Purpose of the Millennium

[Naomi25]

And I say, you don't realize how misguided you are with that thinking.

Isa 21:9
9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen"; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.
KJV

Rev 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen", that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
KJV

Notice that Revelation 14:8 quotes the exact phrase, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" that was said back in the days of Isaiah the prophet when historical Babylon fell.

Is that just a coincidence? Hardly.

That is to let us know that God is using the 'past'... to show things yet to happen in the 'future'. The old Babylon history serves as a blueprint for the future, even things yet in OUR future.

Now what was it you were saying about there being no relationship between the past and future prophecy?

Please do take the time to look back to where this started. Plucking out a sentence of mine and leaping upon it like a cat assaulting a squeezy toy is hardly helpful in a conversation.
I said it wasn't helpful to try and build a decent picture of the future from a PRE-FALL Eden, as there is really not much detail given to us about that time.
Every time you provide a verse that puts the time period solidly AFTER the fall, you show you didn't comprehend me. At all. Please rectify that before continuing the conversation.

 

[Davy]

Who's making assumptions now? I don't attend 10 different churches, so I couldn't very well be espousing 'out of context' doctrines by them, could I?
In point of fact, if you read back, all I'm saying is that trying to build a picture of what the earth will be like at Christ's return based solely upon what scripture says about life pre-garden fall....good luck with getting much detail on that. Hence, people end up leaning on speculation. We have a few hints and references, but not enough to flesh out any sort of real doctrine; for back then, and certainly not for 'mirroring' it forward.



Again, if you had taken note of what I was referring to, it was the time period BEFORE the fall in the garden. That was the period bought up, anyway.
As for the time period AFTER the fall, I have never, ever denied that God uses allegory or metaphor...in fact, of the many people on this forum, I'm often the one accused of using them too often.
The problem with metaphor and allegory, however, is that one mustn't sling them around willy nilly. And even when used, they still must be used in context.
Consider the example you gave above with Tyre. It sounds very much like it could be talking of the fall of Satan. And in part I suspect that is where it deliberately pulls our mind. It wants us to use that comparison...but it is still very much talking about the fall of a city. Because while it calls on us to make the comparison between the fall of a once great, mighty and beauty angel and an echoing city, it still leads us, at the end of the passage, to where we must abandon the imagry of Satan and land entirely where a fallen city must go. Satan has not yet been exposed before Kings or consumed by fire and turned to ashes by all who witnessed it. That did happen to Tyre. And thus through the clever use of imagry we see that, like Satan, having everything; wealth, success, beauty and power...can not and will not save us if we turn from God. In the end only death, devestation and ruin will come. Like is in store for Satan.
So...does the passage refer to Satan? Perhaps. Can we use that passage to determine what Satan was like pre-fall and therefore come to some conclusions of what the future post-parousia will be like? No.
The OT is full of type and shadow metaphor and imagry, this is absolutely true. But I still feel strongly that these types and shadows will only point to two things: the coming of Christ the first time, and then his second coming that ushers in that 'age to come', where all things are made new.

Well, it's obvious you learned absolutely... nothing from what I posted, like trying to reach a brick wall.

 

[Keraz]

Well, it's obvious you learned absolutely... nothing from what I posted, like trying to reach a brick wall.

The thing is, Davy; no one is going to believe you unless what you say is soundly based on scripture.
There is far too much Church doctrine and teachings around that deceives and confuses people. Jesus, Matthew 24:4 and Paul; 2 Timothy 4:3-4, tell us this will happen.
Seems that rather many have not been careful enough and they have been taken in by false teachings.

I will start a new thread, to discuss what the next prophesied event will be.

 

[Naomi25]

Well, it's obvious you learned absolutely... nothing from what I posted, like trying to reach a brick wall.

Oh yes, make it MY fault you consistently took something I said COMPLETELY out of context and then ran with it like it was the baton from a race.
It's not all that hard to admit you did an oopsie, and then continue with the conversation. I've done it myself on occasion. But flogging a dead horse for all it's worth just to save face....well...it doesn't really work...because all our conversations are laid out in black and white behind us for the world to see.

