Rapture Ready For Partial Rapture?

[marks]

Yes. I believe this is how Jesus could tell some people that it would go worse for them on that day than it would for Sodom.

OK, but not necessarily that the redeemed will be in outer darkness. I think if I remember what you've said, you see the Lake of Fire to end the existence of the unredeemed, but then you think that some of the unredeemed will not be annihilated, rather, to spend eternity in outer darkness, do I understand correctly?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm not completely settled on this matter. I definitely have some turmoil over the verse that says, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked.

Which verse is that?

 

[marks]

to the 4 sons of Noah who repopulate the earth,

The four sons of Noah?

 

[marks]

I see it everywhere in scripture, from the 4 rivers that flow out from Eden, to the 4 sons of Noah who repopulate the earth, and clear through to the filthy, unjust, righteous and holy spoken of in revelation. I guess you can't help not seeing it any more than I can help seeing it.

I thank God often for sending the man who helped me to see and begin to understand it.

I do find many many patterns in the Bible. I know several who look to these patterns very heavily in their understandings of things. It shows, to me, a difference in how we all interpret the Bible. Not the difference in our interpretations, I'm very interested in those. But the difference in how we arrive at those interpretations.

In this case, I see the binary nature of choice in Jesus' words, that whosoever believe in Me shall not perish but have eternal life. You've passed from death to life. Translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the Beloved. I set before you this day life and death, so choose life. My downsitting, my uprising. Like that.

You mentioned what we can and can't help seeing. That's an intriguing thought to consider the implications.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The four sons of Noah?

Oops, yeah 3 sons to repopulate the earth. All others died in the flood.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Which verse is that?

Google it. Its in...Ezekiel I think.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I do find many many patterns in the Bible. I know several who look to these patterns very heavily in their understandings of things. It shows, to me, a difference in how we all interpret the Bible. Not the difference in our interpretations, I'm very interested in those. But the difference in how we arrive at those interpretations.

In this case, I see the binary nature of choice in Jesus' words, that whosoever believe in Me shall not perish but have eternal life. You've passed from death to life. Translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the Beloved. I set before you this day life and death, so choose life. My downsitting, my uprising. Like that.

You mentioned what we can and can't help seeing. That's an intriguing thought to consider the implications.

Much love!

Yes, I see that you see a binary nature. This is because you think righteousness and holiness are the same thing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I do find many many patterns in the Bible. I know several who look to these patterns very heavily in their understandings of things.

Repeated themes. The same story told over and over. You can't help but notice them. God tells the same story over and over. He makes the same things happen over and over again (eccles)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Those are the souls of those slain that are under the altar as they had to be given robes when they are not resurrected yet.

Yes, the slain from out of the tribulation. We agree that they come out of the great tribulation. We agree that they were left behind at the gathering of the holy. We do not agree as to if they are vessels of dishonor. These verses do not describe a vessel of dishonor in my opinion:
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[marks]

Yes, I see that you see a binary nature. This is because you think righteousness and holiness are the same thing.

Is that so? Even though I keep telling you differently? I think you have me pidgeonholed as something I'm not.

But no, I disagree, it's because I see this teaching in the Bible, not because I superimpose something that I don't even think.

 

[marks]

Google it. Its in...Ezekiel I think.

A verse that says God will destroy the righteous with the wicked?

OK, I'm guessing you must be talking about:

Ezekiel 21
21 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:
5 That all flesh may know that I the Lord have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.
6 Sigh therefore, thou son of man, with the breaking of thy loins; and with bitterness sigh before their eyes.

How does this tell you that God's children will be cast into outer darkness?

Much love!

 

[Enow]

Yes, the slain from out of the tribulation. We agree that they come out of the great tribulation. We agree that they were left behind at the gathering of the holy. We do not agree as to if they are vessels of dishonor. These verses do not describe a vessel of dishonor in my opinion:
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I understand your disagreement, but those coming out of the great tribulation are called vessels unto dishonor or the least in the kingdom of Heaven is because they missed out in being ready for the Bridegroom to be received as vessels unto honor.

