Revelation 9:13 - 200 million

[KUWN]

Ok, moving on to the 6th trumpet, there are so many symbols in these verses .... just one of them is the 200 million. Who do you folks say they represent? Thanks.

They are identified as demons later in this chapter. I don't think they represent anything, I think they were demons. Also, I take the number 200 million as the actual number of demons who came out of the Abyss.

 

[CTK]

They are identified as demons later in this chapter. I don't think they represent anything, I think they were demons. Also, I take the number 200 million as the actual number of demons who came out of the Abyss.

Really! Well, perhaps you would not mind interpreting these verses for me. It appears you treat these important verses as literal and not symbolic, so I would assume they are all treated literally.... it would be absolutely impossible to discern which are literal and which are symbolic should they be interpreted in both ways.... that would indeed lead to a very subjective series of interpretations... and this would be utter confusion - something God does not do. So, what is God telling us in these verses - literal or symbolic?


13Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19For [e]their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
20But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21And they did not repent of their murders or their [f]sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

[KUWN]

13Then the sixth angel (literal) sounded: And I heard a voice from the four (literal) horns (literal) of the golden altar (literal) which is before God (literal), 14saying to the sixth angel (literal) who had the trumpet (literal), “Release the four (literal)angels (literal) who are bound at the great river Euphrates (literal).” 15So the four angels (literal), who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year (literal), were released to kill (literal) a third (literal) of mankind..... you get the idea....

I allow symbolism within the literal hermeneutic, but not that much. Symbolism has no way of knowing what the symbolism stands for. It is open to many interpretations. Literal hermeneutics does not have to put up with that. For example, there is symbolism in the Psalms because of the type of literature it is.

I believe in the beasts in Revelation to be what John actually, literally saw. He saw beasts in the vision, like you might see in a dream.

 

[CTK]

I allow symbolism within the literal hermeneutic, but not that much. Symbolism has no way of knowing what the symbolism stands for. It is open to many interpretations. Literal hermeneutics does not have to put up with that. For example, there is symbolism in the Psalms because of the type of literature it is.

I believe in the beasts in Revelation to be what John actually, literally saw. He saw beasts in the vision, like you might see in a dream.

So who are the angels sitting at the Euphrates? Are they demonic or angelic?


16Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19For [e]their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.


1) 200 million army? What are they for? I thought the angels killed 1/3 of mankind? Are the horses literaly covered in these 3 colors with heads of lions? Did fire and smoke and brimstone come literally out of their mouths? Why horses and horseman? What happened to tanks and aircraft and submaries and destroyers and missiles? i imagine the Euphrates reference being dried up is necessary so this army can cross? Do you really believe any nation needs to wait for a river to dry up and attack with horses? But doesn't it specifially tell us the fire, smokd and brimstone are plagues? Power in the mouth and tails -- all literal? You get the idea....

So, if these are all literal then please write your interpretation of what is taking place within these verses?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don't think they represent anything, I think they were demons.

You "think?" Based on what Scripture support do you view Two Hundred Thousand Thousand as a multitude of Demons?

Also, I take the number 200 million as the actual number of demons who came out of the Abyss.

No. Not the actual number. The number has spiritual significance. The book of Revelation is full of symbolism. For example, the lamb in Revelation 5:7 has seven eyes. Does this mean we see a literal lamb with literal seven eyes? No! It is spiritual discernment. The lamb is Christ. The number 7 means totality or completeness of whatever is in view. Therefore, Christ sees everything. What about the beast with two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon? Literal? Of course not. Same thing with two hundred thousand thousand with appearance of horses, breastplates of fire, jacinth, brimstone, lions, mouths of fire and smoke and brimstone. It requires spiritual discernment to know what army this is. It will NOT be literal "demons" or "Chinese army". We need to compare Scirpture with Scirpture to find out which I don't see anyone doing this so far.

 

[Douggg]

13Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

The kjv reads differently....

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

The sixth angel sounds his trumpet. Then the voice says to the sixth angel to "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. "

So the sixth angel takes his vial of God's wrath and pours it out - Revelation 16:12. And the Euphrates is dried up. That loosens the four angels bound in the great river Euphrates. And makes way for the kings of the east to march toward Armageddon.