 

[Davy]

The thing is, Davy; no one is going to believe you unless what you say is soundly based on scripture.
There is far too much Church doctrine and teachings around that deceives and confuses people. Jesus, Matthew 24:4 and Paul; 2 Timothy 4:3-4, tell us this will happen.
Seems that rather many have not been careful enough and they have been taken in by false teachings.

I will start a new thread, to discuss what the next prophesied event will be.

Not interested in your view on that. You have to first learn to practice what you preach before giving anyone prophetic lessons from Scripture.

 

[Davy]

Oh yes, make it MY fault you consistently took something I said COMPLETELY out of context and then ran with it like it was the baton from a race.
It's not all that hard to admit you did an oopsie, and then continue with the conversation. I've done it myself on occasion. But flogging a dead horse for all it's worth just to save face....well...it doesn't really work...because all our conversations are laid out in black and white behind us for the world to see.

When you should be listening and studying you instead try to improve your failed position, because you cannot take back what you said here:

Naomi 25 said:
"The first age is certainly an interesting topic of discussion. But, I'm not sure it actually impinges on this topic in any meaningful way. What is done, is done, and clearly there is no going back and changing it. The conversation is about what is future and what the bible says about it. I think the bible, when talking about the 'future' speaks of 'this age', which we must include because we are still in it, and 'the age to come' which is the real one of interest.
But I suppose, even given the 'first age', there still doesn't leave any room for this 'millennial' age...a strange hybrid sort of age which is stuck between heaven and earth; sharing some qualities of both, but not really fully embracing or ridding the best or worst of the new or old."

That's nothing but confusion, "... doesn't leave any room for this 'millennial' age... a strange hybrid sort of age which is stuck between heaven and earth; sharing some qualities of both, but not really fully embracing or ridding the best or worst of the new or old."

Your statements reveal you think 'now', today, is Christ's Millennium. It is not. It has not yet begun, because Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect is for AFTER His literal bodily return to this earth. You've been duped by men's doctrines about the time of Christ's Millennial reign of the future.

I showed from God's Word about the return of conditions first mentioned in Genesis, like God's River of the waters of life. I showed how death for flesh man began in Genesis, and is destroyed in Revelation, revealing direct parallels between the old and new. Thus I gave ample evidence for your failed thinking revealed in your statements like the ones above. And I stand on that evidence.

 

[Naomi25]

When you should be listening and studying you instead try to improve your failed position, because you cannot take back what you said here:

Naomi 25 said:
"The first age is certainly an interesting topic of discussion. But, I'm not sure it actually impinges on this topic in any meaningful way. What is done, is done, and clearly there is no going back and changing it. The conversation is about what is future and what the bible says about it. I think the bible, when talking about the 'future' speaks of 'this age', which we must include because we are still in it, and 'the age to come' which is the real one of interest.
But I suppose, even given the 'first age', there still doesn't leave any room for this 'millennial' age...a strange hybrid sort of age which is stuck between heaven and earth; sharing some qualities of both, but not really fully embracing or ridding the best or worst of the new or old."

I have absolutely no desire to 'take it back' or the need to do so. In fact, thank you for bringing it forward so we may take a look at where it began and how you have, consistently, made a mistake in your conversation to date.
You have consistenly tried to 'take me to task' for claiming that we cannot look to things in the OT when looking to the future. Specifically, the millennial period.
If we look at my original answer, you will see that you first objected to my 'two age model' spoken of in the bible by pointing out 'the first age'...or the period of time before the fall.
And you can see that my answer has been...has always been, that there is not enough info in scripture about THAT time, the pre fall time, to be able to put together any sort of doctrine or idea of what it was like for us to be ABLE to then look forward and see if what the bible is saying about the future is like it.
I then say that even with or without this "first age", I still maintain that the bible doesn't leave room for an 'on earth' millennial age. In other words, I go back to the 'two age model' again...'this age' and the 'age to come'.
In other words...I don't say anything, positive or negative, about the fact that the OT uses type and shadow in reference to Christ's first and second coming and even at times, in reference to the eternal things.
So, basically, you saw things in my posts that weren't there, and then you ran with them.
That, my friend, makes it your error, not mine.
So, please check yourself before telling me I need to "spend time listening and studying".