Those of the firstfruits of the resurrection will be like the angels that never die, nor given in marriage, sit at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven, have a mansion in the Father's house, thus having a place in the City of God that will come down from Heaven to dwell on the earth. That is why they are called vessels unto honor.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Those coming out of the great tribulation only have the power of the second death ( lake of fire ) not over them; which infers physical death still. They and their future generations will visit the tree of life in that City of God for the healing of the nations. They will serve the King of kings having been chastened by the Father and given stripes for which they will never sin those sins again in raising up the millennium by examples from various places all over the world. Because they were left behind, that is why they are called the vessels unto dishonor; vessels of wood & earth, that are in His House.

There is a glorified celestial inheritance and a glorified terrestrial inheritance until the very end at the Great White Throne judgment when Satan is cast into the lake of fire with death and hell, is when the glorified terrestrial inheritance will live forever with no chance of dying after that point.

Anyway, if you understand my application from His words and yet still disagree, then we can agree to disagree since we all prophesy in part and know in part but the point of truth now is to look to Jesus Christ, the author & finisher of our faith to help us be ready & to be willing to go to be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor in His House.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I understand your disagreement, but those coming out of the great tribulation are called vessels unto dishonor or the least in the kingdom of Heaven is because they missed out in being ready for the Bridegroom to be received as vessels unto honor.

But you haven't given me the verses for how you arrived at that. I can at least give a verse that shows trib martyrs will rule and reign with Christ. God makes rulers of the vessels of dishonor...? If you give the verses for how you arrived there I may be able to follow you. This will require some study and contemplation on your part, but at least I might be able to follow along.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

A verse that says God will destroy the righteous with the wicked?

OK, I'm guessing you must be talking about:

Ezekiel 21
21 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:
5 That all flesh may know that I the Lord have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.
6 Sigh therefore, thou son of man, with the breaking of thy loins; and with bitterness sigh before their eyes.

How does this tell you that God's children will be cast into outer darkness?

Much love!

As I said, I'm not completely settled on it, but surely you will agree that for God to say He will cut off the righteous along with the wicked is disturbing because it does not fit previous patterns. He always saves the righteous (Noah, Lot) before pouring out His wrath.

 

[Keraz]

Sorry; n2the light and Enow, it is pointless me trying to address all your posts.
We really must try to keep our posts shorter and discuss one issue at a time.

Here is a Biblical end times scenario:
God promised to ‘never again flood the earth’, but He has ‘stored up a fire that will envelope the earth in flames’, a worldwide judgement/punishment, vividly described by all the prophets. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
This terrible fire and devastation will come upon the world unexpectedly, ‘While they are saying: All is peaceful, all secure, then destruction is upon them’. 1 Thess. 5:3, Isaiah 29:5-6, Revelation 6:12-17
Huge numbers will be killed by the fire, earthquakes and the resulting famines afterward. Jeremiah 9:22, Isaiah 34:1-8, Ezekiel 30:2-5

The Lord is not seen on that Day, but His faithful people are saved and protected, [not raptured] Isaiah 30:26b, Isaiah 43:2, Zechariah 9:5-16
Then, as in Ezekiel 20:33-38...by My outpoured wrath, [The Day of wrath] I shall bring you out of the nations and gather you back to Israel. The Lord is: ‘Waiting to show you His favor’, and to bless His faithful believing Christian people as they fulfill the promises to the Patriarchs and their destiny: ‘to be a light to the nations’. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:4-16

 

[Jay Ross]

Sorry; n2the light and Enow, it is pointless me trying to address all your posts.
We really must try to keep our posts shorter and discuss one issue at a time.

