I'm suggesting that scripture says all men are without excuse because God has been revealed to them. If God has not been revealed to them, they would have the perfect excuse at judgement day. You would not punish a child for something the child was unable to prevent. Not if you were a good father.
Saved Or Predestined ???
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The Apostles were Jews. They didn't reject Jesus.
Romans 3:1-2
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
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It seems to me that you even don't understand what you are objecting from.
God elects. And that, with purpose. That could be corporate sense or individual. And that could be for salvation or for judgment, or for a blessing or for a curse/disaster, or for honor or dishonor, or for mercy or hardening, etc. Now, consider Abram. His election is a sense individual. And his election is one that is for salvation, for blessing, for honor, for mercy, for service of God. And this election of Abraham is also in a sense corporate, for it includes the election of others who are in him, that is some of his descendants [Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses.....].
You have this problem and said "You claim God chose Jacob for salvation while hating Esau. If that's the case, what choice did Esau have but to be forever estranged from God?" You cannot seem to accept that God elected Jacob over Esau in both senses, individually and corporately. And you cannot seem to understand what that election was and why such election and when that election was actually made by God, even while Paul had told us all about that in Romans 9. You are arguing for something that isn't really arguable, such as the matter of man deciding his actions. That is a given and is not arguable. God's sovereignty isn't likewise arguable, even the election of people, be it individual or corporate, for whatever purpose and reason such election is made. Such is a divine privilege inherent to God who is the Creator of us all, and wherein all creation are from Him and through Him and for Him.
First, Jacob's election over Esau, does not render any one of them to be without choice with regards their actions, which is true also for all others who were chosen by God. Jacob's election, as pointed out by Paul, was even before he was born. And that his election is in relation to the election of Abram. Jacob's election places him in the favor of God in relation to His promises to Abraham. Like Abraham, Jacob's election was one that is for salvation, for blessing, for honor, for mercy, for service of God, in line with God's promises to Abraham. On the part of Esau, who was not elected as Jacob was, was therefore simply not placed in the same place as that of Jacob. Esau's situation is no different from the situation of the rest of the world in relation to the people of Israel. Jesus once pointed out a truth regarding the Jews to a Samaritan woman, "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews." That was the big difference between the chosen Israel and the rest of the world. It can be understood then that God's election of the people of Israel rendered the people of Israel under the blessing of God in relation to the matter of salvation, which rendered the rest of mankind as being not under the same blessing. That is the same for the case of Jacob and Esau.
You said "The most important choice, whether to follow God or not, you claim is already made for us." Never said nor claim anything to that effect sir. Another of your false accusation, if not, another of your strawmen.
You said "Faith is not something outside of us that is given to us." Of course it is. And I have shown that a number of times to you which you just, at each and every time, seem to not take notice and properly refute. Faith comes TO a person, and does not come FROM a person. What comes to man is something outside of man.
You said "We have to exercise our will in order to believe. It's a choice, not a gift." While they are connected and related, will and faith are two different things.
Tong
R0568
Then you did not really understand what I said, "that before Abram made his choice to believe and obey God, that God had convicted and convinced Abram that He is the true God and not the false gods he worships." Do you understand what having been convicted and convinced actually means?
Tong
R0569
I never ignore scriptures Renniks. Not even what you say in your posts, especially the relevant ones and on topic.
You said "What purpose would there be in hardening people who were incapable of being saved? They hardened thier own hearts first." Taking Israel, which is the subject of this discussion, God hardened Israel, saved the elect remnant, with the expressed purpose that Paul said in Romans 11. And yes, those who were hardened by God, are they who were in the first place hard, having hardened themselves. But the hardening of God is an act of God separate from their hardening themselves, and was done by God after they have hardened themselves. Now, before they were hardened by God, by the hardness of their heart, they rejected and continued to reject and deny the salvation of God in Jesus Christ. This begs the question, why then is there need for God to harden them when by themselves are already hard? What would be the difference if God just let them be and not hardened them? Please answer that.
You said "Yes God sent a temporary hardening, although it was not absolute and many still believed during Jesus ministry to them." Those whom God had hardened or blinded, would not be able to believe, unless their blindness is taken away by God. Consider what John tells us about the hardened and blinded by God.
John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
Those of Israel who believed during Jesus' ministry on earth, who are they then? They are among the number of the elect remnants spoken by Paul sir.
Now, let me take you back to my question which you again attempt to escape from.
With reference to Romans 11:25-26, "Had the fullness of the Gentiles already come in?" PLEASE ADDRESS THE QUESTION.
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R0570
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That is the problem when one does not see the difference or refuse to acknowledge the difference. By it, one can make scriptures mean anything they want it to mean.
I would admit that there is such a statement in the NIV translation. But it is with due diligence that the Christian go to the Greek and check. It seems to me that you refuse to do that.
