Revelation - chapters 19 and 20

[ewq1938]

Which interpretation is the correct one? It’s not contextually clear else we wouldn’t have the various words inserted after the word “prophet”.

They all have the same meaning. satan goes where the first two already went.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You didn't, and can't dispute what I said because what I said is true. All you have is a one liner denial, devoid of any evidence.

I can.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

I was saying that both are wrong because the verses do not say that Christ will return to a soil called Earth.

Revelation 19 shows that Christ and all the Saints ("the dead in Christ" - those who have physically died and gone to heaven) will come down to the AIR where the alive and remain Saints will meet up with them. Nothing is said that they will end up touching down on Earth.

1Th 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 20 describes Christ as a messenger (not an angel) who came down from heaven to bind Satan and spiritually restrain him from deceiving the world. Nothing is said about Christ coming to Earth to bind Satan.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The beast and FP are cast into the fire in Rev 19 but satan isn't. instead, he is bound and imprisoned for a thousand years. Afterward, satan will be cast into the fire where the other two had previously be cast. It's contextually clear the two go there first, and much later satan goes to the same place. The events of Armageddon etc do take place BEFORE the events of Rev 20.

Rev 19:17-20
(17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
(18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
(19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:6-11
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Each verse is talking about something else, not continuing the same episode as the previous one. The verse 6 is talking about the reign through the New Covenant era. The verse 7 talks about Satan being loosed afterward. The verse 8 talks about how he then goes out to deceive the nations The verse 9 talks about how they attacked the Church. The verse 10 talks about their judgment. The verse 11 then talks about the white throne judgment "after" that. So I don't think you can dogmatically say this shows it is Judgment Day as indicated by the verses that follow. I would need more proof or evidence than that, because the whole chapter goes from Christ's first advent, death, church, the judgment of the Church, and white throne judgment. I'm assuming we agree that God sent them against the camp of the saints as judgment?

Rev 17:16-17
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Also, keep in mind God said:

Rev 20:9
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This fire from God devoured "them" and then afterward, the devil that deceived "them" was cast into the lake of fire, and then the books were opened and the people were judged. Nothing is said about Satan and the beast/false prophet each being cast into lake of fire by 1,000 years apart.

 

[Davidpt]

Smith’s Literal

And the devil deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where are the wild beast and false prophet, and they shall be tortured day and night for ever and ever.

ESV

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

KJV

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Which interpretation is the correct one? It’s not contextually clear else we wouldn’t have the various words inserted after the word “prophet”.

It shouldn't matter. Because if we render it 'are' or 'were' it still places the beast and fp in the LOF before satan is cast into it.

In Revelation 19 there are a cpl of things to note. The LOF is clearly in view. What we don't see anywhere in that chapter is this. We don't see one mention of satan. That chapter tells us what John saw at the time. He obviously didn't see satan getting cast into the LOF at the time, otherwise he would have mentioned it, obviously. After all, satan getting cast into the LOF is a major event. Yet he didn't mention it. Why? Because he would be lying to us if he did. He would be saying he saw an event that never took place at the time, satan getting cast into the LOF with the beast and fp.

If we insist satan is also cast into the LOF when the beast and fp are, we have added to the text, not agreed with the text. Prove me wrong. Show in Revelation 19 where it even mentions satan and that John said he also saw satan getting cast into the LOF at the time.

 

[Davidpt]

Rev 19:17-20
(17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
(18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
(19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:6-11
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Each verse is talking about something else, not continuing the same episode as the previous one. The verse 6 is talking about the reign through the New Covenant era. The verse 7 talks about Satan being loosed afterward. The verse 8 talks about how he then goes out to deceive the nations The verse 9 talks about how they attacked the Church. The verse 10 talks about their judgment. The verse 11 then talks about the white throne judgment "after" that. So I don't think you can dogmatically say this shows it is Judgment Day as indicated by the verses that follow. I would need more proof or evidence than that, because the whole chapter goes from Christ's first advent, death, church, the judgment of the Church, and white throne judgment. I'm assuming we agree that God sent them against the camp of the saints as judgment?

