Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[ewq1938]

No the term is used as I said, in the OT for the churches and for the trib saints. What is to deny?

You deny the church is there but it is there. The saints in the trib are the church and there is zero evidence they suddenly converted during the trib. The two witnesses are there for the whole thing and part of the 2W are two churches. They are all part of the church of Christ.

Nothing in there says church at all. Read it. The trib witnesses are likened to candlesticks.

Which are churches of Christians so you are wrong, the church is very much present.

 

[dad]

You deny the church is there but it is there.

Yet no mention of it exists and so saying it repeatedly does not make it so

The saints in the trib are the church and there is zero evidence they suddenly converted during the trib.

Yes there will be saints alive after we are gone here. New believers.

The two witnesses are there for the whole thing and part of the 2W are two churches. They are all part of the church of Christ.

Except you made that up. They are the tribulation witnesses, lights to the world. Nothing to do with the church

Which are churches of Christians so you are wrong, the church is very much present.

Except you were just defeated totally in your lame attempt to stick the word church in and replace the word candlestick and you have no case at all so far.

 

[David in NJ]

Will you tone it down a couple notches, please? I made no accusation. A warning is not an accusation. You're the one posting passages like Revelation 22:18-19 in relation to pre-tribs, so that's why I say that.


Are you accusing them of purposely adding to His words? That's a serious allegation if you say that about them in relation to the book of Revelation, as Revelation 22:18-19 shows. Anyone who violates what is described in Revelation 22:18-19 will be condemned and cast into the lake of fire because it talks about God's wrath being on them and their names not being in the book of life.


Of course. Have I said otherwise? No, I have not.


Can you understand that I'm not saying it's not harmful to believe any false doctrine. It is. I'm only saying that one's end times doctrine is not a determining factor in salvation. Can it affect one's life and their relationship with Christ? Yes, it can, so it is worthwhile to warn them about that. I'm only saying to be careful not to condemn anyone. Why are you offended by that? If you're not doing that, then good for you. It's something for all of us to be aware of, that's all.

Revelation 22:18-19 in relation to pre-tribs, so that's why I say that.

Revelation chapter 22 ends with WARNING MESSAGE to the churches = idolators and pre-fibbers should pay careful attention!!!

 

[Atarah]

I don't see anywhere in Acts 15 that requires a Jewish Christian to be circumcised. Tell me where you are seeing that. Why would that be required of them?


The veil has been lifted for plenty of Jews who were formerly blinded for the past almost 2,000 years. Notice how Paul hoped to help save some of them who were blinded in his day.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Act 16:1-3 - Timothy's mother was Jewish, making him Jewish. For that reason, Paul, who opposed the circumcision of Gentiles, had Timothy circumcised.

 

[Atarah]

No, they are not. The old covenant was made obsolete long ago (Hebrews 8:13). Nowhere in Acts 15 does it say that Israelite believers are obligated to continue the old covenant practices.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

This says that God "put no difference between us (Jewish Christians) and them (Gentile Christians), purifying their hearts by faith". You are trying to make a difference between them, but there is not.

Why, then, did Paul have Timothy, whose mother was Jewish and making him Jewish, circumcised?

 

[David in NJ]

In my experience, pre-trib believers tend to be nicer, more loving people. Happier also!

Much love!

Nice?

So as long as you speak nice soft words it is ok to oppose the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles words in order to prop up an idol.

i recall in Genesis chapter 3 the Serpent spoke beautiful, soft words of great wisdom!!!
Unfortunately, those soft spoken words turned out to be a LIE

 

[ewq1938]

Yet no mention of it exists and so saying it repeatedly does not make it so

I have shown it already. You are denying because it disproves the doctrine you believe in. Christians/the church are everywhere in trib passages in the bible which is no surprise because the tribulation is a Christian tribulation meaning a war of persecution and killing of Christians.

The bible says the church will go through the tribulation. The 144,000 Christian Jews do. The two witnesses, which are two prophets and two Christian churches do. Revelation 20 also says Christian beheaded martyrs do. Revelation 13 speaks of Christian saints so they do. Revelation 12:17 says satan will wage a war against Christians, and that is seen starting in Revelation 13. Christ said Christians will go through the Great Tribulation in the Olivet discourse.