The four angels (obviously evil angels) assist and guide the kings of the east and their armies of 200,000,000 to kill a third of mankind on the way.

So there it is @CTK. All spelled out for you.

 

[TribulationSigns]

All spelled out for you.

No, it all spelled out wrong, Douggg.

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

First, do you know what is four horns of the golden altar refers to? And whose voice was it coming from the four horns? Humm?

The sixth angel sounds his trumpet. Then the voice says to the sixth angel to "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Did you already forget what does the number four signifies? The universality of something! The angels means messengers not angel with wings. And God obviously did not talk about physical river in the Middle East called "Euphrates" here. But a spiritual protection border between God's People Israel and the wicked people. Thus signifying that there is no longer any boundary between the wicked people and God's people Israel. They can now freely invade Israel as the border is gone. But only after all Elect has been sealed. Because God is patient to save every single soul that He had predestinated to be sealed. Thus He waits till that precise Hour, Day, Month, and Year, not willing that even one whom He had predestinated would not be saved.

2nd Peter 3:8-9

• "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
• The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

So by this we get a better understanding of the patience of God, His longsuffering in just why the Messengers were prepared and kept from their appointed task "until" the precise Hour, Day, Month, and Year. Selah!

And makes way for the kings of the east to march toward Armageddon.

There is no concept of the kings of the East "marching toward the Middle East for a physical battle of Armageddon." That idea is your personal interpretation based on false premillennial doctrine. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that the kings of the East will march toward Israel for Armageddon.

The kings of the East represent the Elect that was BEHIND the protected border line (spiritually river Euphrates). The Lord has prepared the way for the kings of the East to come out of the unfaithful church, as He has removed the protected border line to allow the wickedness to enter it. Haven't you read the Scripture?

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The wicked people are spiritually Gentiles. They are false prophets and christs that comes INTO THE COURT OF THE TEMPLE WITHIN the HOLY CITY! This is WHERE the true spiritual battle of Armageddon - wherever the churches are all over the world—Gog and Magog!

You are completely misunderstanding the Battle of Armageddon if you think it is solely about fighting in the Middle East against the nation of Israel. That is not happening. The reality is that the battle of Armageddon is occurring right now, where false prophets and false Christs are deceiving people in congregations worldwide. This battle is spiritually discerned.

 

[Douggg]

You are completely misunderstanding the Battle of Armageddon if you think it is solely about fighting in the Middle East against the nation of Israel.

I never wrote "Battle of Armageddon". Armageddon is not a campaign against Israel.

Armageddon is a location in Israel where the kings of the earth will assemble their armies to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

In Revelation 19, Jesus at His return destroys the kings of the earth and their armies in Revelation 19:21.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Armageddon is not a campaign against Israel.

Armageddon is a location in Israel where the kings of the earth will assemble their armies to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

No, you misunderstood the meaning of greek, [Har-Meggiddon].

Rev 16:12-16
(12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Megiddo was a city that was located in Canaan. The "king of Megiddo" was among those whom Joshua Defeated in battle after the Israelites entered the land of Canaan (Joshua 12:21). In this prophecy of Revelation 16:16, this city represents the place where the kings of the earth and the whole world are gathering together as forces of evil against God's people. These wicked are gathered to Armageddon or the mount of Megiddo, (from the Greek [Har-Meggiddon]) for this epic final spiritual battle. And the Lord prevails over them just as in Biblical history. The Hebrew word [megiddo] meaning a gathering or assembly. While the Mountain in Scripture represents a kingdom or the place where kings rule and reign. Revelation 16 uses this word to illustrate the place where His people war and overcome their enemies through Christ Jesus. It is here that they (these enemies of God signified as unclean spirits) were gathered together so that they would finally be judged of God (Revelation 6:10). This place of judgment is called Armageddon to signify where the unfaithful enemies of God will be judged and desolated for their abominations there. Not a physical city in the Middle East. Just as in the prophecy of Babylon, Megiddo is a name used symbolically for this epic kingdom battle. It is a portrait of the final, apocalyptic battle in the church, the visible representation of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

The symbolical significance of the battlefield of Megiddo is of an end time war between the servants and forces of good and evil where the enemies of the kingdom of God will be defeated.

