Is the Judgment Seat of Christ separate from the Great White Throne Judgment?

[CTK]

What about the great horde of wicked tares following the devil, where do they come from during the 1000 years long reign?

Their number is as the sand of the seashore in Rev

What about the great horde of wicked tares following the devil, where do they come from during the 1000 years long reign?

Their number is as the sand of the seashore in Rev 20.

That is a great question / observation and one that I have been confused about for some time. I have only come up with one answer, and if you might comment on it or offer another that would be great to think about.

If you notice I have numbered each of the steps or movements and have purposely numbered the post 1000 years events with the same number - 5. So, 5 a, b, and c, are happening or present together at the same time - after the 1000 years. And the reason I placed satan being thrown into the lake of fire before the judgement of the many is because in Genesis, after satan corrupted Adam, God told us He would deal with him first -Genesis 3:15, and then God addressed Adam in 3:17-19. Thus, they who rejected God and satan would be together after the 1000 years but satan would be destroyed first.

Look forward to your comments...thanks.

 

[Scott Downey]

That is a great question / observation and one that I have been confused about for some time. I have only come up with one answer, and if you might comment on it or offer another that would be great to think about.

If you notice I have numbered each of the steps or movements and have purposely numbered the post 1000 years events with the same number - 5. So, 5 a, b, and c, are happening or present together at the same time - after the 1000 years. And the reason I placed satan being thrown into the lake of fire before the judgement of the many is because in Genesis, after satan corrupted Adam, God told us He would deal with him first -Genesis 3:15, and then God addressed Adam in 3:17-19. Thus, they who rejected God and satan would be together after the 1000 years but satan would be destroyed first.

Look forward to your comments...thanks.

Flesh and blood people only appear one way, by being born of 2 flesh and blood parents.
So from a pre mill view, the saints who reign with Christ on earth also must be flesh and blood people.
And they must also have billions of babies, that is a lot of conceiving going on, and a lot of marriages taking place through many generations. Which means believers are not all changed to be like His glorious body when Christ returns, all the living raptured saints are not resurrected. They marry and have children, and their kids have kids etc...

I actually am not a pre mill. I believe all who are Christ's at His appearing and kingdom are changed to be like His glorious body.
Which IMO, break the pre-mill pov.

Philippians 3 for context on that

Our Citizenship in Heaven​

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

And 1 Cor 15 on all believers being changed at the resurrection on the Last Day

Our Final Victory​

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

****************
Not all sleep as in died in the Lord at His return, some were alive to be caught up together with Him in the air.
But we shall all be changed, as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so there can not be a vast number born during such a 1000 year reign.

The trumpet of God sounds at Christ's return, the dead in Christ rise, and they and us still living in the flesh and blood body, we are all changed together to have glorified incorruptible bodies like He has. And then we reign with Him on the NEW earth.

 

[CTK]

Flesh and blood people only appear one way, by being born of 2 flesh and blood parents.
So from a pre mill view, the saints who reign with Christ on earth also must be flesh and blood people.
And they must also have billions of babies, that is a lot of conceiving going on, and a lot of marriages taking place through many generations. Which means believers are not all changed to be like His glorious body when Christ returns, all the living raptured saints are not resurrected. They marry and have children, and their kids have kids etc...

I actually am not a pre mill. I believe all who are Christ's at His appearing and kingdom are changed to be like His glorious body.
Which IMO, break the pre-mill pov.

Philippians 3 for context on that

Our Citizenship in Heaven​

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

And 1 Cor 15 on all believers being changed at the resurrection on the Last Day

Our Final Victory​

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

****************
Not all sleep as in died in the Lord at His return, some were alive to be caught up together with Him in the air.
But we shall all be changed, as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so there can not be a vast number born during such a 1000 year reign.

The trumpet of God sounds at Christ's return, the dead in Christ rise, and they and us still living in the flesh and blood body, we are all changed together to have glorified incorruptible bodies like He has. And then we reign with Him on the NEW earth.

Thanks for your response. Unless I am not understanding your comment, here is what I think I see within your response:

There are two sets of people at the end of time - those that are dead at His coming that will be raised from the graves to be with Him for the 1000 years. Secondly, those that are still alive on the earth at His return will also follow them into the air and be with Him for the 1000 years. So ALL in Christ are now with Him during the millenium.

The other group is also comprised of those who have already died and they rejected God before their death. Those that were alive at His return that rejected Jesus would be destroyed by His presence. Now, we have all of those who rejected God and His Messiah in the ground for the 1000 years.