Rev 17:16-17
(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Also, keep in mind God said:

Rev 20:9
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This fire from God devoured "them" and then afterward, the devil that deceived "them" was cast into the lake of fire, and then the books were opened and the people were judged. Nothing is said about Satan and the beast/false prophet each being cast into lake of fire by 1,000 years apart.

If the millennium is meaning before the 2nd coming, then who are these in verse 8 after the millennium, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? Meaning what is their role during the millennium? After all, they just don't show up out of nowhere all of a sudden. Logic says, if they are present after the millennium, they are also present during the millennium. What then are they doing during the millennium that changes once satan is loosed? Why are they not rebelling during the millennium, but are rebelling after the millennium? What is it about the millennium they like, the fact they are not rebelling at the time? What is it about after the millennium that they dislike, the fact they are rebelling?

 

[TribulationSigns]

If the millennium is meaning before the 2nd coming, then who are these in verse 8 after the millennium, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? Meaning what is their role during the millennium? After all, they just don't show up out of nowhere all of a sudden. Logic says, if they are present after the millennium, they are also present during the millennium.

Okay. It's like God saying the mystery of iniquity already existed in the world at the time of Paul's writing, but would be greatly revealed in the end times. Or like Christ saying we would always have tribulations, but at the time of the end there will be great tribulation. Likewise, the mark of the beast existed in the world while the church was in building during the millennial period, because there were always antichrists and false prophets (who are the ones giving it) even then. They have always existed in the world as adversaries in the church and were out to deceive God's people. But this spirit was "restrained" while Satan was bound. Once loosed, iniquity increases and runs rampant deceiving God's people, especially the professed Christians, all over the world. Yes, the increase of false prophets of the Spirit of Satan are loosed after the millennial reign as a judgment upon the unfaithful house of God. But only after all Israel are saved/sealed. "AFTER" the Millennial reign.

Revelation 20:7-8

• "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
• And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

That spirit called Satan was doing this "before" He was bound for 1000 years, and it's what He does again "after" He is loosed when the love of God grows cold. He is bringing those of the church into his snare. Nothing has changed except He has been loosed to INCREASE it throughout the church again. Satan deceived and marked the children of God before He was bound, and He marks and deceives them after he is loosed. As with the Old Covenant external congregation, so with the New Covenant external congregation. Because we are no better than Israel was. Only a remnant of the external body is saved, the rest are deceived in this apostasy. Therefore, the beloved city is spiritual JErsualem, the Church. That is the encampment of the Saints. It "IS" where the spiritual battle of Armaggeddon truly takes place. Not in the Middle East. The "army" of the number of whom is as the sand of the sea are false prophets, false christs, and all professed Christians by them because their spirit of Satan no longer restrained by God will be able to wage war, overcome, and kill (silence) the faithful testimony of The Saints in the church until Christ returns. The battle will "NOT" be about physical countries, physical warfare, or physical city in the Middle East.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I realize it is a bit off topic but it is related to the millennial and how Satan is loosed and bring the army of unsaved people against the Camps of the Saints (churches) prior to the Second Coming.:

Revelation 20:3

• "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

And low and behold, when the spirit Satan is loosed of God, he goes out in power to rule over people who have not yet sealed by God (the same thing he was doing before he was bound), which is consistent with the prophesy of Daniel. This little horn signifying reign for a little season or time.

Revelation 20:7-8

• "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
• And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Compare scripture with scripture. After deceiving and gathering the gentiles/nations he went up against the camp of the saints, who symbolically are the stars or host of heaven.

Daniel 8:9-10

• "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
• And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."

I would think it would be obvious why I say the "little horn" is a symbol to represent the "little power" Satan has to rule over the nations (Same meaning as Gentiles - - unsaved people, not geopolitical nations) near the end, to bring them up against God's people to trample them under foot.

 

[Marty fox]

You didn't, and can't dispute what I said because what I said is true. All you have is a one liner denial, devoid of any evidence.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

We can dispute what you said because the none of the verses that you provided have the word earth in them.