Here is a Biblical end times scenario:
God promised to ‘never again flood the earth’, but He has ‘stored up a fire that will envelope the earth in flames’, a worldwide judgement/punishment, vividly described by all the prophets. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
This terrible fire and devastation will come upon the world unexpectedly, ‘While they are saying: All is peaceful, all secure, then destruction is upon them’. 1 Thess. 5:3, Isaiah 29:5-6, Revelation 6:12-17
Huge numbers will be killed by the fire, earthquakes and the resulting famines afterward. Jeremiah 9:22, Isaiah 34:1-8, Ezekiel 30:2-5

The Lord is not seen on that Day, but His faithful people are saved and protected, [not raptured] Isaiah 30:26b, Isaiah 43:2, Zechariah 9:5-16
Then, as in Ezekiel 20:33-38...by My outpoured wrath, [The Day of wrath] I shall bring you out of the nations and gather you back to Israel. The Lord is: ‘Waiting to show you His favor’, and to bless His faithful believing Christian people as they fulfill the promises to the Patriarchs and their destiny: ‘to be a light to the nations’. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:4-16

What is the difference between your model of being saved from the "tribulation," by being whisked away to a safe haven, and the Pre-tribbers who believe that they will be whisked away to heaven at the same time as in your model and then re-appear when the tribulation period is over.

Both model forms are questionable with respect to what is written in the scriptures.

Shalom

 

[Enow]

But you haven't given me the verses for how you arrived at that. I can at least give a verse that shows trib martyrs will rule and reign with Christ. God makes rulers of the vessels of dishonor...? If you give the verses for how you arrived there I may be able to follow you. This will require some study and contemplation on your part, but at least I might be able to follow along.

This is the reference where the power of the second death is not over those resurrected as having gone through the great tribulation.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That means no lake of fire for them. To say it in that way means physical death is still possible for why the tree of life is necessary for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

This suggest a glorified terrestrial inheritance for the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? ..... 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

For the vessels unto honor are those worthy of the first fruit of the resurrection where they are like the angels that never die nor marry.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So there is a huge difference between the two inheritance; and the rapture is when God judges His House first to separate the ones abiding in Him from those found in iniquity to be disqualified.

Have to take a break now. Sorry.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is the reference where the power of the second death is not over those resurrected as having gone through the great tribulation.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That means no lake of fire for them. To say it in that way means physical death is still possible for why the tree of life is necessary for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

This suggest a glorified terrestrial inheritance for the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? ..... 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

For the vessels unto honor are those worthy of the first fruit of the resurrection where they are like the angels that never die nor marry.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So there is a huge difference between the two inheritance; and the rapture is when God judges His House first too separate the ones abiding in Him from those found in iniquity to be disqualified.

Have to take a break now. Sorry.

Maybe try it this way. - can you fit the verse I cited into your scenario that can make me understand how vessels of dishonor rule and reign with Christ?

 

[Enow]

Maybe try it this way. - can you fit the verse I cited into your scenario that can make me understand how vessels of dishonor rule and reign with Christ?

That is a part of their inheritance on earth as they will live from all over the world in raising up the following generations in the millennium reign of Christ.

 

[marks]

As I said, I'm not completely settled on it, but surely you will agree that for God to say He will cut off the righteous along with the wicked is disturbing because it does not fit previous patterns. He always saves the righteous (Noah, Lot) before pouring out His wrath.

Yes, it's extreme, but it's not the same thing. God will destroy Jerusalem, and everyone will be gone from it, both righteous and wicked. But even so, God promised to take care of those who went along with the program. They would go and serve Nebuchadnezzar and all for 70 years, and then return home.

This is the kind of thing I like to say, "preaches well", in that, someone can lift something out of it's passage, not saying you are doing this, I don't think that, seems to me you are more just looking at things, but someone can lift this passage out and use it to illustrate their doctrine as if it supported it.

In this case, I think, it describes God's intent for the Israelites in Jerusalem in response to their failure to keep the covenant of Law. But this does not describe God's intent for the redeemed.

Much love!