The question is asked, why Megiddo? I believe that it (like other names of cities) direct us to historical events, origin, character, record or legend. In this case because it was on the battlefield of Megiddo that God's servants Barak and Deborah defeated the wicked enemies of God in the land of Canaan. It is used as a sort of "type" prefiguring the kings of the earth and their desolating loss in this decisive battle.

Judges 5:18-21

• "The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.
• They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
• The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength."

God defeated these kings of Canaan because they were enemies of the children of God. In this same way the kings of the earth (false prophets and christs, as well as professed Christians) come up against the children of God (Elect) and likewise come up empty and defeated there. Not unlike the King of Babylon was defeated and the children of God delivered from that city.

You may protest and insist on the literal city in Israel but please listen carefully... the geographical location of the historical city of Megiddo is irrelevant to the prophecy of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation. This is because that prophecy has nothing to do with a geographical location in Israel. In Revelation chapter 16 the kings of the earth, which are also identified as the followers of the Beast, unclean spirits, and the false prophets, come to fight against the servants of God "located" in the camp of the saints! The camp of the saints is NOT in a city called Megiddo in Israel at all! Selah! The camp of the Saints make up of international believers identified as God's church. False prophets aren't interested in physical wars upon hills, they are interested in deceiving those of the church. Their warfare is not flesh or carnal fighting with guns and missiles..or even horses. NO! It is NOT of this world in a physical way. The battle is as spiritual as the battle of these kings that Satan gathers from the four corners of the earth in his "universal" war against God's congregation on Earth! The place of the battle is "symbolically" called the mount of Megiddo, not because it is in physical Megiddo, rather because it is a kingdom wherein God shall have a glorious victory "as He did" in Megiddo thousands of years ago! And so seeking the geographical location of this city that existed years ago to fulfill future prophecy is about as wise as seeking the geographical location where Israel sacrificed Lambs to fulfill Christ being sacrificed on the altar. One doesn't define the other, it points to it as a likeness of its fulfillment. The Physical pointed to the Spiritual. Get it?! For example:

Amos 9:14

• "And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them."

Sure, some misguided souls look at that and expect physical restorations and rebuildings when the prophecy was of something Spiritual coming in the likeness of rebuilding and a freeing a captivity in Israel. Not Physical or national Israel, but the church! As indeed God's word confirms "clearly" in Acts:

Ac 15:14-17

• "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
• And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
• After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
• That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."

Sure some think the return of the captivity refers top a future event of physical and national Israel with so called third temple, but God says this was fulfilled in Christ's Church. God said He would bring again the captivity of His people of Israel that they can build again the waste cities that had been destroyed. And He Did! God's "authoritative" word said that this was all fulfilled! Because the prophecy was not of restoring a Physical location or city that was brought to ruin, but it spoke of spiritual restoration. Likewise the Megiddo you believe is the site of the ancient city and situated in northern Israel near Kibbutz 30 km south-east of Haifa "is irrelevant" to the prophecy concerning false prophets and the beast! Selah!

Revelation 16:15-16

• "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
• And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

God's warning is not for the people of National Israel to watch for the invading armies of foreign nations from the East or the North, but to the saints to "watch" so that they keep their spiritual garments so that they do not walk in the shame of the nakedness of their sin (Revelation 3:17). Hello?! For Christ comes as a THIEF in the night when you least expect it, and if the church isn't the proverbial watchmen that they are commanded to be, they will find themselves as the unwise virgins with lamps without oil.

 

[Douggg]

In this prophecy of Revelation 16:16, this city represents the place where the kings of the earth and the whole world are gathering together as forces of evil against God's people.

The text of Revelation 19:19 says...gathered together to make war against Jesus and against His army of heaven accompanying Him at His return.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Douggg]

That's not the text of the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Go to my post # 133 in this thread...