After the millenium, God will raise up ALL of those who rejected Him to be judged. Satan will be brought out of the Abyss and sent into the lake of fire. Then, ALL of those who rejected God will be judged and also thrown into the lake of fire...

Do you agree?

 

[dremnant]

Ha ha! Before you could expose anything... you would first have to understand Bible teaching to start with! You do not understand Bible teaching directly from The Bible as written. Instead you reveal that you are following some FANATICAL OCCULT GROUP that TWISTS what The Bible teaches as written.

By the way, are you a JEW? Are you a follower of the Jew's religion called Judaism?

I don't know what you are suffering from...but thank you for your service.

 

[ewq1938]

What about the great horde of wicked tares following the devil, where do they come from during the 1000 years long reign?

Their number is as the sand of the seashore in Rev 20.

They came from the same place, Earth. They lived in the Millennium and were free from satan's deceptions but that changes when satan is released from his prison.

 

[ewq1938]

I actually am not a pre mill. I believe all who are Christ's at His appearing and kingdom are changed to be like His glorious body.
Which IMO, break the pre-mill pov.

You aren't breaking anything as that is already the Premill position. Welcome to Premill lol.

 

[ewq1938]

After the millenium, God will raise up ALL of those who rejected Him to be judged. Satan will be brought out of the Abyss and sent into the lake of fire.

He would have been released from there right when the thousand years was over, then he raises an army and it is defeated at Jerusalem and only at that time is satan cast into the LOF. Satan is not taken from the pit directly to the LOF.

 

[Earburner]

You aren't breaking anything as that is already the Premill position. Welcome to Premill lol.

No...you don't understand the flip side of the Amil view, when ALL the saints are redeemed.
In that same Day of Jesus' Glorious return in flaming fire, ALL the living wicked (KJV- 2 Thes. 1:7-10), and all the graves included, are burned up and destroyed in molten lava, aka the Lake of Fire.

 

[JohnDB]

Many bible teachers are claiming the believers will be facing the Judgment Seat of Christ, while the unbelievers will be facing the Great White Throne judgment. It is also being taught that these judgments shall take place separately. Does the scriptures support that teaching? Let's see what the Bible says...

Ok....
You forgot something that is of utmost importance on this subject.

RELEVANCE

Why should people care about this subject?
How does knowledge of this subject affect our relationship with God?

 

[dremnant]

Ok....
You forgot something that is of utmost importance on this subject.

RELEVANCE

Why should people care about this subject?
How does knowledge of this subject affect our relationship with God?

Are you saying this is not the right forum to discuss subjects like these? Did I come to the wrong place?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No...you don't understand the flip side of the Amil view, when ALL the saints are redeemed.
In that same Day of Jesus' Glorious return in flaming fire, ALL the living wicked (KJV- 2 Thes. 1:7-10), and all the graves included, are burned up and destroyed in molten lava, aka the Lake of Fire.

Right. But, he thinks some mortal wicked will somehow survive the fire that will come down on the entire earth when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-12) and they will populate the earth for a thousand years. No, that's not possible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok....
You forgot something that is of utmost importance on this subject.

RELEVANCE

Why should people care about this subject?
How does knowledge of this subject affect our relationship with God?

What kind of questions are these? This is the eschatology forum and his comments and questions are quite valid and relevant here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you saying this is not the right forum to discuss subjects like these? Did I come to the wrong place?

This is the exact forum to discuss subjects like you referenced. I don't know what he's talking about, but he's wrong. Maybe he forgot what forum he was on.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You aren't breaking anything as that is already the Premill position. Welcome to Premill lol.

All Amills and some Premills (only post-tribs) believe that we will all be changed to put on bodily immortality when Jesus comes, so to act like only Premills believe that is ignorant.

 

[Earburner]

Right. But, he thinks some mortal wicked will somehow survive the fire that will come down on the entire earth when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-12) and they will populate the earth for a thousand years. No, that's not possible.

Amen.
The vehicle of Eternal Life is the Gift of the Holy Spirit of God.
Whosoever does not HAVE the Spirit of Christ is none of His. Rom.8:8-9; 1 John 5:11-13.

In the Day of Jesus' return as King of kings, He will suddenly appear from heaven in all His Immortal Glory, in flaming fire.
Therefore, ALL who do not HAVE Christ within them, it is impossible for them to remain alive in their mortality, and if dead, they cannot be resurrected into mortal existence again, never mind that of Eternal Life.