What John see is what's happening up in heaven

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The main word of your point (earth) is missing. If literal how can that word be missing?


If literal as you believe how can there be a bottomless pit? A pit has to have a bottom or else its a hole. The bottomless pit is symbolic to a spiritual condition.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If literal as you believe how can there be a bottomless pit? A pit has to have a bottom or else its a hole. The bottomless pit is symbolic to a spiritual condition.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Correct. Spiritual condition! It is a spiritual condition of man during the millennial because his spirit (of Satan) has been restrained so it will be easier for him to hear and receive the Gospel to be saved. But after Christ finishes building his Chruch with all Elect secured (Revelation 7:1-4), He will remove his restraining hand and you will see "Satan being revealed" in man meaning that people who have not yet sealed during the millennial kingdom will not be able to hear or be saved during the great tribulation period. This is why you have noticed more and more people are not responding to the Gospel positively today, haven't you? This is the spiritual condition that Satan has loosened! This has nothing to do with gathering the physical armies against national Israel at all! But the gathering of the deceived people against the camps of the Saints of believers who are still "alive and remain" at this moment. Christ's coming is very near because Satan will have power restored (little horn) to prevent people from being saved for a little season!

Selah.

 

[grafted branch]

It shouldn't matter. Because if we render it 'are' or 'were' it still places the beast and fp in the LOF before satan is cast into it.

It does matter, if the beast and false prophet were in the LOF, as in past tense, then it is possible to exit the LOF.

If we insist satan is also cast into the LOF when the beast and fp are, we have added to the text, not agreed with the text. Prove me wrong. Show in Revelation 19 where it even mentions satan and that John said he also saw satan getting cast into the LOF at the time.

In Revelation 13:2 the dragon gives the beast his power, seat, and authority. The next time we see the dragon is in Revelation 16:13 where the spirits of all three, dragon, beast, and false prophet, gather to battle. In Revelation 20:3 the dragon is cast into the bottomless pit, the next mention of him is when he is loosed, gathering to battle.

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

If Satan’s kingdom is brought to desolation through division then it makes sense that the beast and false prophet gather one group of people while the dragon gathers another group of people and that is the battle, with the sword/fire from heaven finishing off those remaining.

In Revelation 19:19 the word “against” <3326> is versatile, primarily denoting accompaniment or association, with, among, after. If we substitute the word “with” for the word “against”, Revelation 19:19 looks like this …



And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war with him that sat on the horse, and with his army.



This leads to the idea that the beast and false prophet are attempting to fight with Christ and His armies not against them and the battle would be against those that the dragon gathers in Revelation 20:8. This division could be why the storyline of the dragon and the storyline of the beast and false prophet are shown separately even though all three gather to battle and are cast into the LOF at the same time.

 

[Davidpt]

Okay. It's like God saying the mystery of iniquity already existed in the world at the time of Paul's writing, but would be greatly revealed in the end times. Or like Christ saying we would always have tribulations, but at the time of the end there will be great tribulation. Likewise, the mark of the beast existed in the world while the church was in building during the millennial period, because there were always antichrists and false prophets (who are the ones giving it) even then. They have always existed in the world as adversaries in the church and were out to deceive God's people. But this spirit was "restrained" while Satan was bound. Once loosed, iniquity increases and runs rampant deceiving God's people, especially the professed Christians, all over the world. Yes, the increase of false prophets of the Spirit of Satan are loosed after the millennial reign as a judgment upon the unfaithful house of God. But only after all Israel are saved/sealed. "AFTER" the Millennial reign.

