Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Peterlag]

Who has said "we are all Jews or Gentiles"? Paul does not, and neither have I heard others here say this. What Paul and some of us are saying is that just because one is ethnically Jewish does not mean they belong to "the Israel of God." Paul shows us that Israel exists as not only an ethnic nation, but more importantly within Israel is found another Israel that Paul calls "Israel of God" or Israel of faith. It is not that the New Covenant Church replaces Israel, but rather that the New Covenant Church; i.e. Gentiles of faith, are grafted into Israel of God, and together Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith are the fullness of the body of Christ that have been redeemed by Christ.

I disagree. This grafting you speak about is coming from Romans 11 where Paul leaves the context of writing about Christian concepts and takes a couple of chapters to speak to Israel. And this is why I'm saying we need to watch to whom it is addressed. There is nothing taught in any other part of the Epistles that Jews and Christians are of the same body. Israel is the bride. The Christian is the body. There's two and not all one mixed together. Yeah and someone did post a comment saying the "Gentile Christian" which makes no sense and I can find that comment if you want me to.

 

[Peterlag]

Are you not aware that Jesus reprimanded Peter for the same error?

Matthew 16
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

That was Jesus reprimanding Peter. Not God. There is no verse or half a verse anywhere in the entire Bible that says God humbled Himself. Not one. In fact, not a whole lot of people lived to long whoever messed with God. And that includes the Ark of the Covenant. You better not have dropped it if you were carrying it. Or even bump into it if you were not carrying it.

 

[rwb]

I disagree. This grafting you speak about is coming from Romans 11 where Paul leaves the context of writing about Christian concepts and takes a couple of chapters to speak to Israel. And this is why I'm saying we need to watch to whom it is addressed. There is nothing taught in any other part of the Epistles that Jews and Christians are of the same body. Israel is the bride. The Christian is the body. There's two and not all one mixed together. Yeah and someone did post a comment saying the "Gentile Christian" which makes no sense and I can find that comment if you want me to.

Who do you think Paul is writing his epistle to those Romans are? The Church was primarily Gentile believers, who are indeed called 'Christians'. The whole context of the letter to the Church at Rome is about Christianity or as you say about "Christian concepts". Explaining that there is in Christ no difference between Israel of God and Gentiles converts to Christ. All believers are of the same good Seed (Christ), as one holy people unto God.

 

[rwb]

That was Jesus reprimanding Peter. Not God. There is no verse or half a verse anywhere in the entire Bible that says God humbled Himself. Not one. In fact, not a whole lot of people lived to long whoever messed with God. And that includes the Ark of the Covenant. You better not have dropped it if you were carrying it. Or even bump into it if you were not carrying it.

Are you another Jehovah's Witness that comes to a Christian community to deny the deity of Christ? God humbled Himself by taking on the form of a human, becoming like us, but never did He depart from being God. There is only one means for whereby man may be saved! That is through God alone! If Christ is not God, we have no Saviour!

 

[Peterlag]

Unbegotten: God the Father:

6 There is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
-- 1 Corinthians 8

The Word of the LORD and the Spirit of the LORD

6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
-- Psalm 33

The Father is greater than all because His Word, by Whom He made the worlds, will always accomplish the will of the Father, but God is One:

10 For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do.
-- Isaiah 55

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
-- John 10

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

Take off your blindfolds and let the light shine into your darkness, Peter. The Word of God, in whom is all the power of God, became a man, and all power in heaven and on earth is now given to a man - the Man, Jesus Christ.

Hey you post a lot of data that I comment on. How about you let me post one and you comment on it? Behold...

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

There are a number of other New Testament verses that state Jesus was a man and we can see them in places like Romans that says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

1 Timothy 2:5 says that it's the man Jesus, who was the mediator between God and men. “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” This verse calls Jesus Christ a “man” even after his resurrection. Trinitarian doctrine tries to explain the verses that say Jesus was a man by saying that he was a man, but he was also 100% God at the same time. But there are problems with that such as there is no single verse that says Jesus was both God and man and that's why the God-man doctrine is built from many verses.

Furthermore, scholars admit that there are only about eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture. In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.