 

[Atarah]

God has not abandoned the Jews/Israel of the flesh = they abandoned their God and Savior and the only WAY to Eternal Life

Romans 10:1-3
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Anyone found in their own righteousness, whether it be Jew or Gentile, will not be accepted into HEAVEN, where MESSIAH is KING.

Colossians 1:9-14
For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 1hat you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

The Jew's rejection of the Messiah made a way for the Gentiles to enter into God's favour—for a time. Israel's eventual acknowledgement of Yeshua as the Messiah will end the time of Gentiles and complete the 70th week of Daniel, fulfilling Israel's iniquity and ushering in the Millennium.

 

[David in NJ]

The Jew's rejection of the Messiah made a way for the Gentiles to enter into God's favour—for a time. Israel's eventual acknowledgement of Yeshua as the Messiah will end the time of Gentiles and complete the 70th week of Daniel, fulfilling Israel's iniquity and ushering in the Millennium.

Just make one correction.
When the Apostle Paul says "time of the Gentiles" he is not speaking of Gentile christians but only of the Gentile kingdoms spoken of
thru the Prophet Daniel that the LORD will destroy at the Brightness of His Second Coming.

All Blood Washed Gentile Believers REMAIN in the Kingdom with all Blood Washed Jews = there is no separation,

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Bladerunner]

The Gog from Magog attack is yet to happen, so there are no bones in Wadi Abarim now.

My beliefs are that if what is Prophesied can happen, then it will.

The belief of a Jewish redemption and restoration, requires a heap of verse changes and deletion.

No, it does not require anything close to that. The bones that was shown to Ezekiel a type of Israel. From 375 AD till 1948, the Jewish people were spread throughout the world with no home land in sight. Yet, This prophecy was fulfilled at that time and in 1948 Israel as a nation began. Glad to hear you believe that Prophecy will be fulfilled..

 

[David in NJ]

I have shown it already. You are denying because it disproves the doctrine you believe in. Christians/the church are everywhere in trib passages in the bible which is no surprise because the tribulation is a Christian tribulation meaning a war of persecution and killing of Christians.

The bible says the church will go through the tribulation. The 144,000 Christian Jews do. The two witnesses, which are two prophets and two Christian churches do. Revelation 20 also says Christian beheaded martyrs do. Revelation 13 speaks of Christian saints so they do. Revelation 12:17 says satan will wage a war against Christians, and that is seen starting in Revelation 13. Christ said Christians will go through the Great Tribulation in the Olivet discourse.

This is for @marks and @ewq1938

@marks, Brother @ewq1938 speaks much more softly then i do as God made us all unique and differing in gifts and calling.

For both of you my Brothers in Christ = Do you understand the methodology used by the Holy Spirit to create 'Bookends'???

Let me know if you understand this, and i will share with you some Holy Spirit 'Bookends' - ok


SHALOM

 

[Bladerunner]

I'm not a preterist. You apparently have no reading comprehension skills at all, so it's pointless for me to try to explain things to you.

Yet you do not believe that GOD has two plans for the people on earth. One for Israel and one for the Gentiles as explained earlier.

 

[David in NJ]

Yet you do not believe that GOD has two plans for the people on earth. One for Israel and one for the Gentiles as explained earlier.

Please give more detail to your "two plans" - thank you

 

[dad]

I have shown it already.

You have shown a verse with the word candlestick, replaced it with church, ignored that the word is used for pre church as well as post church believers etc etc. All you need to show now is honesty to admit that your pitiful attempt at molesting a verse has been well and truly decimated

You are denying because it disproves the doctrine you believe in.

There was no mention of church in the verse you spammed. Nothing to deny.

Christians/the church are everywhere in trib passages in the bible

Big difference between believers raptured (church) and other believers later. You don't so much as know the difference.

which is no surprise because the tribulation is a Christian tribulation meaning a war of persecution and killing of Christians.

It will also kill non believers and Jews and other faiths etc etc. But none of that has anything to do with the rapture.

The bible says the church will go through the tribulation.

You made that up, and apparently do not either realize it or are past able to admit it.

The 144,000 Christian Jews do.

Yes they do. Of course.