Revelation 20:7-8

• "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
• And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

That spirit called Satan was doing this "before" He was bound for 1000 years, and it's what He does again "after" He is loosed when the love of God grows cold. He is bringing those of the church into his snare. Nothing has changed except He has been loosed to INCREASE it throughout the church again. Satan deceived and marked the children of God before He was bound, and He marks and deceives them after he is loosed. As with the Old Covenant external congregation, so with the New Covenant external congregation. Because we are no better than Israel was. Only a remnant of the external body is saved, the rest are deceived in this apostasy. Therefore, the beloved city is spiritual JErsualem, the Church. That is the encampment of the Saints. It "IS" where the spiritual battle of Armaggeddon truly takes place. Not in the Middle East. The "army" of the number of whom is as the sand of the sea are false prophets, false christs, and all professed Christians by them because their spirit of Satan no longer restrained by God will be able to wage war, overcome, and kill (silence) the faithful testimony of The Saints in the church until Christ returns. The battle will "NOT" be about physical countries, physical warfare, or physical city in the Middle East.

Finally something that makes sense to me coming from the Amil camp. That is the best interpretation I have heard to date coming out of the Amil camp. Too bad most other Amils are apparently opposed to your interpretation rather than being onboard with it. Amil might make more sense to some of the rest of us if they viewed some of these things like you do, that it involves the house of God and the great falling away.

BTW, if I ever switch to Amil someday I want you to be my teacher, not some of these other Amils that can't even make sense out of some of these things for us.

 

[Marty fox]

If the millennium is meaning before the 2nd coming, then who are these in verse 8 after the millennium, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? Meaning what is their role during the millennium? After all, they just don't show up out of nowhere all of a sudden. Logic says, if they are present after the millennium, they are also present during the millennium. What then are they doing during the millennium that changes once satan is loosed? Why are they not rebelling during the millennium, but are rebelling after the millennium? What is it about the millennium they like, the fact they are not rebelling at the time? What is it about after the millennium that they dislike, the fact they are rebelling?

They are present here on earth right now the unsaved.

Actually in your view that would be more of a question for you to answer.

 

[Davidpt]

It does matter, if the beast and false prophet were in the LOF, as in past tense, then it is possible to exit the LOF.

In that case, I fully agree, it matters. Good point. I just didn't have that in mind at the time because both 'are' and 'were' would be proving satan is not cast into the LOF when the beast and fp are. That was the only point I was focusing on at the time.

In Revelation 13:2 the dragon gives the beast his power, seat, and authority. The next time we see the dragon is in Revelation 16:13 where the spirits of all three, dragon, beast, and false prophet, gather to battle. In Revelation 20:3 the dragon is cast into the bottomless pit, the next mention of him is when he is loosed, gathering to battle.

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

If Satan’s kingdom is brought to desolation through division then it makes sense that the beast and false prophet gather one group of people while the dragon gathers another group of people and that is the battle, with the sword/fire from heaven finishing off those remaining.

In Revelation 19:19 the word “against” <3326> is versatile, primarily denoting accompaniment or association, with, among, after. If we substitute the word “with” for the word “against”, Revelation 19:19 looks like this …



And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war with him that sat on the horse, and with his army.



This leads to the idea that the beast and false prophet are attempting to fight with Christ and His armies not against them and the battle would be against those that the dragon gathers in Revelation 20:8. This division could be why the storyline of the dragon and the storyline of the beast and false prophet are shown separately even though all three gather to battle and are cast into the LOF at the same time.

If I'm going to be intellectually honest, since there is such a thing as Scripture interpreting Scripture, such as you attempting to do here, maybe Revelation 19 doesn't need to say satan is cast into the LOF at the time because we can already conclude that by interpreting Scripture with Scripture? I haven't changed my mind yet. I'm just trying to be somewhat objective here, though.

 

[grafted branch]

I just didn't have that in mind at the time because both 'are' and 'were' would be proving satan is not cast into the LOF when the beast and fp are.

Not necessarily, “are” could mean “are cast in” and “were” could mean “were cast in”

 

[TribulationSigns]

BTW, if I ever switch to Amil someday I want you to be my teacher, not some of these other Amils that can't even make sense out of some of these things for us.

Okay. I want to clarify something there. I never seek, nor do I desire to have you or anyone else here follow me. I don't desire praise. If you have any for your understanding, give it to God, for I have done nothing. I've quoted God's Word, not TribulationSigns. I am here to teach based on my years of studying Scripture but the glory belongs to God.

