Revelation - chapters 19 and 20

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Davidpt

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Because we have a different interpretation of those verses than you do

Does the earth have a bottomless pit?

The bottomless pit is obviously connected to the earth. After all, look at Revelation 9, for instance. The one in verse 1 is not falling from heaven to the moon or something, then opening the pit on the moon. The earth is what is in view. The locusts, whatever they are, they come out of the earth, out of the bottomless pit. What could be meant by bottomless is that the pit is so deep that it would be impossible for anyone on the surface of the earth to discover it's depths. IOW, it is bottomless per our perspective via we dwelling on the surface of the earth and not that it is literally bottomless.
 
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CTK

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lol, the army Christ kills is on the Earth so it is obvious that the context is Christ leaving heaven and coming to the air/sky of the earth where he kills people on the ground.

Likewise in Rev 20, and angel leaves heaven and comes to the Earth to imprison satan. In both the destination is the Earth. Why does Amill even deny these very obvious things?

This is certainly a very difficult set of verses to unpack and interpret. I don't understand how Satan, the beast and the false prophet can be thrown into the lake of fire, leaving those alive in the millenium to continue without any deception or spritual attacks - and then, to find that he is again released to deceive and destroy. But the beast and the false prophet are NOT released at the end of the millenium, meaning, satan does not have his physical beast, false prophets and their followers to decieve the believers. Therefore, perhaps they are not brought forward because the believers on the earth during the millenium have been given a glorified body and therefore there is no purpose in the "physical or earthy" beast or false prophets. Now, satan can attempt to go directly to the believers given their glorified presence. This then might be purposeful since this would place those believers living in the millenium in the exact same place that Adam was when he was in the Garden (full circle). This time, only satan is released from the abyss to try and tempt and decieve those in the millenium just as he did with Adam but he will fail this time, and then God would quickly send him back to the lake of fire forever.

So the release of satan is not a battle but a necessary step that brings us back to the Garden before the fall and God destroys satan. This is the only / best thought I could put together ... but what happened in the beginning will be restored at the end and many times I find that these future events - like in Daniel and now in Revelation mirror those in the Old Testament.
 

TribulationSigns

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Incorrect as usual. Christ and his army do come down to the air of the Earth, and Christ does kill people on the ground. Read Rev 19.

No. Who are the fowls in heaven? God is not talking about literal birds here at all. Compare Scripture with Scripture.

Matthew 24:27-29
  • "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
  • For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
  • Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
Luk 17:34-37

  • I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
  • Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
  • Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
  • And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Lightning is often a synonym for God's judgment. And it's not the literal Sun going dark, nor the Moon darkened or turning to blood, nor are physical stars falling to this earth (as if they could, and be a SIGN), but spiritually God's light in HIS HOUSE (church) has gone out, and the blood of the false prophets is required. The restraint of iniquity has been taken out of the way where it (Matthew 24:12) abounds. Why would some listen to those claiming Christ is still within the dead Church? It is because they are deceived, being unfaithful and unrepentant. They call themselves the body of Christ, they have a name that lives, but they are dead. Bottom line, Christ is not hidden, so that if you don't see Him, don't believe those who claim that He is still quietly among them winking at their sins. For where you find the carcase (dead body) is where you will find God's judgment of eagles gathered together unto these Kings of the earth. The eagles here are the fowls in heaven (The kingdom of heaven on Earth - Church). Selah.

Revelation 19:17-19
  • "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
  • That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
  • And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

That speaks of God's judgment upon the dead body, the fallen great city, that great Harlot that shall rise no more. Christ is not there anymore, so that when people claim He is, and you don't see Him, believe it not! For the time has come when he who retrain, has been taken out of the midst (2nd Thessalonians 2:7). And the Eagles represent the Elects who have fled from unfaithful church when they see abomination of desolation where they prophesy judgment upon her from standing afar off. THe judgment of the Church, as I believe is taking place right now is actually part of Christ's second Coming which is not visible yet until her hour of judgment is finished, then He will appear in the air to gather all Elect to the air. So again, nothing is said about Christ and his Saints coming to Earth as you think.
 

ewq1938

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Because we have a different interpretation of those verses than you do

Does the earth have a bottomless pit?

