Should Christians Always Be Healed?

[Waiting on him]

I find it neat how Job was the first ever book written in the Bible as far as age wise.

And I do believe fear opened that door with Job. He said what he feared most came upon him and it did (Job 3:25). It didn't mean he wasn't righteous.

What came upon him was God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

That’s a harsh trip to have laid on you.

Yes. I have an uncle whom some minister said something similar to. Didn't set well with him either. Something to the effect of "This happened because you are in sin." Unless that minister received a divine word of knowledge to this effect, he was sinning greatly. My uncle has never forgotten it, though he still tries to live for God.

 

[Waiting on him]

Yes. I have an uncle whom some minister said something similar to. Didn't set well with him either. Something to the effect of "This happened because you are in sin." Unless that minister received a divine word of knowledge to this effect, he was sinning greatly. My uncle has never forgotten it, though he still tries to live for God.

Pick up a little something extre for her while your there.


For her efforts!

Right now I'm being told I need to drive to the store and buy some more sour cream because someone just messed up her cake.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Pick up a little something extre for her while your there.

For her efforts!

This would make her an instant fan of yours if she read it. Every trip I make to the store, it's always, "Get me something good," and of course "something good" is completely nebulous, so you have to try and figure out what "something good" actually is.

With women, it's not the gift that counts, it's how much agony you put into it trying to get creative. If you let it, it can take years off your life.

 

[Mayflower]

Mmm.. iffy, Lol. This is the Faith position, and the Faith position generally implies that Job's tragedies were his own doing, which is kinda paramount to saying it was his own fault. And if it was his fault they died, he wasn't exactly the paragon of virtue many have made him out to be, LoL. But maybe we can get more into that later.

Right now I'm being told I need to drive to the store and buy some more sour cream because someone just messed up her cake.

Well yeh I would say also it wasn't Job's fault it happened. But he did say he was afraid and fear does open doors to things. This test proves that fear for one wasn't of doubt. He never doubted God once the entire book of Job.

I think fear can make one sick though.

 

[Lambano]

Yes. I have an uncle whom some minister said something similar to. Didn't set well with him either. Something to the effect of "This happened because you are in sin." Unless that minister received a divine word of knowledge to this effect, he was sinning greatly. My uncle has never forgotten it, though he still tries to live for God.

I don’t think I can resolve this paradox: How to ask in real faith while acknowledging God’s sovereign right to say “no”.

(But I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk about it.)

 

[Hidden In Him]

I don’t think I can resolve this paradox: How to ask in real faith while acknowledging God’s sovereign right to say “no”.

Again, I think it boils down to knowing what is going on with the individual in question, and knowing God's will concerning them. If you know His will for that individual is "No," you know not to ask Him for it in faith, because this would be contrary to His will.

 

[Lambano]

Again, I think it boils down to knowing what is going on with the individual in question, and knowing God's will concerning them. If you know His will for that individual is "No," you know not to ask Him for it in faith, because this would be contrary to His will.

Rather presumptuous of me to think I know God’s will for some other person, don’t you think?

 

[Nancy]

The Apostle Paul as far as we know continued to have a thorn of the flesh until his death. I do not think Paul lacked faith.

He did. He also told Timothy to "take a little wine for his frequent stomach ailments".

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"Flesh" means body in that context. It is the body which has physical ailments

All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one [flesh] of men, and another of beasts, of birds and another of fish.

there is also heavenly and earthly bodies,

but the glory of the heavenly is one (2 Timothy 4:18)

and the [glory] of the earthly is another. (Philippians 3:19)

(Philippians 3:20-21)

But "a thorn in the flesh" means "a constant irritation in the body".

“a constant irritation” in what body? When “Your glorying is not good. Know you not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 1 Corinthians 5:6 …what lump?

 

[Enoch111]

All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one [flesh] of men, and another of beasts,

Our focus right now is on the flesh of men -- the human body. When you get a serious thorn in your flesh, it is very unpleasant. But "thorn" is used a a metaphor by Paul for something physically painful and irritating.