The two witnessss

I was just repeating what you yourself stated and I just wrapped it around "back at you" on those things. Ok, I get it. Now, can you please answer my questions in post #116 and 119?

www.christianityboard.com

 

[TribulationSigns]

The text of Revelation 19:19 says...gathered together to make war against Jesus and against His army of heaven accompanying Him at His return.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

It is same thing with:

Rev 11:7-10
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The false prophets and christs and all professed Christians are part of the body of the beast. They are Satan's kings of the earth that are wage war against the Lord's kings of the earth, the Saints (Two Witnesses). They will successfully silence the testimony of two witnesses so they can rejoice and exchange gifts of false doctrine and abominations as they please in the church all over the Earth! This is how the church fell into apostasy and into desolate. This is HOW Satan is "revealed" through these men in church! This must take place first before Christ returns, selah! The spiritual war of Armageddon is here where by their action, they are fighting against Christ and His People until Christ appears and have them taken and take them into lake of fire.

Moreover, we don't ask ourselves if the valley of Megiddo is known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance, we ask ourselves if there is some Spiritual significance to God speaking of a mountain of Megiddo as the place where the final battle in the church will be played out. We don't ask if a special people clinging to a plot of earth in the middle east called Israel will be saved by God, we ask if a people clinging to the man Christ, THEE Israel of God, located all over the world, will be saved by God. This is a battle not of earthly munitions, weapons and nations, but a spiritual battle much more important. Whether we survive the battle of Armageddon depends upon if we are equipped with Christ, or with the spirit of this world. The Strong in the Lord will survive it because they worship Him in Spirit and truth, not in vain words, self-justification and worldly notions of wars, rumors of wars and plots of earth in the Middle East.

Ephesians 6:10-18

• "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
• Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
• For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
• Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
• Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
• And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
• Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
• And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
• Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;"

I listen to those who bear testimony to what the word of God says, not those speculating about the Middle East, Holy Temples, the common market, Russian tanks, Iraq, the holy land, one world governments, unity of the world coming against Israel with bombs and guns, Chinese armies from the East, etc. etc. I'm not interested in fables, dreams, visions, the ramblings of TV Evangelicals, or wild political speculations. It is "they" who are making things up, not me.

Revelation 16:14

• "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Satan is NOT loosed to gather his army against the nation of Israel, he is gathering them together to fight against "Christ's People," who are the saints of the church, Jews and Gentiles! Satan is at enmity with the church and his mission is to bring abominations into it that it might become desolate. Much like what Christ said he did with regards to the Old Testament church represented by Jerusalem.

Luke 13:34-35

• "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
• Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

And true to His Word, the Old Testament church was left desolate in Christ's victory over Satan. Should we think the New Testament church is any better to escape God's judgment when they kill the two witnesses, kill the Lord's two prophets, and stone those that are sent as His Messengers? I think not.

 

[CTK]

The kjv reads differently....

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

The sixth angel sounds his trumpet. Then the voice says to the sixth angel to "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. "

So the sixth angel takes his vial of God's wrath and pours it out - Revelation 16:12. And the Euphrates is dried up. That loosens the four angels bound in the great river Euphrates. And makes way for the kings of the east to march toward Armageddon.

The four angels (obviously evil angels) assist and guide the kings of the east and their armies of 200,000,000 to kill a third of mankind on the way.

So there it is @CTK. All spelled out for you.

It is same thing with:

Rev 11:7-10
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
(10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The false prophets and christs and all professed Christians are part of the body of the beast. They are Satan's kings of the earth that are wage war against the Lord's kings of the earth, the Saints (Two Witnesses). They will successfully silence the testimony of two witnesses so they can rejoice and exchange gifts of false doctrine and abominations as they please in the church all over the Earth! This is how the church fell into apostasy and into desolate. This is HOW Satan is "revealed" through these men in church! This must take place first before Christ returns, selah! The spiritual war of Armageddon is here where by their action, they are fighting against Christ and His People until Christ appears and have them taken and take them into lake of fire.

Moreover, we don't ask ourselves if the valley of Megiddo is known for its historical, geographical, and theological importance, we ask ourselves if there is some Spiritual significance to God speaking of a mountain of Megiddo as the place where the final battle in the church will be played out. We don't ask if a special people clinging to a plot of earth in the middle east called Israel will be saved by God, we ask if a people clinging to the man Christ, THEE Israel of God, located all over the world, will be saved by God. This is a battle not of earthly munitions, weapons and nations, but a spiritual battle much more important. Whether we survive the battle of Armageddon depends upon if we are equipped with Christ, or with the spirit of this world. The Strong in the Lord will survive it because they worship Him in Spirit and truth, not in vain words, self-justification and worldly notions of wars, rumors of wars and plots of earth in the Middle East.

