Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Anyone would ask this question if they were sentenced to hell with no hope of salvation.

So you are an advocate and the mouth piece of those who are "not chosen" now? Even then, as I pointed out God is not indebted to any sinner in any way, shape, or form. If ever they are going to Hell, it's because of their sin and not because of God.

So, going back, have you not yet known who the children of promise are?

Tong
R0542

 

[Renniks]

You clearly don't know the difference between Jews and Gentiles.

"Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people!

This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children."

 

[Tong2020]

The clay isn't without choices.

When did clay ever had a choice? If you take the clay as having a choice then you are making the figure that scriptures used to tell us a truth regarding the Creator and the creature to be faulty, thus taking the figure more than what truth it was used to convey. In the figure of the Potter and the clay, the truth being illustrated is that the Creator (Potter) has power over the creature (clay). As Paul expounded on this, saying "Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

Tong
R0543

 

[Renniks]

I did. The Church is not Israel. Gentiles are not Israel.

Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Paul preached the gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews and was repeatedly rejected (Acts 13—28); in consequence, Paul brought the good news to the Gentiles, who in turn became Abraham’s spiritual seed by faith and heirs of the promises to Abraham and his seed (Galatians 3—4).

 

[Renniks]

So, clearly I did not claim what you say I claimed Renniks. There is nothing in what I said there where I claim that faith comes after salvation. So, it's either you lied or misrepresented what I said.

And here is what I said in my other post relative to that, and I quote "With regards salvation, faith does not come before salvation, as if to say that salvation comes about because of faith or faith causes one's salvation. Rather, as part of the salvation of God, faith is just one among that which God will give the man whom He saves on the onset of His salvation work."

Tong
R0537

If faith is a result of salvation, then how does it come before salvation?

 

[Renniks]

His own did not receive Him (v.11). His "own", who are they?

The Jewish people.

are those who received Him, those who believe in His name (v.12). Who are they?

Whosever will believe in him.

 

[Renniks]

Perhaps that is what you want and what you say, but not what the scriptures says Renniks. Cite other scriptures, if any, that says that they are born of God after belief, for the scriptures you quoted does not say that.

Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

 

[Renniks]

You fail to see and acknowledge that what God did, from Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob, to Moses, to Jesus, came about based on God's sovereign act of election and not on anything else.

That's not what scripture says, so why would I believe it?

Methinks you had some Calvinist influence and they never identified themselves as Calvinist. Happens a lot. It's a slanted, off kilter way to read God's Word.

 

[Renniks]

I was talking about what is in Romans 9:1-5. And here you are objecting to what I said in my post referring to the whole chapter, making it appear that I err? Such attitude. So tell us what else does the passage (v.1-5) say, more than what I said in my post sir?

Tong
R0541

If you don't understand that this is about Israel and the gentiles instead of about individual election, you will always misunderstand the entire chapter, and beyond. This is why Calvinist thinkers tend to totally skip the first five verses, and often the last few verses and only pull out the middle of the chapter, then make it about them. " You probably think this is about you, don't you, don't you?"

But it really isn't. Paul isn't talking to the reader when he says that" one of you will say to me.."
He's responding to someone rebelling against the idea that God is using thier sin to reach other people. And that someone surely isn't us. Why would a gentile be opposed to that?

 

[Tong2020]

If faith is a result of salvation, then how does it come before salvation?

Why are you asking me how it come before salvation? I never said it comes before salvation. This is what I said, and I repeat: "With regards salvation, faith does not come before salvation, as if to say that salvation comes about because of faith or faith causes one's salvation. Rather, as part of the salvation of God, faith is just one among that which God will give the man whom He saves on the onset of His salvation work."

Please read slowly and carefully.

Tong
R0544

 

[Tong2020]

The Jewish people.

You got that right.

Whosever will believe in him.

The question: There are those who received Him, those who believe in His name (v.12). Who are they?

Renniks: Whosever will believe in him.

That clearly is wrong as the question really is who are they who believe in His name. Consider the part of the question above highlighted.

The answer is given by John in verse 13. They are those who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Tong
R0545

 

[Tong2020]

Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

I am sorry to disappoint you yet again, but that does not say that they are born of God after belief. If you are reading that in the scriptures you quoted, then you are not reading what the scriptures is saying.

Tong
R0546

 

[Renniks]

So you are an advocate and the mouth piece of those who are "not chosen" now? Even then, as I pointed out God is not indebted to any sinner in any way, shape, or form. If ever they are going to Hell, it's because of their sin and not because of God.

So, going back, have you not yet known who the children of promise are?

Tong
R0542

I already told you who the children of the promise are. What's the point of repeating the obvious?
So, people who are unchosen are going to hell for their sin, even though they had no way to avoid sinning? How does that work, exactly? Is a rabbit to blame for having long ears? Is a pig to blame for liking to play in the mud? If one only does exactly what he's born to do, how can he be blamed and punished forever for doing it?
Yes, we are all born with the potential to sin. But we are also born in God's image and every one of us is capable of seeking for and finding salvation.