 

[Ziggy]

I disagree. This grafting you speak about is coming from Romans 11 where Paul leaves the context of writing about Christian concepts and takes a couple of chapters to speak to Israel. And this is why I'm saying we need to watch to whom it is addressed. There is nothing taught in any other part of the Epistles that Jews and Christians are of the same body. Israel is the bride. The Christian is the body. There's two and not all one mixed together. Yeah and someone did post a comment saying the "Gentile Christian" which makes no sense and I can find that comment if you want me to.

There is though:

Eph 3:1
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Hugs

 

[rwb]

Hey you post a lot of data that I comment on. How about you let me post one and you comment on it? Behold...

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

There are a number of other New Testament verses that state Jesus was a man and we can see them in places like Romans that says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

1 Timothy 2:5 says that it's the man Jesus, who was the mediator between God and men. “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” This verse calls Jesus Christ a “man” even after his resurrection. Trinitarian doctrine tries to explain the verses that say Jesus was a man by saying that he was a man, but he was also 100% God at the same time. But there are problems with that such as there is no single verse that says Jesus was both God and man and that's why the God-man doctrine is built from many verses.

Furthermore, scholars admit that there are only about eight verses in the entire New Testament that can be understood to say that Jesus is God, and every one of them can either be translated in a way that supports the Biblical Unitarian position, or disputed textually, or can be explained from the use of the word “God” in the culture. In contrast, the clear verses where Jesus is said to be a “man” such as when Peter or Paul taught their audiences that Jesus was a man appointed by God are not disputed and in the context there does not seem to be any good reason those men would not have said Jesus was a God-man if in fact that is what he is.

I hear no one denying that Jesus was fully human! What Christians deny is that He was not also fully God incarnate, or God in human flesh!

 

[Peterlag]

Are you not aware that Jesus reprimanded Peter for the same error?

Matthew 16
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

That was Jesus reprimanding Peter. Not God. There is no verse or half a verse anywhere in the entire Bible that says God humbled Himself. Not one. In fact, not a whole lot of people lived too long whoever messed with God. And that includes the Ark of the Covenant. You better not have dropped it if you were carrying it. Or even bump into it if you were not carrying it.

 

[Zao is life]

There are a number of other New Testament verses that state Jesus was a man and we can see them in places like Romans that says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin.

There is absolutely nothing strange about His apostles referring to Him as a man. He is indeed a man. So your argument is a nothing-burger argument in that regard.

Yet no other man ever born into the world except Jesus was ever not fathered by a man. That alone tells you that He was no ordinary man. Yet you try to make Him just like all other men.

All the sons of Adam (man) have sin, but this man had no sin. He was a spotless Lamb of God given for the sins of man and whose righteousness is credited to those who believe in Him. What an amazing man, to have been 100% righteous. What idolatry, if we are told by the apostles that the righteousness of a mere man can cover our nakedness if they were telling us to believe in a mere man.

Yet He is the Son of God. The Word of God existed with God and was God from before the creation. He became a man. He is indeed both God and man.

Though scripture provides so much evidence of who He is, your insistence that all scriptures that prove that He is God should be discounted so that you can seek to drag His status down the the same level as all other men is blasphemous and non-Christian, IMO:

There is no single verse that says Jesus was both God and man and that's why the God-man doctrine is built from many verses.

 

[Peterlag]

There is though:

Eph 3:1
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Hugs

The Gentiles become fellow heirs when they become a Christian. Something that was not available to them in the Old Testament. Once the Gentiles become fellow heirs they are no longer Gentiles because they are now Christian or as the text reads of the same body. Not the bride. The body and that's the Christian doctrine.

 

[Peterlag]

There is absolutely nothing strange about His apostles referring to Him as a man. He is indeed a man. So your argument is a nothing-burger argument in that regard.

Yet no other man ever born into the world except Jesus was ever not fathered by a man. That alone tells you that He was no ordinary man. Yet you try to make Him just like all other men.

All the sons of Adam (man) have sin, but this man had no sin. He was a spotless Lamb of God given for the sins of man and whose righteousness is credited to those who believe in Him. What an amazing man, to have been 100% righteous. What idolatry, if we are told by the apostles that the righteousness of a mere man can cover our nakedness if they were telling us to believe in a mere man.

Yet He is the Son of God. The Word of God existed with God and was God from before the creation. He became a man. He is indeed both God and man.

Though scripture provides so much evidence of who He is, your insistence that all scriptures that prove that He is God should be discounted so that you can seek to drag His status down the the same level as all other men is blasphemous and non-Christian, IMO.