Is a thousand years more or less than a thousand years?
 

ewq1938

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There won't be any survivors when Jesus returns, all the unsaved mortals are "Destroyed"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Why quote a verse saying people in Sodom died when you already know the fire was not global and did not kill everyone? Rev 19 promises survivors will exist and be ruled over past the events of Armageddon.
 

ewq1938

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I see that the world has been renewed with the new administration in place.

Tell them they are doing a terrible job because this so called re-newed world is as bad or worse than ever. Oddly enough, the bible does show the world getting worse before the real renewal so this is the same world that has ever been. We are awaiting any concept of a renewal.
 

ewq1938

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This is certainly a very difficult set of verses to unpack and interpret. I don't understand how Satan, the beast and the false prophet can be thrown into the lake of fire, leaving those alive in the millenium to continue without any deception or spritual attacks - and then, to find that he is again released to deceive and destroy. But the beast and the false prophet are NOT released at the end of the millenium, meaning, satan does not have his physical beast, false prophets and their followers to decieve the believers.

When the beast and FP are cast into the LOF, satan is not cast there with them. He is cast into the pit, a separate place. He is released from there and shortly is cast into the LOF where the beast and FP already were.
 

ewq1938

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So again, nothing is said about Christ and his Saints coming to Earth as you think.

The bible shows differently. Christ does come to the Earth from heaven in Rev 19 and an angel does come from heaven to Earth in Rev 20.
 

ewq1938

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THe judgment of the Church, as I believe is taking place right now is actually part of Christ's second Coming which is not visible yet until her hour of judgment is finished, then He will appear in the air to gather all Elect to the air. So again, nothing is said about Christ and his Saints coming to Earth as you think.


You contradict yourself.

You speak of a future visible second coming, and appearing in the air (which is the air of the Earth) but somehow manage to deny that Christ comes to the Earth. The air is still the Earth as in leaving heaven and NOT GOING TO MARS but going to Earth, in the air OF THE EARTH. He is visible in the air!! At this time he is in the air and not on the ground but that has been my position on Rev 19 and Armageddon all along. Christ is in the air at that time but he is in the Earth's air which is at the Earth as his destination.
 

TribulationSigns

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You contradict yourself.

You speak of a future visible second coming, and appearing in the air (which is the air of the Earth) but somehow manage to deny that Christ comes to the Earth. The air is still the Earth as in leaving heaven and NOT GOING TO MARS but going to Earth, in the air OF THE EARTH. He is visible in the air!! At this time he is in the air and not on the ground but that has been my position on Rev 19 and Armageddon all along. Christ is in the air at that time but he is in the Earth's air which is at the Earth as his destination.

LOL.

We will meet the Lord in the air, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord." From that point, the first heaven and the first Earth will pass away. We will enter a new heaven and a new Earth for eternity. So, no, we won't be coming down to have our feet stand upon this cursed Earth at the Second Coming. I am aware of the premillennial doctrine that states Christ and His army must touch down Earth for a future physical thousand-year kingdom. However, I disagree with that flawed interpretation.

Have a good night!
 

ewq1938

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LOL.

We will meet the Lord in the air, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


The air of this Earth though. I said that of Christ in Rev 19, and similar of an angel in Rev 20. Both come from heaven to this Earth because Earth is the destination but you disagreed but I was right all along. Not a surprise there.
 
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FearTheLord

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Well, I am now nlooking into chapters 19 and 20...... and even without looking back to other relevant verses in both the old and the new testament, it is extremely difficult to understand the timing of His return, the 1000 years - symbolic or literal, whether it is on earth or in heaven, and how can anyone who has been with Christ for those 1000 years even consider the words that come out of the mouth of satan when he is released for a short time? This has got to be symbolic and at this time, very difficult to put together.... and once again, it is without considering the other verses outside of Revelation. Does anyone have thoughts on these events, their timing and how anyone could possibly be tempted by Satan after being with God?
Go back to the Old Testament (Deut 29-30, Ezekiel 36-39, Joel 2, etc.). The 1,000-year reign must be a literal reign on earth because it's tied to the covenant God made with Israel in Moab (Deut 29-30). It was a completely separate covenant than the covenant at Sinai/Horeb.

So all these subsequent Old Testament prophecies about Israel's literal restoration tie back to Deut 29-30, and the 1,000-year reign is the allotted time for that to happen.

People will be easily deceived at that point because only those who are already resurrected will have the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit will be poured out again after Satan's final rebellion (Joel 2).
 

