Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings)

[Jude Thaddeus]

Yahweh = Hebrew--Yeshua=Jesus--We speak English, Our bibles are in English not Hebrew. Thus we use-Jesus not Yeshua, etc with Jehovah.
Psalm 110:1-quoted at Matt 22:44 proves 100% Jesus is not Jehovah.

The term “Jehovah” first appeared in the 13th century when Christian scholars took the consonants of “Yahweh” and pronounced it with the vowels of “Adonai”12. The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 12701. The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century3. The vocalization of the Tetragrammaton Jehovah was first introduced by William Tyndale in his translation of Exodus 6:33.

It appears the term defining their identity (Jehovah) was determined by a translation by William Tyndale.

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[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for this.....good points to discuss....

Jehovah (/dʒɪˈhoʊvə/) is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה‎Yəhōwā, one vocalization of the Tetragrammaton יהוה‎ (YHWH), the proper name of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament.[2][3][4] The Tetragrammaton יהוה is considered one of the seven names of God in Judaism and a form of God's name in Christianity

The name “Jehovah” is a Latinized form of the divine name “יהוה”. Ironically this is the language of Ancient Rome, the home of the Roman Catholic church.
As mentioned, its original pronunciation was lost centuries ago, even before the birth of Christ......which is why Jesus said he had come to ‘make his Father’s name known’ to his disciples. (John 17:6, 26) So didn’t Jesus think that his Father’s name was important? What was his first priority in the Lord’s Prayer?

The Hebrew “Adonai”, (which simply means “Lord”) was substituted by the Jews in their speech, supposedly because the divine name was “too sacred to be uttered”.....which is superstitious nonsense because the Bible writers in the OT used God’s name almost 7000 times with due reverence.
To reduce the Sovereign of the Universe to a mere title that is shared with sinful humans is to demean him and bring him down to the level of humans.

We see this trend in other Abrahamic faiths as well.....in Islam “Allah” simply means “Lord”....in Christendom, “Kyrios” means “Lord”.....and in ancient times “Baal” worship was widely practiced....even by the Israelites......”Baal” also means “Lord”.....so are we getting an idea of what this travesty means and who is behind it?
By using a title instead of God’s name we reduce him down to the level of false gods as well.

Jehovah" at Exodus 6:3[1] (King James Version)The consensus among scholars is that the historical vocalization of the Tetragrammaton at the time of the redaction of the Torah (6th century BCE) is most likely Yahweh. The historical vocalization was lost because in Second Temple Judaism, during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE, the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided, being substituted with Adonai ('my Lord')

There was no legitimate reason to cease saying God’s name, but it has been suggested that some among the Jews were making frivolous oaths using God’s name and then failing to honor them, thus “taking God’s name in vain”. But instead of punishing the perpetrators, they simply banned all mention of the name in their speech, but retained it in their Scripture, which we see to this day in the Jewish Bible.

The Hebrew vowel points of Adonai were added to the Tetragrammaton by the Masoretes, and the resulting form was transliterated around the 12th century CE as Yehowah.[8] The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century.

So messing with the divine name is ancient......who do we suppose was responsible for making sure that God’s name was not known to those who were his ancient people and those in the centuries to come.....and if Jesus said he came to “make God’s name known” to his disciples.......how did it become lost again?

William Tyndale first introduced the vocalization of the Tetragrammaton Jehovah in his translation of Exodus 6:3, and appears in some other early English translations including the Geneva Bible and the King James Version.[9] The United States Conference of Catholic Bishopsstates that to pronounce the Tetragrammaton "it is necessary to introduce vowels that alter the written and spoken forms of the name (i.e. "Yahweh" or "Jehovah")."[10] Jehovah appears in the Old Testament of some widely used translations including the American Standard Version (1901) and Young's Literal Translation (1862, 1899); the New World Translation (1961, 2013) uses Jehovah in both the Old and New Testaments. Jehovah does not appear in most mainstream English translations, some of which use Yahweh but most continue to use "Lord" or "LORD" to represent the Tetragrammaton.[11][12] Mormonsbelieve Jehova to be the name Elohim, God the Father, prior to his birth.

