Q for JW- KIEW?

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PS95

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Apparently, you need to fix your vision, as you see in error. I am not a JW.

As to Romans 6:7? The Apostle is not speaking of original sin – the transgression which brought the death penalty upon the race: he is addressing those who had passed from death unto life through Christ, and who now, at the time of his writing, were New Creatures in Christ Jesus. He is representing sin as the great taskmaster which previously held them in slavery to wickedness, and he exhorts them now to consider themselves as though they had gotten free from that slavery to the taskmaster in as full and complete a sense as a slave would be free from his master if he died. You will notice this thought running through the theme of this chapter, as for instance in verses 12,14,16,17,18, and this is explained to be figurative language in verse 19.

You'll notice that this is not a question of sin having dominion over the New Creature, but a question of sin still having dominion over the flesh, the earthen vessel. Carrying on the same argument, the Apostle says (8:10), "If Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness." Then he exhorts that it be not satisfactory to us merely to count our bodies dead to sin, so that we will not permit them to serve sin, but that the new mind in us shall take control and actuate these mortal bodies, and make of them servants of the new mind, servants of righteousness, servants of Christ. He assures us that the Spirit of God which was powerful enough to raise our Lord Jesus actually from the dead is powerful enough, if we lay hold of it properly, to permit such a quickening of our mortal bodies to newness of life.

Man can pay his penalty in death; but when the penalty has been inflicted to the full there is nothing of man left: hence it means his utter and everlasting destruction. To suppose anything left after the penalty had been inflicted, would be to suppose some part of him that had not been condemned; but we know that the language of Genesis is, "Thou shalt surely die," and that the law was stated to be, "The soul that sinneth it shall die." We see, then, that nothing of the man, nothing of the being, is exempted from the penalty, and so long as the man lay under the penalty he could have no right to life to all eternity.

There is no provision for a second life except through a redemption accomplished by our Lord Jesus – the work being finished at Calvary, and subsequently accepted of the Father, and his acceptance manifested by the outpouring of the holy Spirit at Pentecost. But God did not deal with the man to acquit him. God merely passes the man as a purchased possession over to the care of his Redeemer, Jesus, – Justice giving to Jesus a full title to the man, and all the rights, etc., which he ever enjoyed.

You will perceive that this gives the man no rights of his own, but commits all things to the Son. We must therefore inquire of the Son how he proposes to deal with the purchased possession. Briefly we understand the testimony of the Word to be that the Son, during the Millennial Age, will judge the world by, through and in conjunction with his elect Church, and that all shall have the opportunity of coming up to human perfection under the chastisements and disciplines of the Millennial Age, and that failing to improve these blessed opportunities they will be cut off in the Second Death. Some of the Scriptures bearing upon the subject would seem to imply punishment for misdeeds of the present life – but we believe only for such misdeeds as were committed against some degree of light, or against some of the children of light. Those who had no knowledge whatever of the divine arrangement in Christ could have no responsibility in the sense of meriting special punishment, because they were under the original condemnation, and their personal responsibility under the New Covenant could only begin when they came to some degree of knowledge respecting it. However, we can readily see that to whatever extent any violate the laws of nature, they degrade themselves; and that every step downward in the present life, will require effort to retrace it during the Millennial Age.
I just saw that you also edited to to add a reply. Thanks.
We agree on Ro 6:7.
I'm hoping that the Jws will read verses 6:1-10 in context to see that it is not speaking to physical death. So far, as long as this thread has gotten I haven't gotten cooperation with reading a thing. They join verse 7 with verse 23 to say that when we die that is how our sins are paid for. Jws are robbed of Jesus Christ every way possible by the GB. It's a horrible & indefensable teaching!
 

