Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[Randy Kluth]

The heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire in Judgement at his return

2 Peter 3:10-11KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Those passages do not resolve the Scriptures that claim the earth is forever. You get a D for trying, and an F for failing to produce. I think I would be more gracious about it if you were more gracious with me? These are not easy questions. If they were, they would've been resolved among well-meaning Christians a very long time ago.

 

[Truth7t7]

Those passages do not resolve the Scriptures that claim the earth is forever. You get a D for trying, and an F for failing to produce. I think I would be more gracious about it if you were more gracious with me? These are not easy questions. If they were, they would've been resolved among well-meaning Christians a very long time ago.

You have already been clearly answered in post #62, you may not like the answer, here it is again

The Earth will remain forever, its called "New Earth" not Pluto, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, or the Moon, but "New Earth"

A New Creation, Behold, I Make All Things New

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[Truth7t7]

how do you resolve the problem of Calvin's double predestination? Do you believe God predetermined people to burn in Hell?

If you can't answer these questions specifically, I'll understand. These kinds of questions have been argued over for centuries! ;)

You have been answered once, here it is again

God has foreknowledge and is Omniscient, he's the Alpha/Omega, it's that simple

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have been answered once, here it is again

God has foreknowledge and is Omniscient, he's the Alpha/Omega, it's that simple

For the 2nd time, you've failed. You get a double F.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have already been clearly answered in post #62, you may not like the answer, here it is again

The Earth will remain forever, its called "New Earth" not Pluto, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, or the Moon, but "New Earth"

You've basically said that destruction of the elements is not local, but in effect the earth disintegrates. Now you say the earth is "forever," as I quoted from the Scriptures.

You have not resolved your contradiction. You get another F grade for failed production, but maybe a C for effort in recognizing that indeed, the Scriptures say the earth is forever.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have been answered once, here it is again

God has foreknowledge and is Omniscient, he's the Alpha/Omega, it's that simple

You have not answered the question: Do you believe God predestined people to burn in Hell forever? Do you believe in Double Predestination? Quit beating around the bush.

The default answer for those who don't know is, "God knows everything." Big deal! That tells nobody anything about your position on this.

 

[Randy Kluth]

All who were judged ended up dead. You can call that grace and mercy.

Yes, Amills believe that Christ's Coming will bring a complete end. There will be no mercy for the nation Israel, nor for any nation after that because Amills believe all the issues of judgment are resolved in the current age. At least, that's what I've gotten from them repeatedly.

 

[Truth7t7]

You've basically said that destruction of the elements is not local, but in effect the earth disintegrates. Now you say the earth is "forever," as I quoted from the Scriptures.

You have not resolved your contradiction. You get another F grade for failed production, but maybe a C for effort in recognizing that indeed, the Scriptures say the earth is forever.

You have already been clearly answered in post #62, you may not like the answer, here it is again

The Earth will remain forever, its called "New Earth" not Pluto, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, or the Moon, but "New Earth"

A New Creation, Behold, I Make All Things New

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[Truth7t7]

You have not answered the question: Do you believe God predestined people to burn in Hell forever? Do you believe in Double Predestination? Quit beating around the bush.

The default answer for those who don't know is, "God knows everything." Big deal! That tells nobody anything about your position on this.

You have been answered once, here it is again

God has foreknowledge and is Omniscient, he's the Alpha/Omega, it's that simple

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have been answered once, here it is again

God has foreknowledge and is Omniscient, he's the Alpha/Omega, it's that simple

You've repeatedly "beaten around the bush." I get it--you have nothing else.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did in post #2. That was very, very specific.
Your question was about whether the prophecy of Israel's restoration, made in Rom 11, was about an OT prophecy or a NT prophecy? It obviously was an OT prophecy that Paul was supporting and teaching.

But your statement was predicated on what I think was a falsity, namely that this was strictly about spiritual salvation. It wasn't.