It is important to understand the difference between a translation and a transliteration.....one is the translation of what the name means in any given language, whilst a transliteration is what is assumed to be the closest to the original pronunciation. Does this make a difference? It certainly does.

If God was the one who gave his name to his people as we see in Exodus 3:13-15, (which was ridiculously removed in most English Bible translations and substituted with “The LORD”) then what is more important....the translation which retains the meaning of his name, or a transliteration that assumes what is closest to the way that the Jews originally pronounced it?

Seeing as how Judaism was in an apostate condition when Jesus arrived on the scene, what was important was making God’s name known to those who became Christ’s disciples......and since the good news of God’s kingdom was to be “preached in all the inhabited earth”, God’s name would have to be translated into many different languages......and it is. English is not the only language spoken by Christians.

When Jesus and his apostles quoted OT Scripture that included the Tetragrammaton, they would not have followed an apostate Jewish superstition, but what Jesus taught in his quoting from God’s word, would have contained the divine name....as it was known to him at that time.......that is why our NWT includes it in all the OT quotes where it was written in the original Scripture. Christendom of course disagrees with that.

There was no conspiracy to remove God’s name from the Bible. Jehovah was not used until the 16th century.

Only one entity wants God’s name NOT to be known....

God’s name is not “God” or “Lord”....these are mere titles, but only the Almighty is addressed in Scripture as Jehovah, Yahweh....or however you want to address him. It is his name exclusively (Psalm 83:18) To substitute a title when his name was intended to be there in his word, is disrespectful and goes against everything the Bible says about “the only true God” (John 17:3)......if we do not know him by name...we do not know him at all......and his son could never have become a substitute for him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don’t think Jehovah is an English word

It’s an accepted translation of a Hebrew word.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don’t think Jehovah is an English word

If you are going to reject “Jehovah”, the you will have to rewrite the entire English translation of the Bible.....there is no “J” in Hebrew.....so all the Bible names that begin with “J” are mostly derivatives incorporating the name of Jehovah.
You can’t fuss over “Jehovah” and then say “Jesus” is your savior....if there is no Jehovah, then there is no Jesus either...no Jeremiah, Jehonadab, no Joshua, Joel or Jonah.....all spelt very differently in the Hebrew Bible translations.

 

[RLT63]

If you are going to reject “Jehovah”, the you will have to rewrite the entire English translation of the Bible.....there is no “J” in Hebrew.....so all the Bible names that begin with “J” are mostly derivatives incorporating the name of Jehovah.
You can’t fuss over “Jehovah” and then say “Jesus” is your savior....if there is no Jehovah, then there is no Jesus either...no Jeremiah, Jehonadab, no Joshua, Joel or Jonah.....all spelt very differently in the Hebrew Bible translations.

I’m not rejecting it. Keiw said we used it because we speak English
There’s nothing wrong with using the word but I don’t think you can make the case that it’s an English word.

 

[RLT63]

Thank you for this.....good points to discuss....

The name “Jehovah” is a Latinized form of the divine name “יהוה”. Ironically this is the language of Ancient Rome, the home of the Roman Catholic church.
As mentioned, its original pronunciation was lost centuries ago, even before the birth of Christ......which is why Jesus said he had come to ‘make his Father’s name known’ to his disciples. (John 17:6, 26) So didn’t Jesus think that his Father’s name was important? What was his first priority in the Lord’s Prayer?

The Hebrew “Adonai”, (which simply means “Lord”) was substituted by the Jews in their speech, supposedly because the divine name was “too sacred to be uttered”.....which is superstitious nonsense because the Bible writers in the OT used God’s name almost 7000 times with due reverence.
To reduce the Sovereign of the Universe to a mere title that is shared with sinful humans is to demean him and bring him down to the level of humans.

We see this trend in other Abrahamic faiths as well.....in Islam “Allah” simply means “Lord”....in Christendom, “Kyrios” means “Lord”.....and in ancient times “Baal” worship was widely practiced....even by the Israelites......”Baal” also means “Lord”.....so are we getting an idea of what this travesty means and who is behind it?
By using a title instead of God’s name we reduce him down to the level of false gods as well.