 

[Vid]

The “Word of faith” movement is based on Mark 11:22–24 which seems to suggest that anyone who has faith should have anything they want (health, wealth, a loving spouse, etc.). This in turns suggests that anyone who is sick, poor or not happily married is not a good Christian.

By this very definition, Paul wouldn't be a good Christian since he himself said he had “a thorn in his flesh” and that he was “tormented” by a “messenger of Satan” that Jesus refused to take away (2 Corinthians 12:7-9).

Moreover, Jesus tested Peter's faith and Peter failed to walk on water which led Jesus to reproach him with not having enough faith (Matthew 14:31).

If both Paul and Peter are not faithful enough to fulfill Mark 11:22–24, who is? Can anyone in the Word of faith movement walk on water?

I would say the mistake here is to believe anyone with true faith can achieve anything they want even if God doesn't want it. Truth is Mark 11:23 can only be achieved if God wishes for a mountain to go throw itself in the sea. This is the only way one can have no doubt in their heart that it will. It is therefore very arrogant to say that faith can make a true believer healthy (or wealthy or happily married) for it only can if God so wishes.

 

[Curtis]

One way I look at it. If all christians are healed. They would never die. And would never suffer

Even in scripture we do nt see this to be the case.

I do believe God heals. I have witnessed it. But it is not guaranteed.

You’ve made the common mistake of equating death with being sick, which is not so. Moses for example was 120 years old, and his eye was not dim nor his natural force of abated when he died. He did not die from sickness.

God gives everyone an allotted number of years, and when that time is up their heart just stops beating and they die peacefully in her sleep one night and they pass on, this happens all the time to Christians, and that death has nothing to do with sickness.

 

[Curtis]

The “Word of faith” movement is based on Mark 11:22–24 which seems to suggest that anyone who has faith should have anything they want (health, wealth, a loving spouse, etc.). This in turns suggests that anyone who is sick, poor or not happily married is not a good Christian.

By this very definition, Paul wouldn't be a good Christian since he himself said he had “a thorn in his flesh” and that he was “tormented” by a “messenger of Satan” that Jesus refused to take away (2 Corinthians 12:7-9).

Moreover, Jesus tested Peter's faith and Peter failed to walk on water which led Jesus to reproach him with not having enough faith (Matthew 14:31).

If both Paul and Peter are not faithful enough to fulfill Mark 11:22–24, who is? Can anyone in the Word of faith movement walk on water?

I would say the mistake here is to believe anyone with true faith can achieve anything they want even if God doesn't want it. Truth is Mark 11:23 can only be achieved if God wishes for a mountain to go throw itself in the sea. This is the only way one can have no doubt in their heart that it will. It is therefore very arrogant to say that faith can make a true believer healthy (or wealthy or happily married) for it only can if God so wishes.

Paul’s thorn in the flesh was not physical sickness. And the thorn was also special circumstances that does not apply to 99.99% of Christians, since it was given to him lest he be exalted above measure, because of all the wonders and secrets he had seen in heaven. In other words Paul apparently had a problem with tending towards a big ego, so God gave him a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble because of the revelations he had seen.

So Unless you’re also taken to heaven and shown great revelation and secrets, getting a thorn in the flesh isn’t something that will ever apply to you.

It was not physical sickness because it was a thorn, and sickness is never called a thorn anywhere in Scripture, but people or beings can be a thorn in someone’s side - and it was also a Messenger from Satan - angels in the Bible are called messengers, thus a Messenger from Satan would be a fallen angel, which is arguably a demon,

Paul was being oppressed by a fallen angel/demon, not by physical sickness.

 

[Vid]

Paul was being oppressed by a fallen angel/demon, not by physical sickness.