That's nothing but confusion, "... doesn't leave any room for this 'millennial' age... a strange hybrid sort of age which is stuck between heaven and earth; sharing some qualities of both, but not really fully embracing or ridding the best or worst of the new or old."

Your statements reveal you think 'now', today, is Christ's Millennium. It is not. It has not yet begun, because Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect is for AFTER His literal bodily return to this earth. You've been duped by men's doctrines about the time of Christ's Millennial reign of the future.

Darn tooting I do! And I've got the scriptures to back me! We can get into it if you want, but I think we need to get past the other issue first. You seem to get easily confused, so perhaps one thing at a time.

I showed from God's Word about the return of conditions first mentioned in Genesis, like God's River of the waters of life. I showed how death for flesh man began in Genesis, and is destroyed in Revelation, revealing direct parallels between the old and new. Thus I gave ample evidence for your failed thinking revealed in your statements like the ones above. And I stand on that evidence.

The problem is; the river of life flows in the new Jerusalem...not something we see in the Millennial Kingdom. So yes, while that theme repeats, it doens't do it in the way you hope.
Likewise, when death if fully 'put to death'...conquered completely and thrown into the lake of fire, then by definition, we can't be in the Millennium, where death still comes upon people. So again, this cannot be something used to support an earthly kindgom, no matter if it is a repeating motif.
So, you may stand by your claims, but likewise, I stand by mine; the images used in scripture, be they repeating, shadow and type or reality born from them, they still fall into one of two categories; 'this age' or the 'age to come'. That being temporal, or eternal. There is no place for an earthly millennium.

 

[Davy]

I have absolutely no desire to 'take it back' or the need to do so. In fact, thank you for bringing it forward so we may take a look at where it began and how you have, consistently, made a mistake in your conversation to date.
You have consistenly tried to 'take me to task' for claiming that we cannot look to things in the OT when looking to the future. Specifically, the millennial period.
If we look at my original answer, you will see that you first objected to my 'two age model' spoken of in the bible by pointing out 'the first age'...or the period of time before the fall.
And you can see that my answer has been...has always been, that there is not enough info in scripture about THAT time, the pre fall time, to be able to put together any sort of doctrine or idea of what it was like for us to be ABLE to then look forward and see if what the bible is saying about the future is like it.
I then say that even with or without this "first age", I still maintain that the bible doesn't leave room for an 'on earth' millennial age. In other words, I go back to the 'two age model' again...'this age' and the 'age to come'.
In other words...I don't say anything, positive or negative, about the fact that the OT uses type and shadow in reference to Christ's first and second coming and even at times, in reference to the eternal things.
So, basically, you saw things in my posts that weren't there, and then you ran with them.
That, my friend, makes it your error, not mine.
So, please check yourself before telling me I need to "spend time listening and studying".


Darn tooting I do! And I've got the scriptures to back me! We can get into it if you want, but I think we need to get past the other issue first. You seem to get easily confused, so perhaps one thing at a time.


The problem is; the river of life flows in the new Jerusalem...not something we see in the Millennial Kingdom. So yes, while that theme repeats, it doens't do it in the way you hope.
Likewise, when death if fully 'put to death'...conquered completely and thrown into the lake of fire, then by definition, we can't be in the Millennium, where death still comes upon people. So again, this cannot be something used to support an earthly kindgom, no matter if it is a repeating motif.
So, you may stand by your claims, but likewise, I stand by mine; the images used in scripture, be they repeating, shadow and type or reality born from them, they still fall into one of two categories; 'this age' or the 'age to come'. That being temporal, or eternal. There is no place for an earthly millennium.

Just the fact that you believe 'today'... Christ's future Millennial reign is already happening, reveals the depth of confusion from men's doctrines you are on.

1 Peter 5:4-8
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
KJV

Rev 20:2-3
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
KJV

One has to be terribly deceived if they think the devil has been bound in his pit prison today, and not able to deceive the nations. That will ONLY happen at Jesus' future literal bodily return. Just those two Scriptures is all the witnesses needed to show we are not yet in Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. End of debate.

 

[Naomi25]

Just the fact that you believe 'today'... Christ's future Millennial reign is already happening, reveals the depth of confusion from men's doctrines you are on.