There was no legitimate reason to cease saying God’s name, but it has been suggested that some among the Jews were making frivolous oaths using God’s name and then failing to honor them, thus “taking God’s name in vain”. But instead of punishing the perpetrators, they simply banned all mention of the name in their speech, but retained it in their Scripture, which we see to this day in the Jewish Bible.



So messing with the divine name is ancient......who do we suppose was responsible for making sure that God’s name was not known to those who were his ancient people and those in the centuries to come.....and if Jesus said he came to “make God’s name known” to his disciples.......how did it become lost again?


It is important to understand the difference between a translation and a transliteration.....one is the translation of what the name means in any given language, whilst a transliteration is what is assumed to be the closest to the original pronunciation. Does this make a difference? It certainly does.

If God was the one who gave his name to his people as we see in Exodus 3:13-15, (which was ridiculously removed in most English Bible translations and substituted with “The LORD”) then what is more important....the translation which retains the meaning of his name, or a transliteration that assumes what is closest to the way that the Jews originally pronounced it?

Seeing as how Judaism was in an apostate condition when Jesus arrived on the scene, what was important was making God’s name known to those who became Christ’s disciples......and since the good news of God’s kingdom was to be “preached in all the inhabited earth”, God’s name would have to be translated into many different languages......and it is. English is not the only language spoken by Christians.

When Jesus and his apostles quoted OT Scripture that included the Tetragrammaton, they would not have followed an apostate Jewish superstition, but what Jesus taught in his quoting from God’s word, would have contained the divine name....as it was known to him at that time.......that is why our NWT includes it in all the OT quotes where it was written in the original Scripture. Christendom of course disagrees with that.

Only one entity wants God’s name NOT to be known....

God’s name is not “God” or “Lord”....these are mere titles, but only the Almighty is addressed in Scripture as Jehovah, Yahweh....or however you want to address him. It is his name exclusively (Psalm 83:18) To substitute a title when his name was intended to be there in his word, is disrespectful and goes against everything the Bible says about “the only true God” (John 17:3)......if we do not know him by name...we do not know him at all......and his son could never have become a substitute for him.

When Jesus addressed God he usually called him Father or The Father.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

If you are going to reject “Jehovah”, the you will have to rewrite the entire English translation of the Bible.....there is no “J” in Hebrew.....so all the Bible names that begin with “J” are mostly derivatives incorporating the name of Jehovah.
You can’t fuss over “Jehovah” and then say “Jesus” is your savior....if there is no Jehovah, then there is no Jesus either...no Jeremiah, Jehonadab, no Joshua, Joel or Jonah.....all spelt very differently in the Hebrew Bible translations.

Was William Tyndale a scripture scholar or a trouble making heretic? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[Keiw]

The term “Jehovah” first appeared in the 13th century when Christian scholars took the consonants of “Yahweh” and pronounced it with the vowels of “Adonai”12. The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 1250. The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century3. The vocalization of the Tetragrammaton Jehovah was first introduced by William Tyndale in his translation of Exodus 6:33.

It appears the term defining their identity (Jehovah) was determined by a translation by William Tyndale.
It should be no surprise why there is a disproportionate population of schizophrenics in the JW community.

God has always made his name known. disillusioned men try to take credit for Gods name. Jehovah is the only true God.
Don't use the name Jesus then because he wasn't called that either. Its Yeshua in Hebrew.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

God has always made his name known. disillusioned men try to take credit for Gods name. Jehovah is the only true God.
Don't use the name Jesus then because he wasn't called that either. Its Yeshua in Hebrew.

רוב הנוצרים קוראים גרסאות באנגלית, לא עברית.
Yeshua is the Hebrew pronunciation for Jesus. I don't contest that. Most Christians read English versions in English speaking countries., not Hebrew.
I've produced non-biased evidence the "Jehovah" pronunciation for God is a man made tradition from the middle ages. No scholarly evidence to the contrary presented, just vain repetitions.

 

[Aunty Jane]

When Jesus addressed God he usually called him Father or The Father.

Not at all unusual for a son to address his Father by that designation.....when teaching us to pray Jesus said “OUR Father who art in heaven....hallowed be thy name”.......what name was he referring to as the one who is “our” Father.