1- I don't know of any Bible verse supporting this. If you do, can you please tell us which one?
2- Paul says "A thorn in the flesh", that does look like something physical.
3- Even if your statement was true, it wouldn't change my point since even Peter lacked faith in Jesus' eyes
4- I agree with you, Paul had a big ego. Now I know Christians who also do and who aren't sick

 

[Lambano]

That's an excellent question! What is the intended fruit?

Much love!

I don't know, but I'm grateful for the opportunity to put into words my own spiritual insecurities, doubts, frustrations, and sadness.

I don't know why an old man dying of Covid 19 was healed, while a young lady with Cystic Fibrosis I used to drive to Sunday School died way too young, leaving behind a daughter who meant the world to her. But I'm grateful to God for bringing both into my life.

I passed understanding, a long, long time ago
In the simple home of systems, and answers we all know
What I thought I wanted
What I got instead
Leaves me broken, yet ... grateful

-Sara Groves, What I thought I wanted

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Our focus right now is on the flesh of men -- the human body. When you get a serious thorn in your flesh, it is very unpleasant. But "thorn" is used a a metaphor by Paul for something physically painful and irritating.

“Here for this third time I am ready to come to you, and I will not be a burden to you,
For I do not seek what is yours, but you;
For the children are not responsible to save up for [their] parents
But parents for [their] children.”

Can any relate to a fathers love towards his children? It is not the children who put up for the father but the father for the children. What then if those children call you “a deceiver” after gains; “deceitful”? Was Paul saying I entrapped you with deceit?

“I will gladly spend and be expended for your souls. if I love you more, am I to be loved less? but be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; …never the less, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit. (To foster you for Christ and the adoption of sons sake)

“Certainly I have not taken advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you…have I”
(Imo, he is asking why such accusations?
In saying “I urged Titus [to go], and I sent the brother with him. Titus did not take advantage of you…did he? Did we not conduct ourselves in the same spirit [and walk] in the same steps?” (The same steps as Christ who was rejected for your sakes?)

“For I could wish that I myself [separated] from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen, according to the flesh for who are Israelites to whom belong the adoption as sons. “To foster”, adoption.


Then there is: though you have countless teachers…there are not many fathers.
All the above sounds like an irritating thorn, especially as far as fellowship is concerned. Even if you suffer illness…is it not more painful to be rejected when you need comfort the most?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Rather presumptuous of me to think I know God’s will for some other person, don’t you think?

This depends on if you believe the supernatural gifts are for today, Lambano. But let me show you a passage were such gifts would have had to have been in operation.

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14-15)

Now, what this text insinuates is that the elders would know when it was God's will to heal the sick. Otherwise they would not be able to pray the prayer of faith, at least not in good conscience anyway. To do so would be against God's will. So there must certainly be gifts of discernment involved, unless you take the WoF position that some do, which is that God ALWAYS desires to heal. But as I've shown elsewhere there are scriptures that do not support this idea.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The “Word of faith” movement is based on Mark 11:22–24 which seems to suggest that anyone who has faith should have anything they want (health, wealth, a loving spouse, etc.). This in turns suggests that anyone who is sick, poor or not happily married is not a good Christian.

Yes, there are multiple problems with the traditional WoF position. It's too oversimplified in many ways.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Interesting topic, while faith plays a big role in someone being healed by God, it all depends on what the will of God is, "Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

We could look at Nick Vujicic though, the man with no arms and no legs, still has no arms and no legs, but God has used him to inspire, encourage many people and spread the Gospel in a massive way, and his faith has probably been strengthened massively throughout his life because of having no arms and no legs.

So sometimes while some may not get healed here on earth, God can really turn that disadvantage into a good thing.

But everyone who is a genuine Christian, will be made perfect when they get to Heaven, there will be no more pain or suffering, and the things of old will have passed.

Revelations 21:4
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”

we can't leave out many a christian just like this who have done wondrous works for Christ. Another one I think of is Joni Erickson Tada!! A quad who was injured in a diving accident. Who is a great speaker and has won many a people to christ.