Ephesians 6:10-18

• "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
• Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
• For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
• Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
• Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
• And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
• Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
• And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
• Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;"

I listen to those who bear testimony to what the word of God says, not those speculating about the Middle East, Holy Temples, the common market, Russian tanks, Iraq, the holy land, one world governments, unity of the world coming against Israel with bombs and guns, Chinese armies from the East, etc. etc. I'm not interested in fables, dreams, visions, the ramblings of TV Evangelicals, or wild political speculations. It is "they" who are making things up, not me.

Revelation 16:14

• "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Satan is NOT loosed to gather his army against the nation of Israel, he is gathering them together to fight against "Christ's People," who are the saints of the church, Jews and Gentiles! Satan is at enmity with the church and his mission is to bring abominations into it that it might become desolate. Much like what Christ said he did with regards to the Old Testament church represented by Jerusalem.

Luke 13:34-35

• "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
• Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

And true to His Word, the Old Testament church was left desolate in Christ's victory over Satan. Should we think the New Testament church is any better to escape God's judgment when they kill the two witnesses, kill the Lord's two prophets, and stone those that are sent as His Messengers? I think not.

@Douggg ... Dougg, I would like to respectfully ask if you consider the views and intepretations that are thrown your way, and some of them are mine, as opposed to reading them and even while you may be reading them, you already know what you are going to respond to the poster. You repeat your view and resend your graph or charts ... I remember you telling me in not so nice a terms that your have been studying Daniel and or Revelation for almost 35 or 40 years - cannot remember as though that proved your interpretations were the right ones. Doug, I am very sorry, but your understanding of Daniel is so far off the grid and you have almost never in my memory considered any one of my interpretations - your interpretations of Daniel are mostly to be found in the end times and they have almost nothing to do with the end times. They focus on His first coming... But you are unable and unwilling to even entertain such a thought. Your too proud of your charts and graphs, etc., I remember how almost arrogant you got towards me when suggested they were not end time events and that 9;27 represented some ridiculous anti-Chirst figure....along with the other important terms in 9:27 when they clearly speak to the Messiah. You made no bones about how ridiculous it was for me to interpret Daniel without interrpreting Revelation - you told me it could not be done unless Revelation was also understood. That is ludicruous - sorry. Daniel comes before Revelation and helps interpret Revelation . Now, here I am attempting to go and interpret Revelation and everything you seem to comment on based on a literal interpretation.... it is all symbolic. But I have been down this road with you in Daniel more than a few times and I have found I do not want to be on the receiving end of your sojmetimes harsh comments - because they do not align with your 35 year old interpretations. I can clearly see you do not understand Revelation any better than you know Daniel ... and i have no intention of doing what I was guilty of doing on at least 3 separate occassions - responding to your posts with alot of detail and reasonableness to a certain verse or interpretation only to have you sumarily dismiss it as soon as you had quickly read it.. You simply do not want to entertain anyone's interpretations other than responding what you believe to be gospel. So, I would rather let you voice your interpretations - I know what they are - for Daniel, and now I see what your thoughts are for Revelatiaon - a literal interpretion ... I just do not want to put the same effort in responding to your posts or responses knowning they are wasted.... No disrespect here is just keeping my sanity.

 

[Douggg]

I remember you telling me in not so nice a terms that your have been studying Daniel and or Revelation for almost 35 or 40 years

Over 50 years.

I thought my post #16 about the four angels loosed from the Euphrates was pretty easy to follow. It was not a lengthy post. I try to keep my posts as brief as possible, otherwise, readers get bogged down and lose interest.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Over 50 years.

I thought my post #16 about the four angels loosed from the Euphrates was pretty easy to follow. It was not a lengthy post. I try to keep my posts as brief as possible, otherwise, readers get bogged down and lose interest.

Me too. But how long we have studied the Bible is irrelevant. It came down to how we discern mysteries, parables, symbolic, etc. through God's Word.