Of course, not all Amills here agree with me over our interpretation difference. For example, 70AD, Papacy, the origin of Satan, Gog and Magog, etc. And that's okay. As I said often, the Lord judges (on our interpretations) and I am comfortable with it. :-)

 

[Davidpt]

They are present here on earth right now the undaved.

Actually in your view that would be more of a question for you to answer.

Not really, since there is Zechariah 14 to factor in. And that chapter shows that some are spared the plagues involving verse 12 and those coming against Jerusalem. Not one person is ever going to convince me that the 2nd coming of Christ and what happens after He returns is not in view in that chapter. Of course it is. The following can't even be fulfilled until the 7th trumpet sounds first. Nor can it be fulfilled until after 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is no longer true.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

This is initially being fulfilled when the following is fulfilled.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


And Zechariah 14:9 certainly isn't already fulfilled while this verse below is being fulfilled, since it would equal 2 Lords of the earth rather than just one like Zechariah 14:9 plainly says.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


IOW, these 2 passages below contradict each other if they are both true at the same time.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Not to mention, the former below contradicts the latter below if the former below is already true before the latter below is true first.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Davidpt]

Okay. I want to clarify something there. I never seek, nor do I desire to have you or anyone else here follow me. I don't desire praise. If you have any for your understanding, give it to God, for I have done nothing. I've quoted God's Word, not TribulationSigns. I am here to teach based on my years of studying Scripture but the glory belongs to God.

Of course, not all Amills here agree with me over our interpretation difference. For example, 70AD, Papacy, the origin of Satan, Gog and Magog, etc. And that's okay. As I said often, the Lord judges (on our interpretations) and I am comfortable with it. :-)

I realize that and the reason being is that you are humble. And I can appreciate that about you. Nothing wrong with being humble.

 

[Marty fox]

Correct. Spiritual condition! It is a spiritual condition of man during the millennial because his spirit (of Satan) has been restrained so it will be easier for him to hear and receive the Gospel to be saved. But after Christ finishes building his Chruch with all Elect secured (Revelation 7:1-4), He will remove his restraining hand and you will see "Satan being revealed" in man meaning that people who have not yet sealed during the millennial kingdom will not be able to hear or be saved during the great tribulation period. This is why you have noticed more and more people are not responding to the Gospel positively today, haven't you? This is the spiritual condition that Satan has loosened! This has nothing to do with gathering the physical armies against national Israel at all! But the gathering of the deceived people against the camps of the Saints of believers who are still "alive and remain" at this moment. Christ's coming is very near because Satan will have power restored (little horn) to prevent people from being saved for a little season!

Selah.

I basically agree with all that you said but I do believe the reason for satan's release is the conforming of the church (which we are seeing happening today).

God spreads the gospel through the Holy Spirit within the people of the church thus when the church conforms it contorts and restricts the power of the gospel.

We need to look to the bible for the answer and look back in the bible and see what was the only time and what was the reason God destroyed the world in the past. God destroyed the world in the past with the flood not because the world was so evil it always has and always will be evil, God destroyed the world because the faithful before the cross conformed and came down to just one man Noah (Genesis 4-5). The line of the faithful in the world would of ended when Noah died.

Thus the reason God will destroy the world with fire in the future is the same reason God destroyed the world with the flood in the past.

 

[TribulationSigns]

We need to look to the bible for the answer and look back in the bible and see what was the only time and what was the reason God destroyed the world in the past. God destroyed the world in the past with the flood not because the world was so evil it always has and always will be evil, God destroyed the world because the faithful before the cross conformed and came down to just one man Noah (Genesis 4-5). The line of the faithful in the world would of ended when Noah died.

Thus the reason God will destroy the world with fire in the future is the same reason God destroyed the world with the flood in the past.

