Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[covenantee]

I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose.

John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

That is infinitely more than simply "purpose".

That is Jesus declaring that He possesses every supernatural power that the Father possesses to bestow eternal imperishable life, and to preserve and retain those who are His.

Only God possesses such power.

But Jesus declares that He Himself possesses the same power.

Because Jesus is God.

 

[covenantee]

But I posted in support of Romans 9:6-8.... did you not read my post??? The other Paul in scripture...told us no less than 6 times... All is of God! Now read my post again... knowing this fact!!!

Good. So did I.

 

[Zao is life]

There is no teaching anywhere in the Christian Bible on this subject. There's only a few of you folks yelling at me that I'm blind and can't see it. There is no place in the Old or New Testament where a chapter or two is taught on this subject. You only have a few verses scattered in different parts that you say teach it. And everyone of them does not hold any water once you look at it with an intelligent eye ball. For an example I gave you just last night John 10:30.

And every one of them does not hold water when looked at with the blinded eyes of a biased, unintelligent eyeball.

To imply that you're the only one looking at the scriptures that teach us about the Trinity with an "intelligent eyeball", is beyond funny.

 

[rwb]

We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we neglect to rightly divide the subject matter. As far as we are concerned in this Grace administration, what happened to Israel in the Old Testament was written for our learning. If we do not rightly divide to whom it's addressed—the Jew, Gentile, or the Church of God, we will use one truth to contradict another truth, and we will use what is true for one group in contrast to what is also true for another group.

These different administrations are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

What is written directly to the Jews, belongs to and is for the Jews. What is written directly to the Gentiles, belongs to and is for the Gentiles. What is written directly to the Church of God, belongs to and is for the Church of God. What does God mean when He tells us that the visions shown to Isaiah was concerning Judah and Jerusalem? It was not addressed to us or written concerning us, but it was addressed to and concerning Judah and Jerusalem. It would be dishonest for the Church of God to interpret to the Church of God what God said concerns Israel.

The prophets of Old write of all things that are written being fulfilled through the Messiah who was to come. Therefore, the prophecies are to saints of all nations both before and after the advent of Christ coming to earth a man. It is in trying to lock the prophecies of Old to be directed to Israel of Old that you lack understanding of the prophetic Word.

 

[rwb]

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, covenantee, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Someone is talking to you...
"the other" Paul

All Israel cannot be an ethnic people since they are ALL saved only by the fulness of the Gentiles being grafted into the same good olive tree of faith with them. That makes ALL Israel people of faith from every nation of the world. The Covenant that is through the seed of Jacob (Christ) is with them, Jews and Gentiles of faith together. The Deliverer that comes out of Zion will take away their sins.

 

[Peterlag]

The prophets of Old write of all things that are written being fulfilled through the Messiah who was to come. Therefore, the prophecies are to saints of all nations both before and after the advent of Christ coming to earth a man. It is in trying to lock the prophecies of Old to be directed to Israel of Old that you lack understanding of the prophetic Word.

I think so many of you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm still not sure. I think you think I'm saying Christians should not read the Old Testament. Or that all people should not read the New Testament because it is not addressed to them or written concerning them. I am not saying that. I'm saying we cannot mix them and think that for example the Jewish Laws apply to us in the New Testament. Christian data is only written in the New Testament and so we cannot read Isaiah and think we can learn the Christian walk from it.

 

[Peterlag]

And every one of them does not hold water when looked at with the blinded eyes of a biased, unintelligent eyeball.

To imply that you're the only one looking at the scriptures that teach us about the Trinity with an "intelligent eyeball", is beyond funny.

I'm not the only one and even on this Christian forum there are dozens of us.

 

[Peterlag]

John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

That is infinitely more than simply "purpose".

That is Jesus declaring that He possesses every supernatural power that the Father possesses to bestow eternal imperishable life, and to preserve and retain those who are His.

Only God possesses such power.

But Jesus declares that He Himself possesses the same power.

Because Jesus is God.

You see this is a big problem the way you guys jump from one thought to the next without any Scripture. For example there's no place in the Bible that says "Only God possesses such power." The Scriptures say that God made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ. The following two verses say just the opposite of "Only God possesses such power."

However, after Christ rose from the dead, he had authority in Heaven, on Earth, and under the Earth (Philippians 2:10).

Part of Matthew 28:18 says...
All power is given unto Christ in heaven and in earth.

 

[Peterlag]

Nay... there's plenty of Scripture examples that there's 3 Persons that make up The Godhead.