Which view is incorrect remains to be seen. I know you believe yours to be true, and I don't fault you for your faithfulness. But likewise, I have arrived where I am due to a lot of time weighing all the scriptures against one another and praying. I feel where I've landed is the best biblical view, with the least amount of problems. In other words, it's the most faithful to the biblical text. The least amount of assumption. Therefore, its not due to 'confusion', but careful consideration and study. A LOT of study.

1 Peter 5:4-8
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
KJV

Rev 20:2-3
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
KJV

One has to be terribly deceived if they think the devil has been bound in his pit prison today, and not able to deceive the nations. That will ONLY happen at Jesus' future literal bodily return. Just those two Scriptures is all the witnesses needed to show we are not yet in Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. End of debate.

It kind of entertains me when the "you have to be crazy if you think the devil is locked away now" card is played. Because it comes from a serious inability to actually read what the text says. Rev 20 TELLS us WHY Satan is being bound. It gives us the condition upon which Satan is being restrained. And it is NOT so he may stop doing everything. So he may be completely and totally taken away from the earth....THAT will be for the lake of fire.


And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. -Revelation 20:2–3

Satan is bound 'so that he might not deceive the nations any longer'.
Deceive them towards what purpose? We are told that as well.

And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. - Revelation 20:7-8

Satan deceives the nations 'in order to gather them to battle against the Saints. That would be Christians. Thus far in human history, although Christians have been the most hated and persecuted group on the planet, no enemy of the Church has managed to gather forces across the earth and move in a concerted effort to erradicate us. That will happen when Satan is released. We can also surmise that the victory that happened on the cross and the binding of Satan to no longer 'deceive' is the strength of the gospel as it goes forth in the world. The gospel is like a fire that spreads throughout the globe, and no amont of lies, persecution or death can stop it. In fact, in countries where those things are highest, the gospel flourishes even more. Satan's deception is useless there. Man tries to stamp it out on his own, but fails every time.

But...this is Revelation, a notouriously difficult book to understand and highly symbolic. Can we find other scriptures that support this notion of Satan being bound during this time, and not later? If so, that would be great support for this view.

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:28-29

The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. -Luke 10:17–19

In these two verses we can see Christ saying that the Kingdom HAD arrived. And that in order for him (Christ) to enter the strongman's house (Satans) and plunder his goods (us), he must first bind the strong man. Christ also tells us he saw the fall of Satan and he marks it and the authority given to his disciples with the going forth of the news of the Kingdom.

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. -1 Peter 3:22

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, -Philippians 2:9

Here we see that RIGHT NOW Christ is ruling and reigning. We don't need to wait for a future time for that to happen. It is already happening. And if we combine this with Matt 12:28 where Jesus says outright that "his kingdom is NOT of this world", is seems fairly clear that Jesus himself is not expecting an earthly Millennial reign.


But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. -1 Corinthians 15:23–24

This wraps it all up very nicely. When Jesus returns at his second coming, he delivers this Kingdom over to the Father. The Kingdom ends and eternity begins. The Kingdom is now. Jesus is Lord now. What comes when he returns is eternity, where, yes, he will rule and reign, obviously, but over a perfected earth and people. There will be no death, rebellion or devil, waiting to have one last hurrah.

 

[Jay Ross]

But...this is Revelation, a notouriously difficult book to understand and highly symbolic. Can we find other scriptures that support this notion of Satan being bound during this time, and not later? If so, that would be great support for this view.

Isaiah 24:21-23 tells us of the heavenly hosts being cast down to the earth and being imprisoned in a cistern/pit for many days to away their punishment: -

Isaiah 24:21-23: -

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.
​

Daniel 7:9-12 also speaks of the time of the judgement of the heavenly hosts: -

Daniel 7:9-12: -

9 "I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
​

11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.​

Just two OT passages that spring to mind easily concerning the judgement of the heavenly hosts at the time of Armageddon and being initially imprisoned in a locked bottomless pit for a time before the pit is unlocked and the residences of the Bottomless pit can once more make war against the peoples of the earth.

I am sure that there are others scattered throughout the bible.