Truth7t7

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Though that appears possible to you that those can be parallel accounts let's not forget this one thing. satan does the exact same thing twice but at different times, he deceives the nations twice. And the following proves it.

1) before the thousand years satan is deceiving the nations. And 2) below proves it.

2) during the thousand years satan is no longer deceiving the nations.

3) after the thousand years satan is once again deceiving the nations.

1) and 3) equal two different times satan deceives the nations. Which then could mean there is a battle at the end of 1) just prior to the beginning of 2). And then there is another battle during 3) after that of 2).

IOW, initially, meaning 1), satan is deceiving the nations which then leads to a battle at the end. Meaning what is recorded in Revelation 19, for one. Which then leads to the beginning of the millennium following this battle, meaning 2).

The millennium then begins, meaning 2), and satan is no longer deceiving the nations because he is bound in the pit instead, and that the beast and fp have been cast into the LOF at the end of 1)

Next 2) is eventually over and that 3) begins. And it begins with satan deceiving the nations again, which then leads to another battle.

What must be asked is this since there is obviously a thousand years between that of when satan deceives the nations again. If there is a battle involving 3) which leads to satan getting cast into the LOF, thus he is no longer deceiving the nations, how could there also not be a battle at the end of 1) leading to satan no longer deceiving the nations, which then leads to 2) at the time?

How can 1) and 3) be involving the same battle that leads to satan no longer deceiving the nations if there is a thousand years between 1) and 3)? Or, how can at the end of 1) it doesn't involve a battle, but at the end of 3) it does? Doesn't both 1) and 3) lead to satan no longer deceiving the nations?

We already know per Amil, at least we Premils know, that 2) is not even true since nations are still being deceived and have never stopped being deceived for the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils insist is meaning 2). Except if 2) is really meaning the last 2000 years as Amil insist, it would mean nations are no longer being deceived rather than nations are still being deceived. IOW, Amil contradicts 2) because in the real world it is plain as day that nations are still being deceived the past 2000 years.

Amil then looks basically like this. Before the thousand years satan is deceiving the nations. During the thousand years satan is still deceiving the nations. After the thousand years satan is still deceiving the nations. Yet we are to believe that Amil is the correct view and that it agrees with 1), 2), and 3) above. Ok, if you say so. Reality says otherwise though, since it is plainly obvious nations are still being deceived the past 2000 years. Something that is not even supposed to be possible during that of 2).
Not one scripture referenced to support your claims made, Thus says David "Not"!
 

Taken

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Well, I am now nlooking into chapters 19 and 20...... and even without looking back to other relevant verses in both the old and the new testament, it is extremely difficult to understand the timing of His return, the 1000 years - symbolic or literal, whether it is on earth or in heaven, and how can anyone who has been with Christ for those 1000 years even consider the words that come out of the mouth of satan when he is released for a short time? This has got to be symbolic and at this time, very difficult to put together.... and once again, it is without considering the other verses outside of Revelation. Does anyone have thoughts on these events, their timing and how anyone could possibly be tempted by Satan after being with God?

Revelations is a complex Book requiring a familiarity with Biblical history and a dedication to Revelations for a time consuming intense study.

Glory to God
Taken
 
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Taken

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[QUOTE="CTK, post: 1983724, member: 25925"
… the 1000 years - symbolic or literal, whether it is on earth or in heaven, and how can anyone who has been with Christ for those 1000 years even consider the words that come out of the mouth of satan when he is released for a short time?
[/QUOTE]

Literal 1,000 years.

During the 1,000 year reign…The population of mortals begins relatively small but is blessed with the ability for expansion and fertile lands and establishing…towns, cities, nations without wars, commerce, and governors who serve according to Gods word…

In brief…generations multiply…nations and the people thereof prosper…

And nothing new…natural human nature…Greed, Jealousies, Conniving…seeps in…
People become Comfortable, Lazy, Ignorant.
Less and Less feeling the want or need for The Lords Guidance in Governors, or the people they serve…

In other words, the Nations once again become indoctrinated and conditioned to fall for the something for nothing entitlement speech to tickle their ears…
And The stage is set for Satans return and Eager ears to hop on his trail of cunning deception antics….and stand in alliance to Come against the Lords Kingdom.

Satan’s onslaught Occurs…for a “little” season.
Seasons are generally 3 months duration, thus I suspect Nations coming against the Lords Kingdom to be Weeks organizing, traveling and quick demise.