Heb 1:1-3
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
KJV

Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel', which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV


Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
KJV

Matt 22:41-45
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, "What think ye of Christ? whose son is He?" They say unto him, "The Son of David."
43 He saith unto them, "How then doth David in spirit call Him Lord, saying,
44 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand, till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool?'
45 If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?"
KJV

Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
KJV

Eph 2:18
18 For through Him (Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
KJV

2 Cor 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
KJV

I don't see what you see. For example how do these 2 verses teach anything other than Jesus is the Messiah

Eph 2:18
18 For through Him (Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
KJV

2 Cor 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
KJV

 

[rwb]

I think so many of you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm still not sure. I think you think I'm saying Christians should not read the Old Testament. Or that all people should not read the New Testament because it is not addressed to them or written concerning them. I am not saying that. I'm saying we cannot mix them and think that for example the Jewish Laws apply to us in the New Testament. Christian data is only written in the New Testament and so we cannot read Isaiah and think we can learn the Christian walk from it.

While it's true that much of what is written of Old was for the nation of Israel, it's a mistake to limit what is written there to only them. I'm not sure what you are speaking of when you say, "we cannot mix them". I assume you mean what is written regarding the Old Covenant Laws and prophets and what is written to the New Testament Church. I think you are saying the Law & prophets cannot be mixed with the Gospel of grace. It seems your major concern is that New Covenant believers don't begin to think the prophecies of Old are written also to them. We don't read the prophecies of Isaiah to learn how to be a Christian by grace through faith. We read the prophecies of Isaiah to remember that God does not change, and the prophecies of Old apply just as much to believers today as they do for the faithful saints of Old. In reading the Old Covenant Prophets we also learn how the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord were fulfilled, and are being fulfilled since Christ came to earth a man. All of the prophets write of Him coming in time to save the faithful from sin and give eternal life to all who believe in Him. I think you are trying to read the prophecies as though they are written only to the ethnic nation, Israel of Old, but the prophecies cannot be rightly understood if you try to force their fulfillment unto ethnic Israel alone.

 

[Peterlag]

While it's true that much of what is written of Old was for the nation of Israel, it's a mistake to limit what is written there to only them. I'm not sure what you are speaking of when you say, "we cannot mix them". I assume you mean what is written regarding the Old Covenant Laws and prophets and what is written to the New Testament Church. I think you are saying the Law & prophets cannot be mixed with the Gospel of grace. It seems your major concern is that New Covenant believers don't begin to think the prophecies of Old are written also to them. We don't read the prophecies of Isaiah to learn how to be a Christian by grace through faith. We read the prophecies of Isaiah to remember that God does not change, and the prophecies of Old apply just as much to believers today as they do for the faithful saints of Old. In reading the Old Covenant Prophets we also learn how the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord were fulfilled, and are being fulfilled since Christ came to earth a man. All of the prophets write of Him coming in time to save the faithful from sin and give eternal life to all who believe in Him. I think you are trying to read the prophecies as though they are written only to the ethnic nation, Israel of Old, but the prophecies cannot be rightly understood if you try to force their fulfillment unto ethnic Israel alone.

You are not reading what I write in the context to those I wrote it to or you would not be writing what you just wrote. I'm on the same page with what you just wrote. What I write to others about this subject is when they use words like we are all Jews or Gentiles or the Gentile Christian. That's when I write that they are mixing the Old with the New.

 

[covenantee]

You see this is a big problem the way you guys jump from one thought to the next without any Scripture. For example there's no place in the Bible that says "Only God possesses such power." The Scriptures say that God made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ. The following two verses say just the opposite of "Only God possesses such power."

However, after Christ rose from the dead, he had authority in Heaven, on Earth, and under the Earth (Philippians 2:10).

Part of Matthew 28:18 says...
All power is given unto Christ in heaven and in earth.

You ignored the final two sentences.

But Jesus declares that He Himself possesses the same power as God.

Because Jesus is God.

His audience recognized it.

John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Awaiting your explanations for the plethora of Scripture in posts 292 et al.

Of whom is Isaiah prophesying?

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Peterlag]

You ignored the final two sentences.

But Jesus declares that He Himself possesses the same power as God.

Because Jesus is God.

His audience recognized it.

John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Awaiting your explanations for the plethora of Scripture in posts 292 et al.

Of whom is Isaiah prophesying?

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I don't ignore anything. I respond what I think is dealing with what you are saying. Here I will respond to John 10:33. That does not mean I'm ignoring Isaiah. I have guys who writer 20 verses and I can't respond to 20 verses in detail.

John 10:33
Had the translators rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verse 34 and 35, then it would read, "...you, a man, claim to be a god." In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as "god" and not "God." In Acts 12:22, Herod is called theos without the article, so the translators translate it "god." The same is true in Acts 28:6, when Paul had been bitten by a viper and the people expected him to die. When he did not die, "...they changed their minds and said he was a god." Since theos has no article, and since it is clear from the context that the reference is not about the true God, theos is translated "a god." It is a general principle that theos without the article should be "a god," or "divine." Since there is no evidence that Jesus was teaching that he was God anywhere in the context, and since the Pharisees would have never believed that this man was somehow Yahweh, it makes no sense that they would be saying that he said he was "God." Now since Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God's work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be "a god" or "divine."