We are all his children....but he has a personal name...not one given to him by men, but one he gave to his people on their release from slavery in Egypt.

Read Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh.....

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

Jewish Tanakh

In the Hebrew text, the Tetragrammaton is there and it’s meaning is given as “I will be what I will be”......it never was “I Am” because the Jews already knew who he was as descendants of Jacob and Abraham....but they were about to know him in a whole different way to what their forefathers did....this is what he was going to BE for them after their deliverance.....whatever was required of him in order to fulfill his purpose in connection to Israel, as the means by which he would produce his Messiah, he would do.

His name was to be “mentioned in every generation”, but again we see the disobedient Jews failing to do as God instructed them.....and the pronunciation of his name was lost because of them.

 

[RLT63]

Not at all unusual for a son to address his Father by that designation.....when teaching us to pray Jesus said “OUR Father who art in heaven....hallowed be thy name”.......what name was he referring to as the one who is “our” Father.

We are all his children....but he has a personal name...not one given to him by men, but one he gave to his people on their release from slavery in Egypt.

Read Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh.....

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

Jewish Tanakh

In the Hebrew text, the Tetragrammaton is there and it’s meaning is given as “I will be what I will be”......it never was “I Am” because the Jews already knew who he was as descendants of Jacob and Abraham....but they were about to know him in a whole different way to what their forefathers did....this is what he was going to BE for them after their deliverance.....whatever was required of him in order to fulfill his purpose in connection to Israel, as the means by which he would produce his Messiah, he would do.

His name was to be “mentioned in every generation”, but again we see the disobedient Jews failing to do as God instructed them.....and the pronunciation of his name was lost because of them.

This is starting to sound gnostic

 

[Aunty Jane]

Was William Tyndale a scripture scholar or a trouble making heretic? Enquiring minds want to know.

LOL...IF you really want to know......this is for “enquiring minds” not ones set in Catholic concrete.....

• Tyndale, William
  • (c. 1494-1536) A clergyman, scholar, and Bible translator who was born and educated in England. He was the first person to translate the Christian Greek Scriptures and the Pentateuch from the original languages into English. He also translated passages of the Hebrew Scriptures for reading in church and published them together with the Christian Greek Scriptures. He may also have translated other books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
    Tyndale wanted to translate the Bible into English so that the common people could read God’s Word in their mother tongue. However, he encountered bitter opposition from the Catholic Church in England. The clergy wanted to keep the Bible in Latin, a language that most people could not understand. So in 1524, Tyndale went to Germany and set about translating the Christian Greek Scriptures there. He tried to publish his English translation in Cologne, Germany, in 1525 but was met with opposition. Only the so-called Cologne Fragment, a copy of the Gospel of Matthew up to the middle of chapter 22, is known to exist from that printing. Finally, he managed to get the complete Christian Greek Scriptures printed secretly in Worms, Germany, in 1526.
    Copies of Tyndale’s translation were smuggled into England, but many were confiscated and burned. Tyndale moved from Germany to Antwerp (in present-day Belgium), where he translated the Pentateuch (1530) and prepared a revision of the Christian Greek Scriptures (1534). In 1535 he was betrayed and arrested for heresy. Imprisoned at Vilvoorde Castle, north of Brussels, he was executed in October 1536.
    In 1537 some of Tyndale’s work was incorporated into the so-called Matthew’s Bible by John Rogers, who had worked closely with Tyndale. Later, much of Tyndale’s work was also preserved in what is known as the Great Bible of 1539, as well as in the King James Bible of 1611.
    William Tyndale’s translation from the original Hebrew and Greek conveyed the message of the Bible in clear language to English speakers of his time. Some of the powerful, simple wording he used has had a lasting effect on the English language. He was also careful and accurate in his choice of words. For example, he used the word “love” instead of “charity”; “congregation” instead of “church”; “senior” or “elder” instead of “priest”; and “repent” instead of “do penance.” Some terms, such as “Passover,” “peacemaker,” and “scapegoat,” became common expressions. Above all, in his translation of the Pentateuch, Tyndale used God’s name, rendering it “Iehouah.” This was the first appearance of the divine name in an English Bible.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is starting to sound gnostic

Define “gnostic” according to your understanding......

