

Also. When I was in a faith church. they would tell Joni she is not healed because she does not have enough faith. Its her fault. not Gods.

This is what I am discussing here.

There is no good side to that argument in that situation and the thousands situations just like that.

Joni was not comfortable. If you read her testimony, you see nothing like that. So using pauls words that she was confortable and should keep trying to be healed. well that does not apply.

I understand, and the whole discussion creates this kind of an argument, which is why I had to post a warning in the OP not to be disrespectful. Things get downright heated on this one, though it has been awhile since I've seen it discussed. But it boils down to an interpretation of the texts, which is also why I wanted scriptures to be posted and then analyzed strictly. Do they teach that healing as our right in Christ so long as we are not in sin? And if they do, what determines if we are healed? Does our own faith play a significant role? And if it does, does that mean that a lack of faith could as well?

It's not a comfortable subject for many to discuss, especially if sick loved ones are involved, but I still think we are in a more comfortable place today than during NT times, because back then people were actually dying for their sins at the hands of God because His Presence back then was stronger and He held them more accountable as a result.

We're not in a "better" place today, mind you, but we are in a more comfortable one.

I would disagree. the division in the country, and even the church on those of differing views I think is stronger and more severe than any in many lifetimes, at least my own.

so I disagree we are more comfortable, as sad as it is

 

[Hidden In Him]

Also. When I was in a faith church. they would tell Joni she is not healed because she does not have enough faith. Its her fault. not Gods.

This is what I am discussing here.

Yes, I agree. See, it never sets well with me when superficial Christians assume things, and the WoF has superficial believers in it just like every other Christian denomination and movement does. The vast majority who will parrot that type of teaching are not going on a word of knowledge or discernment or any other spiritual gift, they are going on assumptions created out of the theology they are being fed. That's the part I have a big problem with. The Faith movement speaks far too much of "formulas" (especially people like Copeland), as if it is a mechanical system that can be worked to a person's advantage. In reality, all is dependent upon the Spirit of God and His leading, not mechanical formulas and blanket assumptions.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Situations and circumstances that do not line up with the Word of God do not change the will of God.

Ok, now we're friends, and you would be one I truly don't want to lose, and I know how divisive this topic can be. I've been around a long time, and I've also been where your pastor currently is.

Do you want me to critique this teaching, or no? Or would it maybe be better if I just viewed it to get a better understanding of what he believes and teaches, and leave it at that? I don't want to come off like I am deliberately trying to shoot down a man of God you respect and receive ministry from.

 

[Mayflower]

Ok, now we're friends, and you would be one I truly don't want to lose, and I know how divisive this topic can be. I've been around a long time, and I've also been where your pastor currently is.

Do you want me to critique this teaching, or no? Or would it maybe be better if I just viewed it to get a better understanding of what he believes and teaches, and leave it at that? I don't want to come off like I am deliberately trying to shoot down a man of God you respect and receive ministry from.

As long as you focus on beliefs rather then the person, I think you are fine. This is the reason for Bible study to learn and discuss.

 

[Hidden In Him]

As long as you focus on beliefs rather then the person, I think you are fine. This is the reason for Bible study to learn and discuss.

Well that's a good answer. :)

Now I also can recognize certain familiar patterns of ministry that kinda give away where his influences are probably coming from, but I'll leave that alone and just focus on what he is preaching, and I'll try and comment on what I view as both the bad and the good; the right and the wrong.

I'm currently at 10:00, and he is saying the very thing I was telling Marks and Eternally Grateful is one of the big problems Faith people have with non-WoF believers: This notion that you just need to let God be God, and "He's gonna do whatever He wants to do," so we can't force the hand of God and yaddayaddayadda. I'm guessing we will likely agree on the rest of what he says about that.

But before progressing, his opening statement that "It is always God's will to heal" is where I discovered there is a problem. I posted it earlier in this thread, in Post #26. This is actually only one of at least a half dozen passages I can quote for you that pose a problem to this position, but let me start with this one:

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.(1 Corinthians 11:27-32)

Now what Paul was teaching here in this section of 1st Corinthians was this: They were letting a spirit of division conquer them, so badly in fact that they weren't even taking communion together any more. Some were coming earlier, gobbling up the food, and leaving nothing for poorer believers who came later. And their divisions were essentially destroying the spiritual temple of God, which is why Paul warned them in Chapter 5, saying, "If you destroy the temple of God, God will destroy you." This is also what he is referring to in verses 30-32 above. Because they were bringing the church of God there to destruction through their division, the Lord Himself was bringing sickness and even death upon some of them, just as he brought death to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts, and Jezebel and her family in Revelations 2. By taking communion amongst the saints of God, they were publicly declaring that they were members of His body, yet by their actions their were destroying that body, thus making themselves "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord."

Now, the question becomes this: If it is always God's will to heal, what was He doing here? If you take the position that it is always His desire to heal and never to bring judgment through sickness and death, for starters there are several passages that contradict this argument, but the key question is, how can He ever discipline His people? The typical argument among Faith people here is that God disciplines through His word, and that He doesn't need to discipline through punishments. But this runs entirely contrary to not only New Testament texts but a whole slew of Old Testament texts as well. The entire Babylonian captivity episode was one of dozens of instances where God specifically punished the people of Israel, and only one of the ways He could choose to do it. And as your pastor later quotes, Deuteronomy 28 included curses upon those who did not obey the commands of God. His judgments were His means of carrying these things out, and they were most certainly HIM carrying them out, not Satan.

I can prove this to you if you want to look at several passages, but that is a short summary of the central problem with the argument that it is always God's desire to heal. Sometimes it is His will to bring judgment, and even death upon those who are bringing potential spiritual death to His people.

 

[Waiting on him]

the Lord Himself was bringing sickness and even death upon some of them,

You sure about this?