Paul said what he did in verses 25-27 immediately after describing how Gentile believers are grafted in with Israelite believers in the cultivated olive tree. You don't think that represented spiritual salvation? When Paul mention all Israel being saved in verse 26 you don't think that's talking about spiritual salvation?

The prophecy is based on the principle contained in the blessings and cursings of the Law, in which the nation would be blessed by a predominance of faithfulness on the part of Israel.

It never had to do with a supposed necessity that every individual get saved and comply. The majority were supposed to deal with recalcitrant and rebellious individuals so that the nation would continue to be dominated by righteous practices.

And so, I had to add to your questions an explanation showing that this prophecy was properly focused on Israel's political deliverance, which would take place simultaneously with the nation's repentance. This does not require 100% compliance by all individuals, nor 100% spiritual regeneration.

Rather, it requires the nation expressing a collective will that determines to keep rebellious individuals from threatening the religious and social order. Then spiritual and material blessings upon the nation are assured, which I believe will be true of every Christian nation in the age to come.

Did Paul just completely change the subject in verse 25 then? You don't think he was expanding on what he had just been talking about immediately before that? Or do you believe he was, but you disagree that he was talking about spiritual salvation when talking about being grafted into the cultivated olive tree?

It's always hard to know exactly how you come to your conclusions because you never break scripture down to show how you come to them. So, I'm left guessing as to how exactly you come to your conclusions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amil teaches total and climactic destruction. That is their MO. No grace or mercy whatsoever.

This is another lie from you about Amil. How many have you told at this point? I've lost count. God's grace and mercy have been shown to the world every day for thousands of years. All Amils believe that. So, to say that Amils allows for "no grace or mercy whatsoever" is a blatant lie. God is giving people plenty of opportunities to repent before Christ returns. But, He's not going to give them eternity to do that. People need to make up their minds before it's too late. Jesus will return one day and it will be too late for anyone to repent once He does. But, people have plenty of opportunities to do so in the meantime.

Amil keep making the excuse we are in the here and now, but their Second Coming is a bust, because they do not allow God any time to work at the Second Coming.

LOL. God has been working for around 6,000 years already. Why does He need more time after the second coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, Amills believe that Christ's Coming will bring a complete end. There will be no mercy for the nation Israel, nor for any nation after that because Amills believe all the issues of judgment are resolved in the current age. At least, that's what I've gotten from them repeatedly.

God has shown plenty of grace and mercy for a long time now, as all Amils and Premils agree on, so it's quite dishonest for you guys to make it as if Amills do not believe that God shows Israel or any other nation any mercy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God has shown plenty of grace and mercy for a long time now, as all Amils and Premils agree on, so it's quite dishonest for you guys to make it as if Amills do not believe that God shows Israel or any other nation any mercy.

No, it's not dishonest. If it doesn't apply to you then that makes me happy. But generally, many Amills I've dealt with have depreciated the idea that Israel can come to Christ as a nation. In fact, it seems to have caused them to believe we should all hate the State and reject the notion of any nation adopting Christianity.

Just my experience, brother. It encourages me if you don't agree with them! I'm aware that my own personal experiences are limited.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Paul said what he did in verses 25-27 immediately after describing how Gentile believers are grafted in with Israelite believers in the cultivated olive tree. You don't think that represented spiritual salvation? When Paul mention all Israel being saved in verse 26 you don't think that's talking about spiritual salvation?

Yes, Paul spoke of the initial salvation of Christ, after his Cross, as well as of the future national salvation of Israel. Two different things, in my opinion.

Did Paul just completely change the subject in verse 25 then? You don't think he was expanding on what he had just been talking about immediately before that? Or do you believe he was, but you disagree that he was talking about spiritual salvation when talking about being grafted into the cultivated olive tree?

The "grafting in" certainly was not initially about the future salvation of national Israel. But it led up to it. As Gentiles were grafted into Israel's faith, initially, so in the future Israel will be allowed back into the family of faith. At the time Paul was writing this there were not, as yet, any Christian nations. The only nation of God was Israel at that time.