Brakelite

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The sanctuary services of the OT, including the priesthood, the feast days, and all the various sacrifices as well as the furniture within the sanctuary itself, all held special significance and meaning, and represented the gospel for Israel, to be honoured until the time of Messiah. Type was to operate until Anti type came and fulfilled the prophetic picture.
One aspect of those services was particularly poignant, and essential to be honoured and obeyed, for it represented the character of the coming Messiah. At the time of Jesus, the Jewish religious practise had become utterly corrupted and dishonored the requirements as laid out in the laws of Moses. The priests had become mercantile salesmen and operated their stalls within the temple precincts, desecrating the sacred ground, but more than that, they defrauded the people by adding huge profits as moneybrokers, (only temple money was acceptable and needed to be exchanged from common currency) but they also made arbitrary judgements on the purity and suitability of the animals brought for sacrifice. They would judge them as being blemished or imperfect, demand the petitioner exchange the creature for one of their own, (at greater cost) and thus pervert the whole process.
The animal did have to be acceptable. It had to be a clean animal. It had to be without blemish, no scar tissue, no disfigurement, no wounds, no defects. The reason was because the sacrifice had to reflect the nature and character of the Messiah. It was true than only a perfect sacrifice was acceptable to God. Sinless. Without fault. Holy and without blemish. Thus was Jesus the perfect sacrifice, and worthy to carry the sins of mankind, and be accepted of the Father as a suitable redemption price for the lost sinner.
We cannot atone for our own sin through death. We are sinful creatures, corrupt, unholy, defiled. We do not meet the criteria to die for our own sin, let alone anyone else's. We are sinners. And being sinners, and dying in our sin, we cannot hope for a resurrection except the resurrection of the damned, to be finally judged and meet the second death which is destruction. Only Jesus Christ can atone for anyone's sin.
KJV 1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
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PS95

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It is about physical death.
No. It is not. Please read it again in context.

Romans 6:1-10 -----------------( LATER we can JUMP to v 23!)
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.


5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

7
for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
10Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.


I think that's enough to show the proper context, so JWs can see that Paul is not speaking about our physical deaths at all, but he is referring to our death to sin and rebirth to life in this present time!!!!
 
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Keiw

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Do you want to discuss why they are not FDS? it's clear they are not. It's a history of lies, Keiw. I know you think that. That's the kingpin- getting you to believe that you NEED them. You don't! Jesus will take over and show you!! He is alive and He died for your sins. He will help you to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh so you can be more like Him!! He will baptize you into His death- make you no longer a slave to sin. he will free you! Very few come to Him- instead they rely on religion. It's not about following the rules of a religion. It's about following HIm!!
History of lies= God is a trinity( reality, it is satan posing to get worship, so all serving it are worshipping satan)--There is literal eternal suffering, the holy spirit is a living being. All go to heaven, all should partake of the emblems of the Lords evening meal= all lies.
 

Keiw

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No. It is not. Please read it again in context.

Romans 6:1-10 -----------------( LATER we can JUMP to v 23!)
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.


5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

7
for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
10Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.


I think that's enough to show the proper context, so JWs can see that Paul is not speaking about our physical deaths at all, but he is referring to our death to sin and rebirth to life in this present time!!!!
Apostates twist it all into oblivion= every trinity religion and all mislead by them.
 

PS95

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History of lies= God is a trinity( reality, it is satan posing to get worship, so all serving it are worshipping satan)--There is literal eternal suffering, the holy spirit is a living being. All go to heaven, all should partake of the emblems of the Lords evening meal= all lies.
Will you ever address the subject? Read Romans 6 with me?
 
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Johann

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Thank you Johann. Praise God! I'm getting tired though. I feel like we could go on for 10 years and Ro 6 still wont be read in context. The GB has such control over their minds.
I will keep a watch here, just to see where this is going.
Stay strong.
Johann.
 
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Keiw

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Will you ever address the subject? Read Romans 6 with me?
I did address it--1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21, false god worship--these are the sins stopped by a true follower. -- The wages of sin = death, thus all sin all die and pay those wages for themselves.
I wont ever listen to one standing in opposition to Jesus' appointed teachers. Its the same as standing in opposition to Jesus and God=Luke 10:16)
 

Brakelite

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No, i have already answered you. You won't accept it. thus end of story.
Sadly, deception is like an addiction to heroine. You deny you are deceived, therefore refuse to acknowledge anything that may enlighten you to the truth...even scripture itself. I believe you are bound because you fail to acknowledge the truth regarding the identity and character of Jesus. I'm not talking about the trinity. I'm talking about Who Jesus is, and what the scriptures declare as to Who He is. If you knew Jesus, He would guide you into truth. Did you know that the scripture indentified Jesus as Jehovah? I am not saying He is the Father... He is the Son, and He shares His Father's name.
 