I never said Jesus was like all other men. Show me where I said that?

 

[Peterlag]

Are you another Jehovah's Witness that comes to a Christian community to deny the deity of Christ? God humbled Himself by taking on the form of a human, becoming like us, but never did He depart from being God. There is only one means for whereby man may be saved! That is through God alone! If Christ is not God, we have no Saviour!

No I am not a Jehovah's Witness nor was I ever.

 

[Peterlag]

Who do you think Paul is writing his epistle to those Romans are? The Church was primarily Gentile believers, who are indeed called 'Christians'. The whole context of the letter to the Church at Rome is about Christianity or as you say about "Christian concepts". Explaining that there is in Christ no difference between Israel of God and Gentiles converts to Christ. All believers are of the same good Seed (Christ), as one holy people unto God.

The Scriptures don't use the words you use. Paul never says "Gentile believers" and this is what I'm trying to tell you folks.

 

[Ziggy]

Act 7:2
And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
Act 7:3
And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.

Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exo 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exo 6:6
Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:

Mat 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jas 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jhn 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Jhn 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jhn 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Jesus is I AM.

Hugs

 

[Zao is life]

That was Jesus reprimanding Peter. Not God. There is no verse or half a verse anywhere in the entire Bible that says God humbled Himself. Not one. In fact, not a whole lot of people lived too long whoever messed with God. And that includes the Ark of the Covenant. You better not have dropped it if you were carrying it. Or even bump into it if you were not carrying it.

Explain to us what, in your opinion, this means:

5 For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
-- Philippians 2

From the form of God to the form of a servant. He humbled Himself.

What other man existed in the form of God before he was born so that he could be made in the likeness of men and take the form of a servant? And was without sin? And fulfilled the law? And rose from the dead? And was considered worthy to bear the sin of many?

 

[Ziggy]

The Gentiles become fellow heirs when they become a Christian. Something that was not available to them in the Old Testament. Once the Gentiles become fellow heirs they are no longer Gentiles because they are now Christian or as the text reads of the same body. Not the bride. The body and that's the Christian doctrine.

Abraham was a Gentile. He believed God. And God called him his friend.
Israel did not exist until Jacob became a man.
God CHOSE the Gentiles first.
And from the Gentiles God chose out for himself a nation to show forth his truth.
And he called this nation Israel.
Israel failed in their objective many times but God forgave them.
Not 7 times but 7 times 77..and beyond.

Interesting that John the baptist refered to himself as the "friend" of the bridegroom and not the bride.

Gentiles were fellowheirs of Christ through Abrahams faith long before Israel existed.

Hugs

 

[Peterlag]

Abraham was a Gentile. He believed God. And God called him his friend.
Israel did not exist until Jacob became a man.
God CHOSE the Gentiles first.
And from the Gentiles God chose out for himself a nation to show forth his truth.
And he called this nation Israel.
Israel failed in their objective many times but God forgave them.
Not 7 times but 7 times 77..and beyond.

Interesting that John the baptist refered to himself as the "friend" of the bridegroom and not the bride.

Gentiles were fellowheirs of Christ through Abrahams faith long before Israel existed.

Hugs

See we are not on the same page. Abraham has nothing to do with what God created in Christ Jesus.

 

[rwb]

The Scriptures don't use the words you use. Paul never says "Gentile believers" and this is what I'm trying to tell you folks.

And your point is??? There are many Gentile believers, here are two examples of this truth. Will you deny that Gentiles that believe in Christ are indeed Gentile believers? That simply makes a distinction between Jews, who before Christ believed that salvation was for them alone, and non-jews or Gentiles who are also by grace through faith saved when they believe in Christ.

Acts 15:7 (KJV) And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 21:25 (KJV) As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

 

[Peterlag]

Explain to us what, in your opinion, this means:

5 For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
-- Philippians 2

From the form of God to the form of a servant. He humbled Himself.

What other man existed in the form of God before he was born so that he could be made in the likeness of men and take the form of a servant? And was without sin? And fulfilled the law? And rose from the dead? And was considered worthy to bear the sin of many?

It means Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[rwb]

See we are not on the same page. Abraham has nothing to do with what God created in Christ Jesus.

You do understand that it is through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that the Seed (Christ) was born? And it is by having faith like that of Abraham's that man believes in Christ for eternal life???