As I pointed out, their being symbolic of two different nations is irrelevant to Paul's point that God's election is not based on what good or evil Jacob or Esau have done. You are evidently just out of context there.
Tong
R0534
Saved Or Predestined ???
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Tong
R0534
You can laugh that out but that will not make that so sir, sorry to say.
Well, I am not a calvinist sir. You can take your issues here with the calvinists to them.
Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
In verses 1-5, Paul expressed his wish concerning his brethren in the flesh, that is, the Israelites, the people of the nation of Israel. By such, he had us understand that Israel, as a whole, rejected Jesus as the Messiah. And he there tells us about them in connection to God and the Christ. Nothing more.
As I pointed out, their being symbolic of two different nations is irrelevant to Paul's point that God's election is not based on what good or evil Jacob or Esau have done. It is also irrelevant to Paul's explanation with regards the matter that even while apparently Israel, as a whole, rejected Jesus, that the word of God regarding this is not what it seems to be, as though, has taken no effect (v.6). Part of this explanation of Paul is the matter of the true identity of the children of God, that is, the Israel of God, and wherein, Paul had to point to God's sovereign acts of the election of Isaac and Jacob (v.6-13), an election based not of works but of God who calls.
You fail to see and acknowledge that what God did, from Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob, to Moses, to Jesus, came about based on God's sovereign act of election and not on anything else. And the consequence of not seeing and acknowledging that will be the failure to see that the true Israel of God, as identified by Paul there in Romans 9:6-8, shall all be saved by God by God's sovereign act of election, and that, by grace.
Tong
R0535
No sir. That again is a misuse of scriptures. Misuse in the sense that such scriptures does not say what you wanted to prove, that is, who the children of promise are.
God is not indebted to any sinner in any way, shape, or form. He is the Potter, the sovereign Creator. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Will you, a mere creature formed by God, dare say to Him, “Why have you not given me faith?”
Tong
R0536
Jesus will return to Israel. Not America.
Zechariah 14:2-4
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; ...
3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Right here:
" you said,"By grace through faith means faith is a cause of salvation." No sir. Faith is not a cause of salvation. As I said, it is part of the salvation of God, not the cause. The cause of salvation is God, not faith. For it is God who saves and therefore the cause of it."
God saves and that causes salvation. It's what you claim. Scripture says the opposite. Faith comes first, then God saves.
Lol, I already covered this. Yes they are born of God, but it only happens after belief. What you said here doesn't even address this fact.
If it talks like a Calvinist, it's a Calvinist. If you claim all thier beliefs, you are one whether you accept the title or not.
No no, he doesn't just stop talking about Israel at verse five. Why do you think he's explaining all this about how God worked through Israel? Most of the chapter is about Israel. Read the conclusion to understand why...
Anyone would ask this question if they were sentenced to hell with no hope of salvation.
But since that's not what Paul was even talking about here, but rather, this was his reply to a rebellious Jew, you are totally missing the point.
As for God being the Potter, cross reference the other scriptures about the Potter and clay and you will find it has nothing to do with irresistible grace or election to salvation. The clay isn't without choices.
I did. The Church is not Israel. Gentiles are not Israel.
Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
Is every Jew going to be saved or not?
Yes, gentiles are included in Israel if they are in Christ.
No! But all that is left of Israel will be saved when Jesus returns TO ISRAEL.
You clearly don't know the difference between Jews and Gentiles.
So, clearly I did not claim what you say I claimed Renniks. There is nothing in what I said there where I claim that faith comes after salvation. So, it's either you lied or misrepresented what I said.
And here is what I said in my other post relative to that, and I quote "With regards salvation, faith does not come before salvation, as if to say that salvation comes about because of faith or faith causes one's salvation. Rather, as part of the salvation of God, faith is just one among that which God will give the man whom He saves on the onset of His salvation work."
Tong
R0537
God has not forsaken Israel!
Romans 3:1-4
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?
Romans 3:1-4
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?
Perhaps that is what you want and what you say, but not what the scriptures says Renniks. Cite other scriptures, if any, that says that they are born of God after belief, for the scriptures you quoted does not say that.
John 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
His own did not receive Him (v.11). His "own", who are they?
There are those who received Him, those who believe in His name (v.12). Who are they?
Tong
R0538
I repeat, their being symbolic of two different nations is irrelevant to Paul's point that God's election is not based on what good or evil Jacob or Esau have done. It is also irrelevant to Paul's explanation with regards the matter that even while apparently Israel, as a whole, rejected Jesus, that the word of God regarding this is not what it seems to be, as though, has taken no effect (v.6). Part of this explanation of Paul is the matter of the true identity of the children of God, that is, the Israel of God, and wherein, Paul had to point to God's sovereign acts of the election of Isaac and Jacob (v.6-13), an election based not of works but of God who calls.
You fail to see and acknowledge that what God did, from Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob, to Moses, to Jesus, came about based on God's sovereign act of election and not on anything else. And the consequence of not seeing and acknowledging that will be the failure to see that the true Israel of God, as identified by Paul there in Romans 9:6-8, shall all be saved by God by God's sovereign act of election, and that, by grace.
Tong
R0539
Well, firstly I am not an "it". Secondly, I refuse to be called a Calvinist, for I don't believe what I believe because I believe what Calvin said and wrote. Rather, I believe what I believe because I believe in what Jesus and God said as written in scriptures. How about you, do you believe what you believe because you believe what Arminius said and wrote? I know you don't. That's why I never called you by his name, which is unbecoming of a Christian.
Tong
R0540
I was talking about what is in Romans 9:1-5. And here you are objecting to what I said in my post referring to the whole chapter, making it appear that I err? Such attitude. So tell us what else does the passage (v.1-5) say, more than what I said in my post sir?
Tong
R0541
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