Shalom

 

[Davy]

Which view is incorrect remains to be seen. I know you believe yours to be true, and I don't fault you for your faithfulness. But likewise, I have arrived where I am due to a lot of time weighing all the scriptures against one another and praying. I feel where I've landed is the best biblical view, with the least amount of problems. In other words, it's the most faithful to the biblical text. The least amount of assumption. Therefore, its not due to 'confusion', but careful consideration and study. A LOT of study.

I don't care to discuss it with you. The Scripture is very clear that Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 is a literal period that will only begin with His return. The devil is still active in today's world causing evil and the Christian Church is not reigning over the nations with Jesus yet, but instead is being terribly persecuted, especially in nations outside the Christian west.

Arguments with those who think Christ is reigning with His elect over all nations today is like one with a black belt having a fight with a one-armed man.

 

[Earburner]

Amen Naomi!
You have spoken the Lord's truth, and you have said it well!!

 

[Earburner]

I don't care to discuss it with you. The Scripture is very clear that Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 is a literal period that will only begin with His return. The devil is still active in today's world causing evil and the Christian Church is not reigning over the nations with Jesus yet, but instead is being terribly persecuted, especially in nations outside the Christian west.

Arguments with those who think Christ is reigning with His elect over all nations today is like one with a black belt having a fight with a one-armed man.

You misunderstand the word "reign" .
At the moment, and ever since Pentecost, all "born again" Christians are ambassadors for Christ.
We don't reign over the nations as lords, but rather we are reigning with Him as His servants, to preach the gospel to all who will hear and seek reconciliation with God, through the sacrifice of His Peace, the Lord Jesus Christ.

According to God's way of thinking (Isaiah 55:8-9), His purpose for "a thousand years", is to provide a period of Grace so that all may be allowed to come to Him, through His Son by faith.
Make no mistake, the symbolic period of "a thousand years" IS NOW! 2 Peter 3:7-13

 

[Naomi25]

Isaiah 24:21-23 tells us of the heavenly hosts being cast down to the earth and being imprisoned in a cistern/pit for many days to away their punishment: -

Isaiah 24:21-23: -

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.
​

Yes, this does say that they will be imprisoned and then punished. But it does not say they will be released. It's interesting that in Revelation we are not given a specific picture about the majority of Satan's minions. We know the Antichrist and false prophet will be tossed into the LOF with him. As will all humans whose names aren't found in the book of life. But it doesn't seem to specifically mention demonic beings. We can assume they will end up there. But when? How? Can we point to this passage in Isaiah and wonder if they will be specifically punished first? Or is this a particular reference TO their punishment and suffering in the LOF?
Either way, I don't think this is any concrete proof of beings, or Satan, being absolutely imprisioned only to be set free again.

Daniel 7:9-12 also speaks of the time of the judgement of the heavenly hosts: -

Daniel 7:9-12: -

9 "I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
​

11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.​

Just two OT passages that spring to mind easily concerning the judgement of the heavenly hosts at the time of Armageddon and being initially imprisoned in a locked bottomless pit for a time before the pit is unlocked and the residences of the Bottomless pit can once more make war against the peoples of the earth.

I am sure that there are others scattered throughout the bible.

Shalom

This passage in Daniel is very interesting, but not so easy to interpret as you would suggest. For instance; we have a clear reference to the judgement seat of God. Of 'the beast' being tossed into what can only be the lake of fire. What do we make of 'the rest of the beasts'? You would say this is obviously a reference to the millennium. But, if you continue reading this passage, Dan 7:13-14 clearly describes Christ's return. Are we, then, to assume that God's great Judgement seat, where he tosses the Antichrist (as I understand this 'little horn' to be), rather than Satan into the LOF, then follows the millennium and THEN Christ returns. That would suggest a Post-millennial scheme.

However, I'm not sure that we can look at this passage and say difinitively that what is being spoken of is a time where Satan is bound while other beings, be they human or spiritual or otherwise, go on. We can say that perhaps that the Antichrist might meet his absolute end in the LOF and then others go on. But there is debate if these other 'beasts' are individuals or kingdoms and nations. There are also debates about whether what Daniel is referring to here is the Antichrist anyway. A good number of biblical scholars put the 'little horn' as Rome. Whom we know God did judge....they are no more...and other nations did in fact go on after them.

So...as I said...not so clear as you would perhaps make it.

