Is the Judgment Seat of Christ separate from the Great White Throne Judgment?

[Scott Downey]

No, they aren't. Rev 19 promises a rule over the nations after Armageddon which is Premill.

Yes they are all killed. A more realistic POV for a pre mill is a lot of babies are born after Christ's return by married couples having children.
As in not all saints are resurrected, some are never resurrected. That is what they think happens, not all saints are changed at the appearing of Christ, they stay flesh and blood, never getting a glorified body like He has. I really strongly disagree with their POV, and makes no sense from the NT POV.

They always look backwards to the OT scriptures for their views.

 

[JohnDB]

This is the exact forum to discuss subjects like you referenced. I don't know what he's talking about, but he's wrong. Maybe he forgot what forum he was on.

It's not that whatsoever.

Each piece of papyrus was 9-13 obols per scroll. (A-4 in width...lg paperback size sheets but longer)
6 obols to the denarius....which a drachma was 95%-85% of a denarius. Parchment went for 10-20 Denarius per same size sheet as papyrus. John would not have had any access to any parchment on Patmos. There was a complete shortage of papyrus (usually made in Pergamos, where the throne of Satan is. ) until 47 AD and it had been rationed to keep contracts, commerce, and Roman edicts/orders flowing.

So....God being perfectly efficient....
The expense of paper/papyrus John was spending to write this section alone was of extreme importance. And the relevance for people then to know had to change lives and lifestyles. And the same should be true today as well. (Although most assuredly it was instantly copied onto parchment as soon as it was received....more expense)

So, when I talk about relevance it's about the expenditures of a lot of wealth for relatively poor people. (One denarius for one 12 hr day's wages was a fairly common wage throughout the Roman Empire)

So....
What I'm asking is how does this information or interpretation of this section change lives? That's relevance. The correct forum is the least of my concerns. (I'm not a mod who might care)

AND
THAT is the key piece of information that would convince me more about someone's interpretation of prophesy than their interpretation itself. God is perfectly efficient....no wasted words....ever; Not in scripture or when Jesus spoke to the Apostles or when preaching sermons.

So...that's why I ask for relevance. I'm kinda lost as to the explanations given at this point.

 

[Davidpt]

All born again Christians are New creatures, and therefore, being "the body of Christ", THEY ARE the New Jerusalem, the mother of us ALL who are of faith in the Messiah who was to come, who did come, and who shall come again.

Though, that is true, that is beside the point. Zechariah 14 involves prophecy. And that there has to be some form of logical chronology involved. Some of Zechariah 14 couldn't possibly be pertaining to anything in this present age prior to Christ returning, in any sense. Notice that I said some of ch 14, not all of ch 14.

Clearly, for example, what Zechariah 14:5 records per the following---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee---Jude in the NT also records per the following---Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(Jude 1:14)

Is one going to argue that in Zechariah 14:5 it is not involving His 2nd coming but in Jude 1:14 it is involving His 2nd coming, then expected to be taken seriously?

 

[Davidpt]

All born again Christians are New creatures, and therefore, being "the body of Christ", THEY ARE the New Jerusalem, the mother of us ALL who are of faith in the Messiah who was to come, who did come, and who shall come again.

If we apply Zechariah 14:11 spiritually to the here and now, even that can't work. That verse says that Jerusalem shall be dwelling safely. But if we factor in the beast and fp persecuting the saints, that hardly fits dwelling safely. As if, the fact the persecution is literal and in some cases can lead to literally being killed, it is absurd that that somehow fits dwelling safely.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes they are all killed.

Rev 19 proves that wrong.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

https://www.blueletterbible .org/kjv/rev/19/15/t_conc_1186015

https://biblehub .com/interlinear/revelation/19-15.htm

(remove the spaces before .com and .org in the two links)


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves some mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

 

[NotTheRock]

Matthew 16:27 (KJV)
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Sorry if already said but the KJV use of "reward" is bothersome to me. The Concordant Literal New Testament translates it a bit differently.

27 For the Son of Mankind is about to be coming in the glory of His Father, with His messengers, and then He will be paying each in accord with his practice.

 

[Scott Downey]

Sorry if already said but the KJV use of "reward" is bothersome to me. The Concordant Literal New Testament translates it a bit differently.

27 For the Son of Mankind is about to be coming in the glory of His Father, with His messengers, and then He will be paying each in accord with his practice.

According to how any particular person served Christ in this life, God will pay him in the life to come. Some rewards are earned.

The Parable of the Minas​

11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten [e]minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’

15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’

20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are [f]an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’

24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ 25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) 26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”

 

[Earburner]

According to how any particular person served Christ in this life, God will pay him in the life to come. Some rewards are earned.

The Parable of the Minas​

11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten [e]minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’

15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ 19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’

20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are [f]an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’

24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’ 25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) 26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”

Mat. 25
[29] For unto *every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That parable is talking about the Gift of the Holy Spirit, of whom is the very vehicle of the Gift of *Eternal Life.
Surely, that *reward is greater than that of ruling over cities??
But, if you think otherwise, then maybe you lust after more than what God has promised through the death and resurrection of His Son.