Lu 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

A mystery is only a mystery to those to whom it is not given to know or discern their iniquity. It's so clear, and yet so hidden. That's why people believe in Premillennialism, in Catholicism, in Free Will, in Divorce and remarriage, in a plot of Middle Eastern dirt, in doing physical miracles, in who is Israel, and even in the cult of Trump because it is not given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God because they are deluded that they will not receive God's truth in God's love.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Over 50 years.

I thought my post #16 about the four angels loosed from the Euphrates was pretty easy to follow. It was not a lengthy post. I try to keep my posts as brief as possible, otherwise, readers get bogged down and lose interest.

Per #16 post:

No. The 7 trumpet plagues are end times, the present parable of the fig tree generation.

The "fig tree generation" is your misinterpretation of Matthew 24:32-25:

Mat 24:32-35
(32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
(33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
(34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Jesus did not mention "fig tree generation"; that phrase was your own interpretation. He was simply using the fig tree and "all other trees" (found in Luke 21) as examples. When people see these trees budding with leaves, they recognize that spring has arrived and that summer is approaching. Similarly, when we observe the events described in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 occurring, we can understand that we are in the Great Tribulation and that Christ's return is imminent. But what exactly are these events?

1.) Raise of false prophets and christ , claim to have power from heaven and shall deceive many
2.) Kingdom of Christ and Kingdom of Darkness wage spiritual war within the church all over the world.
3.) Spiritual famiines
4.) spiritual sickness (pestilences) because Christ is no longer found in unfaithful church
5.) earthquake signifies the shaking of the church foundation for her unfaithfulness.
6.) Many professed Christians will kill (hate) you for defending the Truth against their false doctrines
7.) More false prophets in Church - like frogs, locusts, horsemen, all over Church which is now spiritual Egypt.
8.) The love of God grow cold is when professed Christians refuse to do first love or great commission
9.) Abomination of desolation stand up as a sign that God is judging the unfaithful church so Elect need to leave church to avoid her plagues
10.) Don't go back to church - remember Lot's wife
11.) Woe to professed Christians that won't be able to suck in those days.
12.) Don't believe or follow people who claim that they have Christ or power of the spirit in their Church. Believe it not because God has already judging Church.
13.) Don't go to Church that is in desert (lack of Gospel water). Or do not go to church where Christ is hidden to them (secret chambers).
14.) The carcase is the dead unfaithful church where God empowered the depart out Elect (as a eagles) to prophesy judgment upon her -
15.) Immediately after the Great Tribualtion FOR the Elect, the sun become dark (Gospel light no longer in Church), moon not give light (unfaithful church no longer reflect the light of Gospel), and stars falling from heaven (false prophets and christs as messengers falling) will be as a SIGN to Elect that Christ's coming is very near - Just as Christ warned that if we see all those things, be prepare for Christ's return.
16.) Christ returns and gathers his Elects from Earth to meet with him in the Air.

Look, Christ did not say that we would know He is near by witnessing the Antichrist's sign of a seven-year treaty, did He? He didn't say we would recognize His nearness by seeing Russians or Chinese invading national Israel. Not at all! He said that when we see all these things mentioned earlier, we will know that Christ is near. That is all we need to know!

 

[CTK]

Per #16 post:


The "fig tree generation" is your misinterpretation of Matthew 24:32-25:

Mat 24:32-35
(32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
(33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
(34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Jesus did not mention "fig tree generation"; that phrase was your own interpretation. He was simply using the fig tree and "all other trees" (found in Luke 21) as examples. When people see these trees budding with leaves, they recognize that spring has arrived and that summer is approaching. Similarly, when we observe the events described in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 occurring, we can understand that we are in the Great Tribulation and that Christ's return is imminent. But what exactly are these events?