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PS95

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I did address it--1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21, false god worship--these are the sins stopped by a true follower. -- The wages of sin = death, thus all sin all die and pay those wages for themselves.
I wont ever listen to one standing in opposition to Jesus' appointed teachers. Its the same as standing in opposition to Jesus and God=Luke 10:16)
NO YOU HAVE NOT! LOL You're making me crazy!! Romans 6 has nothing to do with 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Gal 5! I even posted all of those verses for you. Of course sin is wrong! duh. That's NOT WHAT RO 6 IS ABOUT & YOU KNOW IT! :running:
just go thru the first 10 verses of Ch 6 with me? don't run away! :running::running::running::running::running::running:
 

PS95

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Sadly, deception is like an addiction to heroine. You deny you are deceived, therefore refuse to acknowledge anything that may enlighten you to the truth...even scripture itself. I believe you are bound to the truth because you fail to acknowledge the truth regarding the identity and character of Jesus. I'm not talking about the trinity. I'm talking about Who Jesus is, and what the scriptures declare as to Who He is. If you knew Jesus, He would guide you into truth. Did you know that the scripture indentified Jesus as Jehovah? I am not saying He is the Father... He is the Son, and He shares His Father's name.
I would really hate for this to go down the trinity road but Keiw would love that, and especially at this point. anything to avoid my question. I really need a break anyway. lol
 

hies

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I did address it--1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21, false god worship--these are the sins stopped by a true follower. -- The wages of sin = death, thus all sin all die and pay those wages for themselves.
I wont ever listen to one standing in opposition to Jesus' appointed teachers. Its the same as standing in opposition to Jesus and God=Luke 10:16)
Interesting that you mention 1 Cor 6:9-11, because the self-rightouesness that comes from living by the law is pride and worship of yourself, which is idolatry. You don't accept God's free gift, rather you boast of your ability to keep the commands given to you by the JW organization, and call those who do accept Christ's free gift apostates. This self-righteousness of trying to be saved by keeping the law is what the Pharisees did, and is what got Jesus killed.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” - Galatians 2:21

Grace means undeserved favour. You do not do anything for it. If you have to do something for a gift, it is not a gift.
 
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PS95

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Interesting that you mention 1 Cor 6:9-11, because the self-rightouesness that comes from living by the law is pride and worship of yourself, which is idolatry. You don't accept God's free gift, rather you boast of your ability to keep the commands given to you by the JW organization, and call those who do accept Christ's free gift apostates. This self-righteousness of trying to be saved by keeping the law is what the Pharisees did, and is what got Jesus killed.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” - Galatians 2:21

Grace means undeserved favour. You do not do anything for it. If you have to do something for a gift, it is not a gift.
and before you start Keiw- heis is NOT saying that allows him/her to practice sinning!
 

Keiw

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Sadly, deception is like an addiction to heroine. You deny you are deceived, therefore refuse to acknowledge anything that may enlighten you to the truth...even scripture itself. I believe you are bound because you fail to acknowledge the truth regarding the identity and character of Jesus. I'm not talking about the trinity. I'm talking about Who Jesus is, and what the scriptures declare as to Who He is. If you knew Jesus, He would guide you into truth. Did you know that the scripture indentified Jesus as Jehovah? I am not saying He is the Father... He is the Son, and He shares His Father's name.
Psalm 110:1-quoted at Matt 22:44= The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord( Jesus) sit at my right hand until i make your enemies your footstool= 2 beings there-1 is Jehovah= God, one is Jesus a totally separate being who is not Jehovah. One CANNOT sit at their own right hand.
 

Keiw

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Interesting that you mention 1 Cor 6:9-11, because the self-rightouesness that comes from living by the law is pride and worship of yourself, which is idolatry. You don't accept God's free gift, rather you boast of your ability to keep the commands given to you by the JW organization, and call those who do accept Christ's free gift apostates. This self-righteousness of trying to be saved by keeping the law is what the Pharisees did, and is what got Jesus killed.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” - Galatians 2:21

Grace means undeserved favour. You do not do anything for it. If you have to do something for a gift, it is not a gift.
Jesus words to those who believe and are told they are Christian will hear these words as judgement=Matt 7:21-23--no matter what they think they did for Jesus out of love for him--Where is their gift? Oh one who works iniquity= practices a sin or willfull sin)--Will NOT get grace--Heb 10:26 is clear on that-There is no sacrifice left for ANY who practice a sin( or willfull sin)

If your teachers are not teachings these truths= RUN FROM THEM. Ear ticklers for a tithe do not teach truth.