 

[Aunty Jane]

רוב הנוצרים קוראים גרסאות באנגלית, לא עברית.
Yeshua is the Hebrew pronunciation for Jesus. I don't contest that. Most Christians read English versions in English speaking countries., not Hebrew.
I've produced non-biased evidence the "Jehovah" pronunciation for God is a man made tradition from the middle ages. No scholarly evidence to the contrary presented, just vain repetitions.

And this from one who accepts every non-scriptural “tradition” known to man, makes this exception....amid those who make the most “vain repetitions” of any professed Christians in existence.....SMH.

It is accepted by your own church.....what the heck?

 

[RLT63]

Define “gnostic” according to your understanding......

God”s name was lost and we have uncovered the lost name. You must have this knowledge to address God, It was taken out of the Bible and no one was allowed to say it but now we have it and it’s the only name God recognizes and must be addressed by.

 

[Aunty Jane]

God”s name was lost and we have uncovered the lost name.

First of all can we establish that God’s name was never “lost”...only its Hebrew pronunciation....
It was lost because of disobedience, not because God commanded his people to stop saying it....point one.

You must have this knowledge to address God,

OK, this seems to be your problem.....the knowledge we must have is not just God’s name, but what it means to those who purport to worship him. When Jesus said “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” ....

How do you get to know someone? Don’t you start with their name? Can you really know ‘what’s-his-name’?
Can you read a book by a well known author and not know his name? Would you take his name out of the book he wrote and simply call him “The Author”.....why not? Because he takes credit for his own work.

In John 17:3, Jesus did not say that knowledge of “us” will give you everlasting life....he differentiated himself from his Father and said we had to know them both....the third “person” is missing as he invariably is. Unless we “know” Jehovah and his son individually, we cannot be what we claim to be.....

It was taken out of the Bible and no one was allowed to say it but now we have it and it’s the only name God recognizes and must be addressed by.

Since God is the originator of every language, he knows his name and understands the prayers of his people in all nations, no matter what language they speak.....people get so hung up on English that they forget that Christians come from all nations....God does not require that they all learn Hebrew to communicate with him.

Reading through the prayers and statements recorded by God’s pre-Christian servants, we can see that they addressed God by name and that there was no hesitancy to use it....

2 Chron 1:9...Ezra....
“9 Now, O Jehovah God, let your promise with David my father prove faithful, for you yourself have made me king over a people as numerous as the dust particles of the earth.”


Psalm 1:1, 3, 7...King David....
“O Jehovah, why have my adversaries become so numerous?
Why are so many rising up against me?”

Jeremiah 1:6...
“But I said: “Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here I actually do not know how to speak, for I am but a boy.”

Ezekiel 3:27.....
“And when I speak with you I shall open your mouth, and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said.’ Let the one hearing hear, and let the one refraining refrain, because they are a rebellious house.”

Isaiah 1:2
“Hear, O heavens, and pay attention, O earth,
For Jehovah has spoken:
“Sons I have brought up and raised,
But they have revolted against me.”

If you read the Hebrew Bible, the Tetragrammaton is there in the text......should we avoid it? And if so why?

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

First of all can we establish that God’s name was never “lost”...only its Hebrew pronunciation....
It was lost because of disobedience, not because God commanded his people to stop saying it....point one.

The historical vocalization was lost because in Second Temple Judaism, during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE, the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided, being substituted with Adonai ('my Lord')
The historical vocalization was lost, substituted with Adonai ('my Lord') As found in the Hebrew Bible (Luke 1:43), not because of disobedience. Point 1.

If you read the Hebrew Bible, the Tetragrammaton is there in the text......should we avoid it? And if so why?