 

[Naomi25]

I don't care to discuss it with you. The Scripture is very clear that Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 is a literal period that will only begin with His return. The devil is still active in today's world causing evil and the Christian Church is not reigning over the nations with Jesus yet, but instead is being terribly persecuted, especially in nations outside the Christian west.

Arguments with those who think Christ is reigning with His elect over all nations today is like one with a black belt having a fight with a one-armed man.

You may not wish to discuss it with me, and that is fine, its your right. But saying that the scriptures are 'very clear' about Christ only reigning in the future is simply not true. While the theology behind my view would take much longer to go through, these three simple verses put paid to your accusation that I'm a one-armed fighter.

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:28-29

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. -1 Corinthians 15:23–24

These three verses show that the Kingdom HAS come upon us now. That for it to have done so, Christ has bound the Prince of this age. That Christ is even now ruling over every authority, power, dominion and name. In this age, and in the next...note there in not a third category. Shouldn't we expect him to rule in eternity too, if there were to be three ages?
And then, finally, it tells us that AT his coming, it is the end, and AT the end, he hands over the Kingdom to his Father. If you read on in this passage, you see that it is this point that death if finally and completely destroyed...this can only be when it is thrown into the LOF. And this MUST come at the end of the Millennium.
Thus, there IS no room for an earthly millennium.
But it's okay. I don't blame you for not wanting to discuss it. It IS fairly open and closed.

 

[Jay Ross]

Yes, this does say that they will be imprisoned and then punished. But it does not say they will be released. It's interesting that in Revelation we are not given a specific picture about the majority of Satan's minions. We know the Antichrist and false prophet will be tossed into the LOF with him. As will all humans whose names aren't found in the book of life. But it doesn't seem to specifically mention demonic beings. We can assume they will end up there. But when? How? Can we point to this passage in Isaiah and wonder if they will be specifically punished first? Or is this a particular reference TO their punishment and suffering in the LOF?
Either way, I don't think this is any concrete proof of beings, or Satan, being absolutely imprisioned only to be set free again.


This passage in Daniel is very interesting, but not so easy to interpret as you would suggest. For instance; we have a clear reference to the judgement seat of God. Of 'the beast' being tossed into what can only be the lake of fire. What do we make of 'the rest of the beasts'? You would say this is obviously a reference to the millennium. But, if you continue reading this passage, Dan 7:13-14 clearly describes Christ's return. Are we, then, to assume that God's great Judgement seat, where he tosses the Antichrist (as I understand this 'little horn' to be), rather than Satan into the LOF, then follows the millennium and THEN Christ returns. That would suggest a Post-millennial scheme.

However, I'm not sure that we can look at this passage and say difinitively that what is being spoken of is a time where Satan is bound while other beings, be they human or spiritual or otherwise, go on. We can say that perhaps that the Antichrist might meet his absolute end in the LOF and then others go on. But there is debate if these other 'beasts' are individuals or kingdoms and nations. There are also debates about whether what Daniel is referring to here is the Antichrist anyway. A good number of biblical scholars put the 'little horn' as Rome. Whom we know God did judge....they are no more...and other nations did in fact go on after them.

So...as I said...not so clear as you would perhaps make it.

Nsomi25, that is okay. Not all news papers reporting the same event, will include all the same "facts" in their reports.

Also not every prophet having seen the same event, in a vision, will report the exact same facts because of the position they are reporting from.

For me to make sense of Bible Prophecy, I have had to put the end time events onto a timeline, along with the Biblical reference(s) in a diagram form where I can represent where they are during the unfolding events. There are a lot of recorded events that occur very close to each other, and one of those parameters that I have had to solve is approximately how long is and "age" within God's scheme for the unfolding events.

It has taken me a very long time to sort out my understanding and as such I cannot expect other people to be able to come to the same understanding without them taking time to process the information that I might have shared with them, particularly when give in such a shorthand format with lots of information left out to suit the transfer media of posting on a forum.

Shalom

 

[Naomi25]

Nsomi25, that is okay. Not all news papers reporting the same event, will include all the same "facts" in their reports.

Also not every prophet having seen the same event, in a vision, will report the exact same facts because of the position they are reporting from.