 

[covenantee]

I don't ignore anything. I respond what I think is dealing with what you are saying. Here I will respond to John 10:33. That does not mean I'm ignoring Isaiah. I have guys who writer 20 verses and I can't respond to 20 verses in detail.

John 10:33
Had the translators rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verse 34 and 35, then it would read, "...you, a man, claim to be a god." In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as "god" and not "God." In Acts 12:22, Herod is called theos without the article, so the translators translate it "god." The same is true in Acts 28:6, when Paul had been bitten by a viper and the people expected him to die. When he did not die, "...they changed their minds and said he was a god." Since theos has no article, and since it is clear from the context that the reference is not about the true God, theos is translated "a god." It is a general principle that theos without the article should be "a god," or "divine." Since there is no evidence that Jesus was teaching that he was God anywhere in the context, and since the Pharisees would have never believed that this man was somehow Yahweh, it makes no sense that they would be saying that he said he was "God." Now since Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God's work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be "a god" or "divine."

John 10:33 Greek

Not "a god".

"God". Without the article.

It would not have been considered blasphemy if Jesus was merely claiming to be "a god".

But He was claiming to be "God", which He is.

Hence the accusation of blasphemy.

 

[Peterlag]

John 10:33 Greek

Not "a god".

"God". Without the article.

It would not have been considered blasphemy if Jesus was merely claiming to be "a god".

But He was claiming to be "God", which He is.

Hence the accusation of blasphemy.

You can trust me when I say that had Jesus been God... nobody and I mean nobody would have spit in his face or nailed him to a tree.

 

[covenantee]

You can trust me when I say that had Jesus been God... nobody and I mean nobody would have spit in his face or nailed him to a tree.

Unless He permitted it.

Which He did. Isaiah 53

For our salvation.

 

[Zao is life]

You see this is a big problem the way you guys jump from one thought to the next without any Scripture. For example there's no place in the Bible that says "Only God possesses such power." The Scriptures say that God made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ. The following two verses say just the opposite of "Only God possesses such power."

However, after Christ rose from the dead, he had authority in Heaven, on Earth, and under the Earth (Philippians 2:10).

Part of Matthew 28:18 says...
All power is given unto Christ in heaven and in earth.

Unbegotten: God the Father:

6 There is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
-- 1 Corinthians 8

The Word of the LORD and the Spirit of the LORD

6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
-- Psalm 33

The Father is greater than all because His Word, by Whom He made the worlds, will always accomplish the will of the Father, but God is One:

10 For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do.
-- Isaiah 55

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
-- John 10

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.

Take off your blindfolds and let the light shine into your darkness, Peter. The Word of God, in whom is all the power of God, became a man, and all power in heaven and on earth is now given to a man - the Man, Jesus Christ.

 

[covenantee]

You can trust me when I say that had Jesus been God... nobody and I mean nobody would have spit in his face or nailed him to a tree.

Are you not aware that Jesus reprimanded Peter for the same error?

Matthew 16
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[Ziggy]

Lev 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Mar 12:31
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Gal 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Rom 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

2Co 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight)

Of Bigotry and Bias:

Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Is God a Jew or a Gentile?

1Co 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Why did God choose Israel ?
Deu 4:5
Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Deu 4:6
Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

Surely it was to be a "light" unto the gentiles who would hear them.
But...

Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Act 14:27
And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Rom 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Replacement Theory:

Exo 3:12
And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

Isa 25:7
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

Jhn 4:20
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jhn 4:21
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Israel is not flesh and blood but rather spirit and truth.

couldn't resist :)

That doesnt mean we cast off the old because of the new, but rather unify under one spirit and one truth.
And Israel in the flesh will be converted and be free from the veil which keeps them covered from the truth.

When they can say to this mountain...

Mat 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

there is NO TIME left for bigotry.
there is NO TIME left for biases.

Rev 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

God will sort it out. As for us we shall love our neighbors as ourselves, even the strangers the sojourn amongst us.
Because we have all been strangers at sometime.

Exo 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

The only Replacement Theory that is truth is that this world government run by satan will be replaced by God's government.
And the only way into that kingdom is by faith, not by flesh and blood.

1Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Rom 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 13:13
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Hugs

 

[rwb]

You are not reading what I write in the context to those I wrote it to or you would not be writing what you just wrote. I'm on the same page with what you just wrote. What I write to others about this subject is when they use words like we are all Jews or Gentiles or the Gentile Christian. That's when I write that they are mixing the Old with the New.

Who has said "we are all Jews or Gentiles"? Paul does not, and neither have I heard others here say this. What Paul and some of us are saying is that just because one is ethnically Jewish does not mean they belong to "the Israel of God." Paul shows us that Israel exists as not only an ethnic nation, but more importantly within Israel is found another Israel that Paul calls "Israel of God" or Israel of faith. It is not that the New Covenant Church replaces Israel, but rather that the New Covenant Church; i.e. Gentiles of faith, are grafted into Israel of God, and together Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith are the fullness of the body of Christ that have been redeemed by Christ.