And so, Paul depicted Gentiles coming to salvation as being grafted onto the tree of Israel in the ideal sense of Israel's call being to be a nation of faith. But ultimately, Jesus said the Kingdom would be taken from Israel and given to a Gentile nation, which I believe was the Roman State after Theodosius.

And so, Gentiles no longer need to be grafted onto the "tree of Israel," particularly since Israel ceased to be a nation in the land of Israel after Paul's time. That was just a way of expressing how Israel had faith first, and Gentiles had to adapt to them, instead of remaining pagan nations.

It's always hard to know exactly how you come to your conclusions because you never break scripture down to show how you come to them. So, I'm left guessing as to how exactly you come to your conclusions.

I'm happy to explain once I understand what your questions are. Until then I would have to speculate as to what you know or don't know with respect to my views. For example, how much do you know about what I call "the Jewish Hope?" Do you have any sense, from OT Prophecy, as to what Israel's eschatological hope was?

If so, then you would automatically know what I'm talking about. Paul is referring to that, and assumed his readers knew it. Obviously many don't today. Replacement Theology has all but erased it or marginalized it to such a degree that it is effectively ignored. But I can explain it if you need me to do that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, it's not dishonest. If it doesn't apply to you then that makes me happy. But generally, many Amills I've dealt with have depreciated the idea that Israel can come to Christ as a nation. In fact, it seems to have caused them to believe we should all hate the State and reject the notion of any nation adopting Christianity.

You're talking in terms of an entire nation here. But, do they believe that all Israelites have the opportunity to come to Christ individually? If they didn't then I would have a serious problem with that. If they do, then I have no problem with their perspective.

Just my experience, brother. It encourages me if you don't agree with them! I'm aware that my own personal experiences are limited.

Again, does their perspective of the nation as a whole reflect their perspective of the individuals of that nation? I think you might be being a bit unfair to some of them just because they don't have the same national perspective that you do.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You're talking in terms of an entire nation here. But, do they believe that all Israelites have the opportunity to come to Christ individually? If they didn't then I would have a serious problem with that. If they do, then I have no problem with their perspective.

Again, does their perspective of the nation as a whole reflect their perspective of the individuals of that nation? I think you might be being a bit unfair to some of them just because they don't have the same national perspective that you do.

Thank you. I really respect that...honestly! Let me just say that I'm responding to relatively-recent attacks I've seen being made on Jews by some in these forums. And it is largely due to their Replacement Theology, which of course they believe is a term of contempt and completely deny.

But it isn't a term of contempt from my pov, but only an abbreviated description of what I see is rejection of the possibility of full national salvation, whether for Israel or for any nation. It is, in effect, rejection of the whole idea of a Christian State!

This in itself is dangerous, I feel, since God called Israel to be just that--a nation of faith. The only alternative that I can see is a pagan nation, an Islamic nation, or some kind of vague pluralistic nation?

But Amills are, by nature, Replacement Theologians, as I use the term in a non-confrontive way. I was RT at one time, myself, and accepted the eschatology of such.

Based on my own studies and influences, I've gone over to Premillism. I find the Biblical Prophets to be supportive of a future Messianic Age, replete with a full national restoration of Israel, along with many other nations. That is, as I've said many times, the Abrahamic promises.

To be fair to you and to all Amills, I do recognize that most of you would welcome Christian conversion from the Jews. It's just that you don't expect it to happen in mass, and so find yourselves, often, depreciating the possibility, and in effect, discouraging it, though I'm sure you wouldn't characterize it that way.

I certainly don't think Amills are non-evangelical with respect to the Jews. But in furthering the anti-Semitic-type rhetoric, it actually frightens Jews away from Christianity.

If this isn't you, I'll happily remove you from my thinking about Amills in general! :)

 

[WPM]

All who were judged ended up dead. You can call that grace and mercy.

You are digging a deeper hole for yourself. You are totally contradicting yourself.