The Hebrew Bible is in Hebrew, and nothing to do with the English NWT. What is to be avoided is the New World Translation, point 2
and Tyndale was a trouble making heretic. point 3
His version of the Bible was condemned and banned twice by King Henry VIII. point 4
Yahweh is the name for God, and it refers to the same Divine Person: Adonai, Hebrew for "Lord"; found in Luke 1:48 Point 5

proper name, of deity Yahweh, the proper name of the God of Israel — (

1 ᵑ0 יְהוָֺהC518 (Qr אֲדֹנָי), or יֱהוִֺה305 (Qr אֱלֹהִים), in the combinations אדני יהוה & יהוה אדני (see אֲדֹנֶי), and with preposition בַּיהוָֺה, לַיהוָֺה, מֵיהוָֺה (Qr בַּאדֹנָי, לַאדֹנָי, מֵאדֹנָי), do not give the original form. ᵐ5 and other Vrss follow the Qr. On the basis of Exodus 20:7; Leviticus 24:11 יהוה was regarded as a nomen ineffabile (see Philode Vita Mosis iii. 519, 529), called by the Jews הַשֵּׁם and by the Samaritans שׁימא. The pronunciation Jehovah was unknown until 1520, when it was introduced by Galatinus; but it was contested by Le Mercier, J. Drusius, and L. Capellus, as against grammatical and historical propriety (compare Bö§ 88). The traditional Ἰαβέ of Theodoret and Epiphanius, the יָֿהוּ, יְהוֺֿ of compound proper name and the contracted form יָהּ all favour * יַהְוֶךְ *(compare יַהֲלֹמ֑וּן Psalm 74:6; תַּהֲרוּ Isaiah 33:11), see LagSym i.14 BaudStudien i.179 ff.; DrStud.Bib.i.1 ff. For Jeve see StaZAW 1881, 346 Deib.1882, 173 f. & Gn. Excurs. ii.
Strongs Concordance
The **pronunciation** Jehovah was unknown until 1520,

"I AM WHO AM" is not a name, it's a rhetorical answer God gave to Moses because to name God at that time is to define Him, and God cannot be defined by a name, so God used a non-name to make a point..
That's why some Jews today use the term G-d. They don't spell His name out of respect.

Exodus 3:14 – God says “I AM who I AM” –
John 8:58 – Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I AM” in reference to Himself.

John 1:1 – John writes, “the Word was God.” This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ’s divinity. (Note: in the NWT the passage was changed to “Word was a god.” This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

John 1:18 – the Greek word for “only-begotten” is “monogenes” which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

Col. 1:15 – Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the “firstborn” of all creation. The Greek word for “first-born” is “prototokos” which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 – Jesus tells satan, “you shall not tempt the Lord your God” in reference to Himself.

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 – Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 – Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.
long list here
The Old Testament contains several Hebrew names for God. Some of the most common names include12:

• El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)
• El Elyon (The Most High God)
• Adonai (Lord, Master)
• Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)
• Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)
• Jehovah-Roiy (The Lord My Shepherd)
• Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)

Are any of these Hebrew names for God in the NWT?

Yahweh and Jehovah are two different English transcriptions of the non-vocalized Tetragammaton, the four consonants standing for the ancient Hebrew name for God3. Yahweh is the Hebrew name for God meaning "I Am, The Self-Existent One"2. Jehovah is the English translation of Yahweh34.

note: English didn't begin to develop as a language until the 9th century. Moses didn't know English.

With advancements in psychopharmacology, treatment for schizophrenia has vastly improved in the last 5 years.

 

[The Learner]

What is the background to these ones who became known as the early church fathers…?

A little research reveals a lot….

In the middle of the second century C.E., professed Christians were defending their faith against Roman persecutors and heretics alike. However, this was an era of too many theological voices. Religious debates regarding the “divinity” of Jesus and the nature and workings of the holy spirit caused more than just intellectual rifts. Bitter disagreements and irreparable divisions over “Christian” doctrine spilled over into the political and cultural spheres, at times causing riots, rebellion, civil strife, even war.

You act as if it was all smooth sailing in the church from the second century onward……but it was exactly the opposite.
Christianity began in confusion, controversy and schism and it continued as apostasy grew. The central and eastern Mediterranean in the first and second centuries swarmed with an infinite multitude of religious ideas, struggling to establish themselves.….so from the start, there were numerous varieties of “Christianity” which had little in common.
During that era, writers and thinkers who felt that it was imperative to interpret “Christian” teachings using philosophical terms, became influential. To satisfy educated pagans, who were new converts to “Christianity,” such religious writers relied heavily on earlier Greek and Jewish literature. Beginning with Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 C.E.), who wrote in Greek, professed Christians became increasingly sophisticated in their assimilation of the philosophical heritage of the Greek culture.