As I said, Read also verse 39 and check the Greek word translated "were commended" in the NIV, that is, "emartyrēthēsan".
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R0571
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Let me then just ask you this question:
Do you agree that scriptures does not teach that God is under obligation to all of mankind to give each one equal opportunity to be saved?
Do you agree that scriptures does not teach that God had spoken to each and every sinful man that had ever lived and gave them equal opportunity to be saved?
Do you agree that all of sinful man, regardless of whether they had the same opportunity or not, like that afforded to Abraham to believe and obey and be saved, are without excuse so as not to deserve punishment anymore for their sins?
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R0572
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No, not every individual Jew rejected Jesus. This is why we can't take the hardening of the Jews as absolute.
If one is elected for salvation, can he be damned? If one is passed by for salvation, can he be saved? Then, any choice in regards to the most important thing in life, eternal life, is not available in either of these situations. You are arguing for theological determinism, although you refuse to see that.
That's exactly what you claimed in the case of Jacob and Esau, so quit blowing smoke.
I'm not arguing against God's sovereignty. The question isn't what God can do, it's what scripture tells us he actually does. The Bible places the choice for eternal life or eternal damnation on man, not on God.
Joshua 24:15
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
On the first question ~ he will be saved, therefore will no longer be damned. On the second question ~ he won't be saved and therefore remain damed.
In the former case or situation, did not Abraham chose to believe and obey God? Yes, he did.
And there is no determinism there Renniks. Only in your mind.
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R0573
No sir. Please quit putting words into my mouth and making false accusation. Read and understand what I post.
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R0574
I already did. Their hardening was a punishment for their disobedience.
The elect as referring to individuals are simply those who chose to believe, as I already showed. In case you missed it:
First, you need to read Chapter 10.
"Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness."
It's very plain, the Jews didn't follow God because they were trying to establish their own righteousness through works.
: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]
Who are the individually elect? Those who believe. Yes, its really that simple. Paul is rethinking election around the reality Jesus, and of the resurrection.
Yes, Israel were the chosen people as far as being given the Torah and the line of the Messiah, but anyone can be part of the chosen by believing on Jesus. This is what is meant by corporate election.
6 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. (But they could have) For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”[j]
20 And Isaiah boldly says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[k]
21 But concerning Israel he says,
“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
These verses show us unequivocally that God is not choosing some and rejecting others for salvation, but it is man's responsibility entirely to seek God.
You really want to go there? I don't want to go off on another course, but I would say that I'm not sure what time period is referred to as when the fullness of the Gentiles came in. If I had to hazard a guess, I don't think Paul really knew when this would happen either. I think he's hoping that once enough Gentiles became believers that the Jews would begin to see the light. In other words, it's not a prophecy so much as Paul restating that he wants his fellow Israelites to be saved asap.
So they gained approval. I don't see how that changes the meaning. The only way one can read it your way is if he wants to deny that a person can choose or reject God's leading. If commended for the work they did, that would be the work that's the result of choosing to be faithful. No difference.
You didn't even address the question. Again, if I am chosen for salvation, can I do otherwise? No, it is a predetermined condition. There's no escaping the obvious.
I did. Did you not claim Jacob was chosen for salvation and Esau was not? Throwing up a smoke screen does not hide the obvious conclusions.
If you don't then that's good. For as I said, God's sovereignty isn't arguable.
You said "The Bible places the choice for eternal life or eternal damnation on man, not on God." In the very beginning, Adam, the father of mankind, had chosen to go against the will of God, when he ate of the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, wherein as a consequence is that which is spelled out in the commandment, that is, "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die". So, man, in Adam, had brought upon himself, eternal damnation, that is death, even the second death ~ hell.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So we can understand that eternal life is a gift, unlike death that comes as wages, and that of sin.
It is God's choice to save or not. That's why we read in scriptures "Salvation belongs to the Lord." And the salvation of God of mankind is by grace through faith. Consider in ancient days, God chose to save Noah and family with those who are in the ark from death, and that is by grace and through faith. For this is how Noah and family were saved from certain death brought about by the flood ~ God warned Noah of the coming destruction of all flesh, and by faith Noah obeyed God and prepared the ark for which God had told him to build. Now, in these last days, God in the same way that He saved Noah, chose to save His elect people by grace through faith. For this is what is written in scriptures:
Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household."
So, you see, both in ancient times and these last days, on the matter of salvation, God chooses to whom He gives grace (mercy), after which He works out to save him through faith, by speaking His words to the point that they are convicted and convinced, that they might have faith.
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R0575
What we need to do, instead of ppl arguing about their "rights", etc., is humbly to bow before the glorious fact that the Father indeed sent the Son to be the Saviour.
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