If that was the case then then it would be the case with the total and climactic destruction that accompanies Jesus return.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, Paul spoke of the initial salvation of Christ, after his Cross, as well as of the future national salvation of Israel. Two different things, in my opinion.

I don't see any basis for believing that.

The "grafting in" certainly was not initially about the future salvation of national Israel. But it led up to it.

What was it initially about then? And how are you coming to the conclusion that it would ever be about anything else?

As Gentiles were grafted into Israel's faith, initially, so in the future Israel will be allowed back into the family of faith.

Allowed back in the future? Do you believe that any Israelites have been not allowed the opportunity to be grafted in over the past almost 2,000 years? Do you not believe that God has always wanted all people, including all Israelites, to repent?

At the time Paul was writing this there were not, as yet, any Christian nations. The only nation of God was Israel at that time.

Your perspective just boggles my mind. I do not believe that Paul had entire nations in mind at all when he was talking about branches being grafted in to the olive tree because of faith. He was talking about individuals there when he talked about branches being grafted in. He could not have possibly been talking about nations because he indicated that some of Israel was cut off of the olive tree (unbelieving branches) and some remained (believers). If he was talking about nations then he would have talked about the entire nation of Israel being hardened and cut off, but he didn't. He talked about the remnant of Israel who were saved as well.

And so, Paul depicted Gentiles coming to salvation as being grafted onto the tree of Israel in the ideal sense of Israel's call being to be a nation of faith. But ultimately, Jesus said the Kingdom would be taken from Israel and given to a Gentile nation, which I believe was the Roman State after Theodosius.

Huh? He did not say that the kingdom would be taken from the nation of Israel. He said it would be taken from Israelites like the Pharisees and scribes who rejected Him. It was not taken from the apostles, Paul, and other Israelite believers. And what is this about the kingdom being given to the Roman state? So, it wasn't given to Gentiles from other nations? Of course it was, so why are you acting as if it was only given to one earthly nation? No, it was given to the spiritual nation of Israel that Peter wrote about in 1 Peter 2. We are the holy spiritual nation of believers that belong to God. The ones who belong to Christ.

And so, Gentiles no longer need to be grafted onto the "tree of Israel," particularly since Israel ceased to be a nation in the land of Israel after Paul's time. That was just a way of expressing how Israel had faith first, and Gentiles had to adapt to them, instead of remaining pagan nations.

Gentiles no longer need to be grafted in? What are you talking about? Gentiles have been grafted in for almost 2,000 years now and continue to be grafted in today. There is no indication whatsoever in Romans 11 that Paul was talking about nations being grafted in. Nations don't have faith (or the lack thereof), individuals do.

I'm happy to explain once I understand what your questions are. Until then I would have to speculate as to what you know or don't know with respect to my views. For example, how much do you know about what I call "the Jewish Hope?" Do you have any sense, from OT Prophecy, as to what Israel's eschatological hope was?

It really doesn't matter what their hope was because they often misinterpreted OT prophecy just as many do still today. The NT clarifies what the Jews (and all people) should be hoping for and looking forward to, which is "the new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells" (2 Peter 3:13).

If so, then you would automatically know what I'm talking about. Paul is referring to that, and assumed his readers knew it. Obviously many don't today. Replacement Theology has all but erased it or marginalized it to such a degree that it is effectively ignored. But I can explain it if you need me to do that?

I don't. And you know I hate that term "Replacement Theology" and asked you not to use it when talking to me. But, here you are using it again. Am I asking too much for you to not use it when talking to me, Randy? Use it all you want otherwise. Just not when talking to me. Is that too hard for you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are digging a deeper hole for yourself. You are totally contradicting yourself.

If that was the case then then it would be the case with the total and climactic destruction that accompanies Jesus return.

Right. Somehow destroying the world in Noah's day was a case of grace and mercy but doing so when Christ returns is not? This is nothing new, though. He contradicts himself often. He clearly has no idea of what he's talking about. Ever.