Correct. According to the context:

Gen 6:1-8
(1) And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
(2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
(3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
(4) There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
(5) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
(7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
(8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

The children or sons of God, taking the daughters of men to marry if not forsaking God's Word? Selah. And because of this disobedience, they were turned away from God by these people of the world. Of course they were forsaking God, and God brought judgment because of their wickedness in starting this evil thing of unequally yoking among God's people. That's the whole point of God telling us. He doesn't just say people became wicked, and He judged them. No, the "WHOLE" point God is making is that it was BECAUSE of the wicked actions of the "Sons of God" in forsaking His precepts (by marrying the unbelievers) and directly causing this worldwide wickedness. It was His People, His children, the sons of God, that did this!

...the "WHOLE" point!

Keep in mind, there are always two groups of sons of God. One is Chosen Elect. Another is professed believers. The sons of God who came after the daughters of men (unsaved women) are the unfaithful and rebellious children of God who did not obey God by unequally yoking with heathen women round about them. And they produced giants. What giants are they exactly? God is not talking about their sizes or heights. When they took wives of the un-saved daughters of the giants [nephil], the big or renowned people of that time. They gave birth to children who are SPIRITUALLY DIVIDED and became MIGHTY or FAMOUS champions. Someone who is famous, a protagonist. People who looking up to them and all the laws of God were left behind (sound familiar with church today?). That is what happens when you have children of God yoked with unbelievers. The seed is MINGLED with unbelief and there is a falling way from God because the spouse (having ungodly upbringing) doesn't have any desire to follow God's laws. The giants were NOT super beingins as is such a twisted form of eisegesis (not exegesis) that reads into the Scirpture assume that the sons of God were angels from heaven. Giants were NOT the product of angels mating. The whole idea is preposterous! No, they are giants because of their "great stature". Look at one of the false prophets of today for example. He is very famous and popular. He is the son of believing father and unbeliever mother, yet he learned from both sides. And as a result he preaches something that people like to hear that brings in more wickedness among them. This is how the giants did to the Sons of God in Noah's days. leaving Noah and his house not affected by it.

 

[Marty fox]

Correct. According to the context:

Gen 6:1-8
(1) And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
(2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
(3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
(4) There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
(5) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
(7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
(8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

The children or sons of God, taking the daughters of men to marry if not forsaking God's Word? Selah. And because of this disobedience, they were turned away from God by these people of the world. Of course they were forsaking God, and God brought judgment because of their wickedness in starting this evil thing of unequally yoking among God's people. That's the whole point of God telling us. He doesn't just say people became wicked, and He judged them. No, the "WHOLE" point God is making is that it was BECAUSE of the wicked actions of the "Sons of God" in forsaking His precepts (by marrying the unbelievers) and directly causing this worldwide wickedness. It was His People, His children, the sons of God, that did this!

...the "WHOLE" point!

Keep in mind, there are always two groups of sons of God. One is Chosen Elect. Another is professed believers. The sons of God who came after the daughters of men (unsaved women) are the unfaithful and rebellious children of God who did not obey God by unequally yoking with heathen women round about them. And they produced giants. What giants are they exactly? God is not talking about their sizes or heights. When they took wives of the un-saved daughters of the giants [nephil], the big or renowned people of that time. They gave birth to children who are SPIRITUALLY DIVIDED and became MIGHTY or FAMOUS champions. Someone who is famous, a protagonist. People who looking up to them and all the laws of God were left behind (sound familiar with church today?). That is what happens when you have children of God yoked with unbelievers. The seed is MINGLED with unbelief and there is a falling way from God because the spouse (having ungodly upbringing) doesn't have any desire to follow God's laws. The giants were NOT super beingins as is such a twisted form of eisegesis (not exegesis) that reads into the Scirpture assume that the sons of God were angels from heaven. Giants were NOT the product of angels mating. The whole idea is preposterous! No, they are giants because of their "great stature". For example, look at one of the false prophets of today for example. He is very famous and popular. He is the son of believing father and unbeliever mother, yet he learned from both sides. And as a result he preaches something that people like to hear that brings in more wickedness among them. This is how the giants did to the Sons of God in Noah's days. leaving Noah and his house not affected by it.

Yes I agree and I will repost my study on it shortly thanks