Rom. 8:8-9; 1 John 5:11-13.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not that whatsoever.

Each piece of papyrus was 9-13 obols per scroll. (A-4 in width...lg paperback size sheets but longer)
6 obols to the denarius....which a drachma was 95%-85% of a denarius. Parchment went for 10-20 Denarius per same size sheet as papyrus. John would not have had any access to any parchment on Patmos. There was a complete shortage of papyrus (usually made in Pergamos, where the throne of Satan is. ) until 47 AD and it had been rationed to keep contracts, commerce, and Roman edicts/orders flowing.

So....God being perfectly efficient....
The expense of paper/papyrus John was spending to write this section alone was of extreme importance. And the relevance for people then to know had to change lives and lifestyles. And the same should be true today as well. (Although most assuredly it was instantly copied onto parchment as soon as it was received....more expense)

So, when I talk about relevance it's about the expenditures of a lot of wealth for relatively poor people. (One denarius for one 12 hr day's wages was a fairly common wage throughout the Roman Empire)

So....
What I'm asking is how does this information or interpretation of this section change lives? That's relevance. The correct forum is the least of my concerns. (I'm not a mod who might care)

AND
THAT is the key piece of information that would convince me more about someone's interpretation of prophesy than their interpretation itself. God is perfectly efficient....no wasted words....ever; Not in scripture or when Jesus spoke to the Apostles or when preaching sermons.

So...that's why I ask for relevance. I'm kinda lost as to the explanations given at this point.

I have no idea of what you're talking about. All I know is that the topic of judgment and the timing of it certainly is a viable topic to discuss in this forum and that's all I'm saying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my view, and not in the view of most Premils, is because that is where the new Jerusalem will be. No doubt in my mind, some of Zechariah 14 is pertaining to the new Jerusalem, meaning after it comes down from God out of heaven. I basically see the NHNE as a process that begins with the 2nd coming. And that you can't have the NHNE without a new Jerusalem.

There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that there could be sin in the heavenly new Jerusalem in the NHNE. Nowhere is the ushering in of the NHNE described as a process. So, I can't take your view seriously.

Initially the worshiping of God began in Jerusalem but then spread beyond Jerusalem. But that is in this age and involves doing this spiritually.

Why would God change it back to how it used to be? I would compare that to the belief many Premills have of God going back to animal sacrifices again. It makes no sense to go back to the old ways that were seen as inferior.

But once Christ returns, He has to dwell somewhere. And it certainly isn't going to be in Dallas, TX nor NYC, etc. Obviously then, He will literally be dwelling in the region He was born.

Why can't people still worship God in spirit and in truth even if Christ was on the earth somewhere?

And what most Premils and even some Amils don't factor in, is, that the only Jerusalem that can fit Zechariah 14:11 is the NJ, and that verse 11 is meaning during the same time period Zechariah 14:16 is meaning. After all, it is ludicrous, concerning Jerusalem presently in the middle east, that the following fits it, keeping in mind that what is meant is meaning for forever--- and there shall be no more utter destruction ; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

At least you recognize that much, but I can't buy this idea that the new Jerusalem and NHNE could possibly have sin occur in them. Peter said the new heavens and new earth will be a place where righteousness dwells (2 Peter 3:13). If wickedness dwells there, also, then it would be pointless for him to say that.

 

[JohnDB]

I have no idea of what you're talking about. All I know is that the topic of judgment and the timing of it certainly is a viable topic to discuss in this forum and that's all I'm saying.

And it's based on scripture....which has a large/macro concept it's explicitly designed to tell people. I'm asking "what does it tell us outside of the micro view of half of one verse?"

 

[Scott Downey]

Mat. 25
[29] For unto *every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That parable is talking about the Gift of the Holy Spirit, of whom is the very vehicle of the Gift of *Eternal Life.
Surely, that *reward is greater than that of ruling over cities??
But, if you think otherwise, then maybe you lust after more than what God has promised through the death and resurrection of His Son.

Rom. 8:8-9; 1 John 5:11-13.

Rewards God will give to each one according to His own labor in the kingdom of God, yes, all people build upon the foundation which is Christ. Rewards are earned, and they will be given out by God on the Day of judgment. For believers the work of Christ is a baseline, meaning their individual salvation is the work of God.

1 Cor 3

Watering, Working, Warning​

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Earburner]

Rewards God will give to each one according to His own labor in the kingdom of God, yes, all people build upon the foundation which is Christ. Rewards are earned, and they will be given out by God on the Day of judgment. For believers the work of Christ is a baseline, meaning their individual salvation is the work of God.

1 Cor 3

Watering, Working, Warning​

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In Rom. 12:1, Do you present yourself as a living sacrifice for the Lord to perform His own works of Righteousness through you, or are you performing your own works of righteousness by you, hoping for His approval of your sacrifice?

1 Cor. 3:13 ....and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.