 

[ewq1938]

ALL the living wicked (KJV- 2 Thes. 1:7-10), and all the graves included, are burned up and destroyed in molten lava, aka the Lake of Fire.

No, they aren't. Rev 19 promises a rule over the nations after Armageddon which is Premill.

 

[Davidpt]

Can you explain why people would again be required to go to Jerusalem to worship in light of what Jesus said here....

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Why do you think that the time will come when what Jesus said here will no longer be true? Why would God change it so that people were not required to go to Jerusalem to worship Him and instead worship Him in spirit and in truth only to change things back to how they used to be again?

In my view, and not in the view of most Premils, is because that is where the new Jerusalem will be. No doubt in my mind, some of Zechariah 14 is pertaining to the new Jerusalem, meaning after it comes down from God out of heaven. I basically see the NHNE as a process that begins with the 2nd coming. And that you can't have the NHNE without a new Jerusalem.

Initially the worshiping of God began in Jerusalem but then spread beyond Jerusalem. But that is in this age and involves doing this spiritually. But once Christ returns, He has to dwell somewhere. And it certainly isn't going to be in Dallas, TX nor NYC, etc. Obviously then, He will literally be dwelling in the region He was born. And what most Premils and even some Amils don't factor in, is, that the only Jerusalem that can fit Zechariah 14:11 is the NJ, and that verse 11 is meaning during the same time period Zechariah 14:16 is meaning. After all, it is ludicrous, concerning Jerusalem presently in the middle east, that the following fits it, keeping in mind that what is meant is meaning for forever--- and there shall be no more utter destruction ; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

 

[JohnDB]

Are you saying this is not the right forum to discuss subjects like these? Did I come to the wrong place?

Not my intention....
You are in the correct forum.

ALL prophesy is given for a purpose....an evangelistic one usually. Others prophesies were more personal in nature unlike the one being discussed which is more broad and general in broadcast.

God does not just "show off" what He knows or ramble about the future. Every prophesy given is perfectly efficient in purpose. So obviously it's not written to the unbelieving....

But prophesy (always bad news) is told to give hope to the Faithful. So they will continue to be faithful (especially those teetering on unbelief)

So....the Spiritual Leadership can point to scriptures and say "See? God told us this and it's true and has come to pass. Be ready to meet God face to face.....just like those who met Jesus face to face before."

That's what I'm saying about relevance. EVERY WORD is precious that God has given us. Every seemingly insignificant word has a high value. And so we often confuse ourselves with micro versus macro viewpoints of interpretation. (And vice versa)

So....I'm asking you the macro viewpoint you have come to as far as relevance for this section. What is it's purpose? It's a fair question.
In Luke, Jesus is recorded telling the story of the prodigal son. But that's the micro view. The macro view was Jesus was retelling and explaining the various types of sin and their effects and difficulty level of forgiving....and the dissertation started sooner than the Prodigal son and went beyond the single parable. The relevance is plain and obvious.
Not so with prophesy. It's relevance is nuanced but it should have some that is obvious. And THATS what I'm asking.

 

[Earburner]

In my view, and not in the view of most Premils, is because that is where the new Jerusalem will be. No doubt in my mind, some of Zechariah 14 is pertaining to the new Jerusalem, meaning after it comes down from God out of heaven. I basically see the NHNE as a process that begins with the 2nd coming. And that you can't have the NHNE without a new Jerusalem.

Initially the worshiping of God began in Jerusalem but then spread beyond Jerusalem. But that is in this age and involves doing this spiritually. But once Christ returns, He has to dwell somewhere. And it certainly isn't going to be in Dallas, TX nor NYC, etc. Obviously then, He will literally be dwelling in the region He was born. And what most Premils and even some Amils don't factor in, is, that the only Jerusalem that can fit Zechariah 14:11 is the NJ, and that verse 11 is meaning during the same time period Zechariah 14:16 is meaning. After all, it is ludicrous, concerning Jerusalem presently in the middle east, that the following fits it, keeping in mind that what is meant is meaning for forever--- and there shall be no more utter destruction ; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

All born again Christians are New creatures, and therefore, being "the body of Christ", THEY ARE the New Jerusalem, the mother of us ALL who are of faith in the Messiah who was to come, who did come, and who shall come again.

 

[PGS11]

He made the sacrifice he dies for everyone's sins he decides what judgment will be for all of humanity.All judgment was handed to Christ who is God.