For me to make sense of Bible Prophecy, I have had to put the end time events onto a timeline, along with the Biblical reference(s) in a diagram form where I can represent where they are during the unfolding events. There are a lot of recorded events that occur very close to each other, and one of those parameters that I have had to solve is approximately how long is and "age" within God's scheme for the unfolding events.

It has taken me a very long time to sort out my understanding and as such I cannot expect other people to be able to come to the same understanding without them taking time to process the information that I might have shared with them, particularly when give in such a shorthand format with lots of information left out to suit the transfer media of posting on a forum.

Shalom

Come now...we all know in todays day, newspapers don't report facts, they only report opinions! And the bible is a little different in any case...being God's word it is both infallible and the only 'opinion' we should care for. :)

And yes, you are absolutely correct. End times doctrines are...convoluted! Without putting forth our 'whole' understandings on the subject, which sometimes would take a small publication...sometimes the dots just don't 'line up' as best they might, when taken as a whole. That's the trick, really, isn't it? Trying to condense what we know into the most concise, logical and winning way! Maybe that's why we keeping coming back and hitting our heads on the wall of these forums...the hope of improving?

 

[n2thelight]

You may not wish to discuss it with me, and that is fine, its your right. But saying that the scriptures are 'very clear' about Christ only reigning in the future is simply not true. While the theology behind my view would take much longer to go through, these three simple verses put paid to your accusation that I'm a one-armed fighter.

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:28-29

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. -1 Corinthians 15:23–24

These three verses show that the Kingdom HAS come upon us now. That for it to have done so, Christ has bound the Prince of this age. That Christ is even now ruling over every authority, power, dominion and name. In this age, and in the next...note there in not a third category. Shouldn't we expect him to rule in eternity too, if there were to be three ages?
And then, finally, it tells us that AT his coming, it is the end, and AT the end, he hands over the Kingdom to his Father. If you read on in this passage, you see that it is this point that death if finally and completely destroyed...this can only be when it is thrown into the LOF. And this MUST come at the end of the Millennium.
Thus, there IS no room for an earthly millennium.
But it's okay. I don't blame you for not wanting to discuss it. It IS fairly open and closed.

If Christ kingdom was here now,satan would be bound in the pit,evil would not be here, and one fact beyond all facts is the fact that we would all be changed into our spiritual bodies.

He hands over the kingdom to the Father at the end of that Day,ie,the millennium ,ie the Day of the Lord!!!

I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

At the very end of the Millennium age, the Son will deliver His Kingdom up to the Father. At the time of the Judgment God will put an end to all the rule and all power and authority that Satan will have on this world, or anywhere. That is when God will send Satan and all his realm and all evil and those that chose to follow him into the lake of fire.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Flesh and blood cannot enter that kingdom,period!!!!!!!

 

[n2thelight]

I think the guy did a great job explaining what God showed His faithful in His Holy Writ.

The problem with those who don't understand it is that they are too sunken into men's traditions of this world, and their mind is in chains, like our Lord Jesus pointed to with those not given eyes to see, and ears to hear.

They are blinded for a reason,that's why they will need to be taught during the millennium...

 

[Naomi25]

If Christ kingdom was here now,satan would be bound in the pit,evil would not be here, and one fact beyond all facts is the fact that we would all be changed into our spiritual bodies.

Let's go over this again. Rev 20 does NOT state that ALL evil will be gone. That ALL of Satan's influence will be null and void. I mean...does it? Can you show me in Rev 20 where it says any of that?
I can show you in Rev 20 where it tells us rather specifically that Satan will be bound (a synonym for restricted by the way) against 'deceiving the nations'. Not 'doing all evil and harm against humanity'. Nope, "deceiving the nations". In fact, it tells us more. "Deceiving the nations to gather them to war"...war against whom? The saints. That would be us...the people of God.
So, basically Rev 20 is telling us Satan will be bound against wiping Christians off the face of the planet...or making a pretty good go of it by uniting all nations together against us. We're still here, are we not? Hmmm...that could make one think that Satan had not been able to do this yet, wouldn't it?

