That is a different figure Renniks. It's different from the Potter and the clay. Confusing different figures brings about a confused understanding.
Not a single statement in your post refutes the argument in my post.
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R0550
Saved Or Predestined ???
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Not a single statement in your post refutes the argument in my post.
Tong
R0550
The verses such as that which says that whoever believes will be saved does not make believing or faith as that causes their salvation so that you say that faith comes before salvation and that faith causes salvation. For as I have pointed out, unless you believe otherwise, that it is God who saves and therefore the cause of salvation. Scriptures tells us that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). So verses such as that which says that whoever believes will be saved expresses the truth that God saves through faith. For who are they who believes or are given faith, but them who are born of God, them who are given by the Father to the Son to save?
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R0551
Nor sir. I read from verse 1 to verse 13. I even never tried reading backwards sir. It would be foolish to do that. On the other hand you read into the verse what it does not say, such as that that those who receive him are then born of God.
You see, the "spiritually dead" could not "spiritually respond (positively)" to God unless they first be born, born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Only then one could "spiritually respond (positively)", that is, believe in God.
Tong
R0552
Christian: What it says is that faith is credited to Abraham as righteousness. As I said, I am sorry to disappoint you yet again, but that does not say that they are born of God after belief.
Tong
R0553
Why would I believe what you say instead of what scripture says? Let's just choose one of the people you mentioned.
"19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
Are God's promises to Abraham unconditional promises? Doesn't sound that way.
Yes Abraham was chosen to be a beginning of a nation. Why do you read this as Abraham chosen over others for salvation? Scripture tells us Abraham was saved through faith, not because of being chosen to carry the line of the Messiah.
Again, another person elected for a purpose because of God's foreknowledge. This has nothing to do with someone being irresistibly chosen for salvation.
"19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
Are God's promises to Abraham unconditional promises? Doesn't sound that way.
Yes Abraham was chosen to be a beginning of a nation. Why do you read this as Abraham chosen over others for salvation? Scripture tells us Abraham was saved through faith, not because of being chosen to carry the line of the Messiah.
Again, another person elected for a purpose because of God's foreknowledge. This has nothing to do with someone being irresistibly chosen for salvation.
It's a lot more than that. He's setting up his whole argument by starting with Israel. Again if you don't get this, you will misunderstand the rest of the chapter. It's about Israel and the gentiles, not individual salvation. Until he gets to the point that salvation comes through faith, not works.
No it's the same thing, by the same writer. You just don't want to see what is plainly shown here, because it doesn't work in your theology.
Wow, this is some convoluted reasoning!
Yes it's by grace through faith and without faith salvation doesn't happen. It's by faith from first to last. You have not shown what you claim.
Faith is everywhere ascribed to man, not to God (Matt 9:2, 22, 28-29; 10:52; Luke 7:50; 8:50; 17:19; 18:42)
How can demons restrict faith, for example, if faith is but a gift irresistibly given to us?
Luke 8:12
For I have chosen him, so that ....
God did not say:
For I have chosen him, because ....
Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Does that sound conditional to you?
In the scriptures you quoted, it does mean to say that God, after saying what He said to Abram in Gen. 12:1-3, that later on, He suddenly put a condition to His otherwise unconditional promises. Again a misuse of scriptures. That is because you fail to realize that Abraham is without children when God said things He said in Gen. 18:19. So that, what God said there in Gen. 18:19 is about the reason why God will certainly bring about His promise to Abraham, that is, the promise of a son by Sarah, in accordance with the context. As it is also in this way that God will bring about His promise in making Abraham into a great nation.
Read Gen. 12:1-4 and look if you do not see the salvation of Abraham there.
God had given Abram faith, when God had spoken to him in Gen. 12:1-3. Had God not spoken to Abram, Abram would not had faith. Remember, faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Yes, Abraham was chosen for a purpose. But that does NOT necessarily mean He was not chosen for salvation.
You say that he was chosen because of God's foreknowledge. And that does not mean, God's election was only according to His foreknowledge. For all of God's doing are according to the whole of who He is, that is, His Divine nature.
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Of course there's a lot more that Paul says in the rest of Romans 9, but said only what He said in verses 1-5. It's foolish to insist that Paul said what he said in verses 6-33 in verses 1-5.
Tong
R0555
Perhaps same writer but not the same figure. You really have that problem when it comes to figures used in scriptures.
Tong
R0556
12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
I don't see anything about God giving Abraham faith. I see promises for Abraham that are obviously conditional on Abraham doing as God asked. If Abraham had refused to go, what would have happened? He had to trust God in order to agree to leave his homeland and follow Him!