Whoops…Having strayed too far off course…they will likely be utterly ignorant of The Defense of the power of God…
Yikes…

Rev 20:
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Glory to God
Taken
 

grafted branch

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This then might be purposeful since this would place those believers living in the millenium in the exact same place that Adam was when he was in the Garden (full circle). This time, only satan is released from the abyss to try and tempt and decieve those in the millenium just as he did with Adam but he will fail this time, and then God would quickly send him back to the lake of fire forever.
If you want to go in that direction, keep in mind that Adam wasn’t deceived.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Some people interpret this verse as Adam knowingly taking on sin in order to cleave to his wife.
 

grafted branch

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Satan’s onslaught Occurs…for a “little” season.
Seasons are generally 3 months duration, thus I suspect Nations coming against the Lords Kingdom to be Weeks organizing, traveling and quick demise.

Whoops…Having strayed too far off course…they will likely be utterly ignorant of The Defense of the power of God…
Yikes…

Rev 20:
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
How can that be though? Wouldn’t people in the millennium be keeping track of time and know the exact date that the millennium will end and Satan be loosed?

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If Satan is completely incapacitated during the millennium then the light of the gospel is shining on everyone and Revelation 20:9 is part of the gospel. From Matthew 24:24 we know it’s impossible to deceive the elect, so I suppose the number of unsaved during the millennium would be as the sands of the sea yet they would know without a doubt that they will be devoured by fire, right?

Currently most people don’t act this way. I know without a doubt if I light a match and hold my hand directly over it I will be burned. I don’t do that because my basic instincts tell me I will harm myself. We could say some people do currently harm themselves but that only happens because they are deceived.

I can currently know without a doubt that when I light a match, after that point in time, I have the potential to be burned and I take the necessary steps to prevent that. Why can’t people in the millennium, who are in number as the sands of the sea, take the necessary step of becoming a believer prior to the end of the millennium? After all they would no doubt be keeping track of how many days are left till the millennium was over. People can still become saved during the millennium, right?
 
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CTK

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If you want to go in that direction, keep in mind that Adam wasn’t deceived.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Some people interpret this verse as Adam knowingly taking on sin in order to cleave to his wife.
Thanks, and I understand it began with Eve but I believe this intepretation might be valid... In the beginning nether Adam nor Eve had any knowledge of sin, evil or deception. It had not entered into the world. And I would imagine there would not be too much deception needed for a [perhaps] beautiful serpent to speak eloguently to Eve and deceive her - again, she knew nothing of evil or consequences and had no reason [perhaps] not to trust the serpent. Again, at the time, there was no sin or darkness in the world and she would not have any understanding at all of the consequences. But they both disobeyed God and the rest is history.

However, if we were to assume that God had given glorified bodies and we were reigning with Him, and therefore be physically and spriitually in a position like Adam was before the fall, we would also, unlike Adam or Eve, have 6000 years of history that we experineced and recorded in the Scriptures realizing who this deceiver was and is and there is no way we would CHOOSE to be deceived. Both groups would be in their glorified bodies and both would be be with Jesus, both groups would be able to CHOOSE, however, I don't believe we would want ot go through any of that again knowing what sin is, the consequences, etc. .... Adam and Eve had no scripture or experience with this thing!
 
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Marty fox

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The bottomless pit is obviously connected to the earth. After all, look at Revelation 9, for instance. The one in verse 1 is not falling from heaven to the moon or something, then opening the pit on the moon. The earth is what is in view. The locusts, whatever they are, they come out of the earth, out of the bottomless pit. What could be meant by bottomless is that the pit is so deep that it would be impossible for anyone on the surface of the earth to discover it's depths. IOW, it is bottomless per our perspective via we dwelling on the surface of the earth and not that it is literally bottomless.
The bottomless pit is obviously connected to the earth. After all, look at Revelation 9, for instance. The one in verse 1 is not falling from heaven to the moon or something, then opening the pit on the moon. The earth is what is in view. The locusts, whatever they are, they come out of the earth, out of the bottomless pit. What could be meant by bottomless is that the pit is so deep that it would be impossible for anyone on the surface of the earth to discover it's depths. IOW, it is bottomless per our perspective via we dwelling on the surface of the earth and not that it is literally bottomless.
Or it’s symbolic for a spiritual state