The two witnesses, which are two prophets and two Christian churches do.

They actually are two men here on earth after the believers have been raptured. You calling them 'churches' is less than a joke

Revelation 20 also says Christian beheaded martyrs do.

Believers alive in that time will face death in many cases. Nothing to do with the church or the rapture.

Revelation 13 speaks of Christian saints so they do.

Saints in that time are not an issue here. You pretending they are still 'the church' is the issue

Revelation 12:17 says satan will wage a war against Christians,

Of course he will in that time. That has nothing to do with the already raptured church

and that is seen starting in Revelation 13. Christ said Christians will go through the Great Tribulation in the Olivet discourse.

No, nothing remotely similar to that, despite your unsupported claim. Face it

 

[Keraz]

Yet you do not believe that GOD has two plans for the people on earth. One for Israel and one for the Gentiles as explained earlier.

Not only does the Bible not teach that there are two distinct peoples of God, ethnic Israel and the gentile Church, but it is very explicitly opposed to this idea. John 10:16, John 17:22-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, Colossians 3:11

For one thing, the Church, defined as the group of true believers of God, existed in the Old Testament, long before the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Acts 7:38, and furthermore, the clear teaching of the New Testament is that the modern day Church is really just the joining with and the expansion of God's people that He originally chose.

According to Paul being an true Israelite has never been based on anything other than faith in God, Romans 2:28-29 & 9:6-8 and only those who have been called according to God's promise are Abraham's seed by faith. Romans 9:8
Therefore:, all who have [Christian] faith are Abraham's children, and are the true Israelites of God. Galatians 3:26-29

When Paul deals extensively with the whole question of the place of Jews and Gentiles in the people of God, in Romans 11, he shows that there is just one people, symbolized by one good olive tree; unbelieving individual Jews may be broken off of that tree of true Israel and believing individual Christian Gentiles AND Jews, may be grafted in; but there is still one tree, one body, one people of God. Paul teaches elsewhere that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ, but that all believers are members of the same body, citizens of the one Christian congregation of the Israelites of God and the inheritors of all the promises made to Abraham. Ephesians 2:11-22, 3:6, Galatians 4:26-31, Phil. 3:20, Hebrews 12:22-23

In short, there is and always has been just one people of God, and that people includes all those who are grafted in to God's “good olive tree” to become Abraham's children by faith, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, every true Christian believer. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 56:1-8, Psalms 73:1

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet you do not believe that GOD has two plans for the people on earth. One for Israel and one for the Gentiles as explained earlier.

Of course I don't believe that. Have you never read the New Testament? God clearly has ONE plan for ONE body of people, including Jew and Gentile believers. That plan was to send His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world so that both Jews and Gentiles could be saved in the ONE body of Christ, the church. There is no other plan that God has for His people.

Have you never read this?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why, then, did Paul have Timothy, whose mother was Jewish and making him Jewish, circumcised?

Asking a question instead of addressing what I said? Can you please address what it says in this passage?

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The reason that Paul had Timothy circumcised was not because it was required, but it was so that Timothy could be more effective in his ministry to the Jews. Paul wrote this....

1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Notice Paul said that he was not under the law. Neither was Timothy or any other Jewish Christian because Christians are under grace instead of the law. They only "became like one under the law...so as to win those under the law".

 

[marks]

I go by what you actually say and you get offended. It's unbelievable.

I've expressed incredulity, and you've replaced that with "offended", and then you yourself express your incredulity. Does that mean you've become offended?

I think this goes towards proving my point that there is a vocabulary problem, not just in Scripture, but in reading other people's posts.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Nothing in there says church at all. Read it. The trib witnesses are likened to candlesticks.

Revelation 11:3-4 KJV
3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Personally I more associate this passage with the following,

Zechariah 4:11-14 KJV
11) Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12) And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13) And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14) Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've expressed incredulity, and you've replaced that with "offended", and then you yourself express your incredulity. Does that mean you've become offended?

I think this goes towards proving my point that there is a vocabulary problem, not just in Scripture, but in reading other people's posts.

Much love!

I'm not going to waste my time arguing about this kind of thing. It's interesting how you only want to spend time talking about this kind of thing, but you didn't address anything else I said in my post.