 

[Renniks]

When did clay ever had a choice? If you take the clay as having a choice then you are making the figure that scriptures used to tell us a truth regarding the Creator and the creature to be faulty, thus taking the figure more than what truth it was used to convey. In the figure of the Potter and the clay, the truth being illustrated is that the Creator (Potter) has power over the creature (clay). As Paul expounded on this, saying "Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

Tong
R0543

20A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use. 21So if anyone cleanses himself of what is unfit, he will be a vessel for honor: sanctified, useful to the Master, and prepared for every good work.…Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

If you can't see the connection between this and the vessels for honor and dishonor in Romans 9, you just are trying to avoid the obvious again.

 

[Renniks]

Why are you asking me how it come before salvation? I never said it comes before salvation. This is what I said, and I repeat: "With regards salvation, faith does not come before salvation, as if to say that salvation comes about because of faith or faith causes one's salvation. Rather, as part of the salvation of God, faith is just one among that which God will give the man whom He saves on the onset of His salvation work."

Please read slowly and carefully.

Tong
R0544

That's not what scripture says. Multiple verses that I quoted multiple times say that we must believe in order to be saved. Faith isn't irresistibly given to us, or we could not be commended for faith nor would we be admonished to increase in faith.

 

[Renniks]

You got that right.



The question: There are those who received Him, those who believe in His name (v.12). Who are they?

Renniks: Whosever will believe in him.

That clearly is wrong as the question really is who are they who believe in His name. Consider the part of the question above highlighted.

The answer is given by John in verse 13. They are those who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Tong
R0545

Lol, again you try to read the verse backward. Those who receive him are the ones who are then born of God, not the other way around.

 

[Renniks]

I am sorry to disappoint you yet again, but that does not say that they are born of God after belief. If you are reading that in the scriptures you quoted, then you are not reading what the scriptures is saying.

Tong
R0546

” 6Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness. 7
1. he believed in God.
2. and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Calvinist: "Let's just reverse this order every time we see it, as it doesn't fit our preconceived ideas."

 

[Tong2020]

That's not what scripture says, so why would I believe it?

Of course it is what scriptures says. God by the election of grace, had chosen Abram (Abraham) over the rest of his generation. Then God by election of grace had chosen Isaac over Ishmael, then Jacob (Israel) over Esau, then Moses over the rest if Israel, until Mary who gave birth to Jesus, the salvation of God. Clearly it is God who brought this about and made this happen by the election of grace.

If you refuse to believe that, that's up to you. Just sad that you don't get to believe such truth.

Tong
R0547

 

[Tong2020]

If you don't understand that this is about Israel and the gentiles instead of about individual election, you will always misunderstand the entire chapter, and beyond. This is why Calvinist thinkers tend to totally skip the first five verses, and often the last few verses and only pull out the middle of the chapter, then make it about them. " You probably think this is about you, don't you, don't you?"

But it really isn't. Paul isn't talking to the reader when he says that" one of you will say to me.."
He's responding to someone rebelling against the idea that God is using thier sin to reach other people. And that someone surely isn't us. Why would a gentile be opposed to that?

As I pointed out, in this part of the string of our exchanges, I was taking about Romans 9:1-5. I don't know why you objected to what I said about verses 1-5 which is and I quote "In verses 1-5, Paul expressed his wish concerning his brethren in the flesh, that is, the Israelites, the people of the nation of Israel. By such, he had us understand that Israel, as a whole, rejected Jesus as the Messiah. And he there tells us about them in connection to God and the Christ. Nothing more."

Tong
R0548

 

[Tong2020]

I already told you who the children of the promise are. What's the point of repeating the obvious?

Yes you have and I have shown you your error there.

So, people who are unchosen are going to hell for their sin, even though they had no way to avoid sinning? How does that work, exactly?

As I said, the sinner can't blame God, for the simple reason that God is not indebted to any one of them, in any way, shape, or form. What do you not understand by that? I'm beginning to suspect that you think otherwise.

The unchosen are going to hell for their sin, regardless of whether they had no way to avoid sinning or not. For the salvation of God is not by one's avoidance of sinning, but by God's grace.

Is a rabbit to blame for having long ears? Is a pig to blame for liking to play in the mud? If one only does exactly what he's born to do, how can he be blamed and punished forever for doing it?

On your 1st question, my answer is no. On your 2nd question, my answer is no. Should you not be asking me after asking me about the rabbit and the pig, if man is to be blamed for having a corrupted flesh? So, on the 3rd question, I'd say that it is not that man was born to commit sin, but that man is born with a corrupted flesh. And that is not because God created man with a corrupted flesh, but because Adam, the father of mankind, had corrupted it when he ate of the forbidden fruit.

Yes, we are all born with the potential to sin. But we are also born in God's image and every one of us is capable of seeking for and finding salvation.

That image was with Adam before the fall, and was lost when he sinned, for God's image is one of holiness, such as is Jesus.

Aren't you aware that majority of mankind are in false faith and worships false gods and seek salvation? Is that in any way, shape or form reflects the image of God? Would you say they are really capable of seeking and finding salvation? No sir.

Tong
R0549