Again, we are told elsewhere the Abraham was justified by faith, so your speculation about him being chosen for salvation, as if God is making him an offer he can't refuse just are not backed up by scripture.
Oh, good grief. Now you are just making stuff up. I never said any such thing. I guess you can't know what your refuse to see.
@Renniks I do struggle with the idea of corporate election. Ephesians 1 seems to include what every individual believer comes into the good of.
I'm not sure what you mean. Corporate election doesn't deny that each individual believer has certain benefits. What is stated is that we receive those blessings "in him". (Notice what it doesn't say. It doesn't say he chose us to be in him.) How is one included "in him?"
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.
When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
This passage is not about God predetermining which individuals will be in Christ. It is about God predetermining what will become of those who are in Christ through belief in His truth.
John 6 and 1 John 4 make it clear that God took the initiative in the first place.
@farouk, Let me share this verse to you in connection to your post which I think might be of help to you.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Within the corporately elected people of the nation of Israel, more commonly referred in the NT scriptures as the Jews, there are those elected individually by God, who together are called the elect. Paul in Romans 11, concerning Israel, refer to them as the remnant according to the election of grace.
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R0557
So far, in my reading of scriptures, the Israel of the OT is but a shadow of the real and true Israel of God, that is, the true children of God. Paul speaks about this concerning the true identity of the Israel of God in Romans 9:6-8.
Please consider reading my post in these links:
The "Israel of God": Who are they? (post #1)
The "Israel of God": Who are they? (post #7)
The "Israel of God": Who are they? (post #39)
The "Israel of God": Who are they? (post #64)
Tong
R0558
You don't see anything about God giving Abram faith perhaps because you don't understand how faith comes to a person. Why you see and say that the promises of God to Abram as written out in the passage to be obviously conditional, even while what is obvious is the opposite, is beyond me.
You asked "If Abraham had refused to go, what would have happened?" But he did not refuse, right? But to satisfy your hypothetical question, I'd say that God would work out a way to convict, convince, and convert Abram, towards having faith, and unto obedience.
You said "He had to trust God in order to agree to leave his homeland and follow Him!" Of course. Now, we learn from scriptures that Abram, at the time that God had spoken to him, belongs to a family of idolaters, who worshiped false gods. And then consider what is told to him by God, "Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you". That was not in any way, shape, or form easy to do, is it? More so for one who belong to a family who worship not the true God but false gods. So, needless to say, it cannot be dismissed that God could have had worked His way into Abram, into his mind and heart, that Abram was convicted, convinced and converted by God so that he, without question or hesitation, believed and obeyed. How he was moved to obedience is evidence of his having been given faith by God despite being a believer of false gods, as that is the only way that one like him could obey a seemingly impossible commandment such as that given to Abram by even an invisible God who is Spirit and whom be does not know and worship.
You said "Again, we are told elsewhere the Abraham was justified by faith, so your speculation about him being chosen for salvation, as if God is making him an offer he can't refuse just are not backed up by scripture." Yes, I agree that Abraham was justified by faith, for there is even this truth that Paul said in his letter to the Romans, that God will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Now, do not fail to remember, how faith through which God will justify a person, comes to one. Paul said "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." And if faith comes as such, then faith does not come from the person, but comes from God, and that, by having the person hear Him ~ His words. Before the cross, faith comes to people when God speak to them in various ways as can be read in the OT scriptures. After the cross, faith comes to people when God speak to them through the scriptures, and through the church, either as a body of believers or as individual believers who are sent to preach according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. It must also be understood that it is not only the words of God reaching the person, but that together with this, is the working of God in the hearts and minds of those being saved, that they will understand God 's words, unto conviction, be convinced and converted by God so that they, like Abraham, without question or hesitation, believe and obey the gospel preached.
When God had chosen Abram, God did not give him an offer he can't refuse. What we read in scriptures is just that as what is written in Genesis 12:1-3. God gave Abram commandment and promises. That's it. All other matters that comes after that is God's working out, with the end to make good, what He said to Abraham. Abraham, as also, then Isaac, Jacob (Israel), and Moses, do not in any way shape or form, have anything to do with the bringing about of what God had said to Abraham in Gen. 12:1-3. It is God who promised and it is God who will bring about His promises, and not any one else. So, no one gets to have credit nor said to have caused whatever promise of God that was fulfilled in any way shape or form.
Tong
R0559
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