As far as 'we have to be in our spiritual bodies' to be in the Millennium...where does it state this? I see in scripture that when Christ RETURNS we receive our spiritual bodies, most certianly. There is no squeezing around that. The problem then comes when someone tries to determine if the bible speaks of a Kingdom beyond Christ's return, or before it? Does the bible give us leave to place anything but eternity and no death after Christ's return?
I would say that scripture paints quite clearly that the Kingdom is NOW. That the Kingdom will be handed over to the Father AT Christ's return, a finishing, not a beginning. It tells us that AT Christ's return and our gaining our spiritual bodies, death itself will be ultimately defeated, which begs the question; how on earth can a Millennial reign come after that? Aren't people supposed to still die? Sure, they live longer, but death and sin, and Satan are by no means 'ultimately' defeated. And yet, scripture tells me that AT Christ's return, those things are, indeed, defeated.
To be honest, I see absolutely no evidence that there could be, let alone might be, a period of time after Christ's return, where people might exist in both normal and glorified bodies, in a state of nature that is still subjected to the curse. Peter tells us that AT Christs return the whole cosmos will be renewed! Jesus himself tells us that AT his return everyone alive will be judged. That puts every living soul in hell or in the new heavens or earth, basically.

He hands over the kingdom to the Father at the end of that Day,ie,the millennium ,ie the Day of the Lord!!!

I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

That might hold weight IF you could, in any way, prove that 'the end' was 'the millennium'.

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

This passage tells us that the Kingdom...the Kingdom we are currently IN, will come to an end "at his coming". It is at this time "when he delivers it to his Father AFTER destroying every rule and authority and power". And you know what the last power was? It was the one he took out AT his return....it was death. And AT it's final defeat, an earthly Millennium became impossible.
Also, there is nothing in this passage, or below it, where it speaks of the rapture and the 'death of death', to suggest that this is the beginning of 'another Kingdom'. This is essentially what you are suggesting. There is the Kingdom of heaven which is now. That is what Christ delivers over to the Father at his coming, at 'the end'. Then you suggest that there comes the "Millennial Kingdom"...a place where some people dwell in heavenly, spiritual bodies, but some live on in earthly bodies...and these people will 'populate' the Millennial Kingdom. They will also be subject to sin and death if they rebel against King Jesus. Lets ignore the fact that the bible never speaks of such a 'intermediate Kingdom' between this age and the eternal age...a Kingdom between this one, the one he "hands over to the Father" and the Eternal one where death is no more. Let's focus on the complete ridiculousness of two natures dwelling side by side at the same time in a manner the bible doesn't talk about and makes zero sense. It makes no sense because the bible won't let ANYONE escape judgement at Christ's coming...ain't nobody getting through THAT coming with a natural body. And then to say that sin and death will persist beyond the return of Christ? Why's he even coming then? What's the point of all the passages that point towards HIS ARRIVAL being the ultimate end to those very things? Then let's look at the fact that at the end of this 'intermediate kingdom' we have what amounts to another rebellion and armeggedon. Wasn't one enough? Why on earth would God have what appears to be a "history in mini" set up between the ages? Complete with a temple and sacrifices, which are a complete blasphemy against the risen Lord who died for us, by the way.
Any, and every way you look at it, having an earthly Millennium does NOT add up with what scripture tells us about what happens and when it happens AT Jesus' return.

At the very end of the Millennium age, the Son will deliver His Kingdom up to the Father. At the time of the Judgment God will put an end to all the rule and all power and authority that Satan will have on this world, or anywhere. That is when God will send Satan and all his realm and all evil and those that chose to follow him into the lake of fire.

That's not what it says! The passage is talking about the Rapture! You cannot divorce the two, pick and choose which parts you want to shove 1000 years apart. Christ returns to us, gathers us up, gives us new, spiritual bodies...and defeats death! It is this defeat that puts the 'last enemy' under his feet, and allows him to hand over the Kingdom. And that, my friend, IS the end. It's a wrap. And, death being done, as I said, makes an eartly Millennium, impossible.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Flesh and blood cannot enter that kingdom,period!!!!!!!

Well, see, now you have me confused. Because most people supporting an earthly millennium posit that there have to be at least SOME 'normies'. If the whole Kingdom is filled with saved people with glorified bodies....aren't we just calling it heaven at that point?? Especially if we start looping in Peter with him saying that the whole cosmos will be renewed at Christ's second advent.
So...what exactly ARE you saying the Millennium will be?