Origen’s treatise “On First Principles” was the first systematic effort to explain the main doctrines of “Christian” theology in terms of Greek philosophy. The Council of Nicaea (325 C.E.), with its attempt to explain and establish the “divinity” of Christ, was the milestone that gave new impetus to interpretation of “Christian” dogma. That council marked the beginning of an era during which general church councils sought to define dogma ever more precisely, according to their own errant thinking.

Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote at the time of the first Council of Nicaea, associated himself with Constantine, a pagan emperor masquerading as a Christian convert. For slightly more than 100 years after Nicaea, theologians,(most of them writing in Greek) worked out in a long and bitter debate, what was to be the distinguishing and foundational doctrine that all of Christendom accepts, both Catholic and Protestant.

Writers and preachers during that age achieved high standards of eloquence, masters of the most respected and popular art form of their time. The most influential writer of that period was Augustine.

The question we have to ask is…did those early church fathers adhere closely to the Bible in their writings?

It was actually Greek culture and philosophy that provided the infrastructure of early “Christian” thought. Almost all the prominent church fathers considered the Greek elements most useful, and they borrowed them from the Greek classical antiquity, using them as a means to understand and correctly express the “Christian” truths….but were they merely given a Greek twist?

Against this historical backdrop, what are we to ascertain about the writings of the “early church fathers”?

Even this one unique feature of the Catholic church, that of calling the pope and their priests “Father” is contrary to Jesus’ words….he himself ruled out the use of the religious title “Father” when he said: “Call no one on earth your father, for you have but one Father, and he is in heaven.” (Matt 23:9 NCB)
The use of the term “Father” to designate any religious figure is unchristian and unscriptural.

But the list of these unscriptural doctrines is long…..perhaps you would like to address the questions posed to your fellow Catholics, repeated in post #507 above?


Well you can ignore history but there are many historians who do not paint the same picture that your church does….
Someone is not telling the truth…..I wonder who?

Neither Russell nor his companions ever claimed to be prophets…..they were just men of God who wanted to do what Jesus did when he tried to find those “lost sheep” who were not blinded by their religious leaders. The truth would “set them free”, ridding them of the shackles placed on all who engage in mindless performance of rituals, rather than studying God’s word for themselves. Being spoon fed lies goes so far back….
The truth is very inconvenient when it completely contradicts everything you have been taught to believe…..so we understand your reticence.…and even your anger and sarcasm.

The “wolves in sheep’s clothing“ are not a recent problem…..they were already there when the last of the apostles were writing their contributions to scripture, kept at bay until its completion. The wolves took over once the restraint of the apostles’ presence was gone…these wolves are your teachers…..which is proven by the fact that you cannot back up a single Catholic doctrine with Scripture.

Truth is htey were taught by the Apostles and some heard Jesus teach.

 

[The Learner]

I try not to do this with JW. There are some websites started by former JWs that I posted at one time that you had no answers for except to say they were hate sites.
I quit doing that because I have known JWs personally and I wouldn’t do that to them because I know they have been taught what they believe since they were children and it’s all they know.
But you have no problem attacking someone’s religion. You’re doing the same thing they’re doing to you. This thread was an attack so I know you’re defending yourself but you use the same tactics they use against you. It’s your insistence that yours is the one true religion that is hard to take.
I don’t agree with Catholics on a lot of things either but I don’t think it’s helpful to attack their religion either. I have done it in the past but realized the same thing, this is what they have been taught,they believe it as strongly as you believe what you do.
Attacking each other is not going to change anyone’s mind

New #119
Amos 6:10e

"We must not mention the name of the Lord.”

ASV "we may not make mention of the name of Jehovah."

CEB
"We mustn’t mention the name of the Lord.”

DARBY
we may not make mention of Jehovah's name.
CJB "we mustn’t mention the name of Adonai.”

NWT For it is not the time to make any mention of the name of Jehovah.’”
adds words not in the Hebrew to avoid this command!!! lol

 

[The Learner]

Hebrew is my first language.