1.) Raise of false prophets and christ , claim to have power from heaven and shall deceive many
2.) Kingdom of Christ and Kingdom of Darkness wage spiritual war within the church all over the world.
3.) Spiritual famiines
4.) spiritual sickness (pestilences) because Christ is no longer found in unfaithful church
5.) earthquake signifies the shaking of the church foundation for her unfaithfulness.
6.) Many professed Christians will kill (hate) you for defending the Truth against their false doctrines
7.) More false prophets in Church - like frogs, locusts, horsemen, all over Church which is now spiritual Egypt.
8.) The love of God grow cold is when professed Christians refuse to do first love or great commission
9.) Abomination of desolation stand up as a sign that God is judging the unfaithful church so Elect need to leave church to avoid her plagues
10.) Don't go back to church - remember Lot's wife
11.) Woe to professed Christians that won't be able to suck in those days.
12.) Don't believe or follow people who claim that they have Christ or power of the spirit in their Church. Believe it not because God has already judging Church.
13.) Don't go to Church that is in desert (lack of Gospel water). Or do not go to church where Christ is hidden to them (secret chambers).
14.) The carcase is the dead unfaithful church where God empowered the depart out Elect (as a eagles) to prophesy judgment upon her -
15.) Immediately after the Great Tribualtion FOR the Elect, the sun become dark (Gospel light no longer in Church), moon not give light (unfaithful church no longer reflect the light of Gospel), and stars falling from heaven (false prophets and christs as messengers falling) will be as a SIGN to Elect that Christ's coming is very near - Just as Christ warned that if we see all those things, be prepare for Christ's return.
16.) Christ returns and gathers his Elects from Earth to meet with him in the Air.

Look, Christ did not say that we would know He is near by witnessing the Antichrist's sign of a seven-year treaty, did He? He didn't say we would recognize His nearness by seeing Russians or Chinese invading national Israel. Not at all! He said that when we see all these things mentioned earlier, we will know that Christ is near. That is all we need to know!

Somebody seems to have spent some serious time in the Scriptures....

 

[KUWN]

1) 200 million army? What are they for? I thought the angels killed 1/3 of mankind? Are the horses literaly covered in these 3 colors with heads of lions? Did fire and smoke and brimstone come literally out of their mouths? Why horses and horseman? What happened to tanks and aircraft and submaries and destroyers and missiles? i imagine the Euphrates reference being dried up is necessary so this army can cross? Do you really believe any nation needs to wait for a river to dry up and attack with horses? But doesn't it specifially tell us the fire, smokd and brimstone are plagues? Power in the mouth and tails -- all literal? You get the idea....

This is a demonic army that are being lead by the 4 demons released from the Abyss. The fifth trumpet is clearly a demonic horde invading the earth. The 5th and 6th trumpets go together, so it is very likely that the 200 million army are demons. The leaders of the army are 4 demons, which, since the leaders are demons., the army is also demons.

No. Not the actual number. The number has spiritual significance. The book of Revelation is full of symbolism.

That depends on which hermeneutic you choose.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is a demonic army that are being lead by the 4 demons released from the Abyss. The fifth trumpet is clearly a demonic horde invading the earth. The 5th and 6th trumpets go together, so it is very likely that the 200 million army are demons. The leaders of the army are 4 demons, which, since the leaders are demons., the army is also demons.

Huh... you do not make any sense!

Rev 9:13-14
(13) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
(14) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

If you insist that the four angels who are bound in the river are four demons, then the sixth angel who had the trumpet is a demon too?

You have poor biblical exegesis.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, moving on to the 6th trumpet, there are so many symbols in these verses .... just one of them is the 200 million. Who do you folks say they represent? Thanks.

The first 2 woes are rather simple.

Satan has his army of angels at his disposal, and his army of humans at his disposal. This is in opposition to Jesus being on earth since the 6th Seal with His angels and the 144k individuals in Jesus' army if you want to call it that. Later it is called the camp of the saints, camp being a military term. They are seen riding horses, a military battle configuration.

Many here don't think the number 144k is literal, so why have a literal number for Satan's human army? Obviously if it is 200 million or 200 thousand, it would still outnumber 144 thousand.

The point is both Jesus and Satan will be physically present on earth, and constantly at odds with each other from the 6th Seal to the 7th Trumpet. That time may be long, or it may be short, depending on when the Second Coming actually happens.

One quarter of mankind will die in the Seals. Another one third will die in the Trumpets. I think holding to that equation, one half will die in the Thunders. Then in the vial of God's wrath one hundred percent.

If you start out with 8 billion, that would be 2 billion at each set of judgments, until all humanity is physically dead.

A quarter of 8 billion is 2 billion.

A third of 6 billion is 2 billion.

A half of 4 billion is 2 billion.

All of 2 billion is 2 billion.

This is the final harvest and the total and complete removal of Adam's dead corruptible flesh from creation.