Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[David in NJ]

What kind of ridiculous question is this? I said nothing to warrant being asked this question.


Where did I say anything against any of this? Nowhere. I'm simply warning you about condemning anyone who should not be condemned and that's all. You're not getting my point, so I'm not going to waste any more time on this.

I'm simply warning you about condemning anyone who should not be condemned and that's all.

FALSE ACCUSATION

i NEVER condemned anyone for believing in pre-trib. My posts are to bring AWARENESS that pre-trib is a lie.

When anyone of us places our trust in the words of men over the words of God we are regressing away from the TRUTH.

Many of my friends are ignorant of the Holy Scriptures because they place their trust in pastors and church buildings.
i NEVER condemn them but i do LOVE them and warn them that God is not pleased and it is a SIN to add to His words.

When anyone of us places our trust in the words of men over the words of God we are regressing away from the TRUTH.

Question: What does this mean to you?: "no lie is of the truth"

 

[Bladerunner]

If you want to completely ignore the format of the book of Revelation, that's your choice.

Do you apply your literal, historical, grammatical method to passages like this one:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This says a singular hour is coming during which all of the dead, saved and lost, will be resurrected. Does that line up with your literal interpretation from the highly symbolic book of Revelation?

NO, it does not say a single hour..."The Hour" is coming for all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life. Also the "The Hour" is coming for all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


We see this in Rev 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Here John is speaking about the Millennium just beginning with the judgement of the tribulation saints. This is "the Hour of the first Resurrection" and in the very next verse Rev 20:6.."Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." John speaks of the second resurrection (second death). Here "the Hour" had come to those are apart of the second death.

 

[Bladerunner]

The new covenant was established by the blood of Christ long ago. Do you someow not understand that we are under the new covenant and that the old covenant was made obsolete long ago? These things you're talking about are not taught in scripture. There is no such thing as "Tribulation Saints" or a 1000 year future sanctification period or any of the dispensational doctrine you've been taught.

Look to Rev 6:9-11..."And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." and then in Rev 20:4.."And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." The Church (His Body, His Bride) received the New covenant when they are justified/glorified. Here above, the tribulation Saints in Rev 6 are those that have died for Jesus and have lost their heads at the very beginning of Daniel's 70th week. Of, course the Church has already been "caught-up" in Rev 4:1-2. In Rev 20:5, we see those that Rev 6:9 tribulation saints and GOD are speaking of.

Let me speak of this Ezekiel prophecy given to the Jews by the Lord. This prophecy is not fulfilled until the Millennium (Kingdom of Heaven) is fulfilled. Then the remnant jews will be given this prophecy..

Because the Gentiles have been grafted onto the vine, they will also share the covenants and the curses. The New Covenant is given to those who are true believers in His Church. Here this part of the New covenant for the Church will not be fulfilled until the Rapture where the Dead will be raised to meet those who are alive in the clouds. There we will be reunited with their bodies and given new translated bodies before being taken on in to heaven. 1 Cor 15:50-55
Oh, you

Scripture does not teach this anywhere. Please read the New Testament which teaches that God has one body, one people made up of Jew and Gentile believers who belong to Christ. That's it. Don't try to separate what the blood of Christ brought together as one.

Oh, you are a preterist, one who believes that because the nation of Jews killed Jesus, they forfeited the covenants God gave them and these covenants were then place on the gentiles...Just to rid oneself of any guilt, you fold the jews into the church under the gentiles....The JEWS are GODs (the Father's People) and I would be very careful about not following Gen 12:3. Notice very carefully in verse three,"I will Bless them" and "I will Curse him" God was speaking of Nations when He spoke about blessing "them" and He was speaking directly to the individual "him" when He spoke of curses. This means each person that curses them (especially by removing them from the rest of the Bible) will himself be cursed. be very careful. God showed pharaoh just how bad He could be when someone curse His people.

 

[Bladerunner]

And what happens to people like the foolish virgins at that time? If you read Luke 13:25-28 you should see that they will be cast out from the presence of the Lord where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is what will happen to all unbelievers when Christ returns and we are caught up to Him. Paul said "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape". The idea of a tribulation period occurring after that is not taught in scripture, nor is the idea of an earthly kingdom occurring after that.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is referenced to: Mat 8:12.."But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This should scare anyone who is not a true believer.Not only is the Lake of Fire and brimstone Hot and tortuous but there will be no parties for the will be all alone to think for an eternity of what they have done in their life on earth. Yes, It will happen to all unbelievers and you are still on the post-trib wagon...accordingly, we are caught-up to meet Him on the way down. The Marriage Supper cannot happen until after the Battle of Armageddon unless one deletes it or allogorizes it some way..In fact, Rev to an amellinnial is a bunch of allegories that clearly place all of its prophecies onto 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Bladerunner]

No; those Prophesies apply to the time before Jesus Returns. Proved by how we will elect our own leaders. Hosea 1:11, Jeremiah 30:21

Many of the Prophecies have happened before Jesus returns. The Valley of Bones prophecy was partially fulfilled when the Jews became a nation after 1700 years of being scattered through out the world. Rev. a book of prophecies are for the most part before Jesus comes back..In fact, we know more about His coming back than we do about all of His days on earth in that first 32 years. Yet, It really does not have nothing to do with how we elect our leaders. Yes the Hosea prophecies does promise future judgement and it did happen during the days of the Kings of Israel. This also was before Jesus Return. Jeremiah 30:21..Please go back to JER 30:1 for context. These are the days that God delivered His people out of Captivity. nothing else except it did happen prior to the 2nd advent of Jesus.

 

[Keraz]

The Valley of Bones prophecy was partially fulfilled when the Jews became a nation

I have driven through the Valley of the Bones, [Messengers]. or as it is called today; Wadi Abarim. I saw no bones.
Prophecy is quite clear, that the Lords peoples, His faithful Christians; His sheep; will occupy all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-16, before Jesus Returns. We are there when the 'beast; takes control. Revelation 13:5-7, Daniel 7:25

 

[Bladerunner]

I have driven through the Valley of the Bones, [Messengers]. or as it is called today; Wadi Abarim. I saw no bones.
Prophecy is quite clear, that the Lords peoples, His faithful Christians; His sheep; will occupy all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-16, before Jesus Returns. We are there when the 'beast; takes control. Revelation 13:5-7, Daniel 7:25

Did you expect to see any bones? "The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones," (Eze 37:1) I am not sure that I know where you are coming from. your Amellinnialist for sure, preterist also so you alegorize the Bible verses to fit your world and biblical view.....I believe in the WORD of GOD....ALL of it as it is written....Like the Valley of Bones, I do not have to change, add or delete of a verse. The Remnant of Jews, God (the Father's) people will occupy the holy land...Gentiles not so much for they will be spread out among their nations during the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, Millennium, 1,000 yrs of Christ Rule on Earth...and No- Christ is not ruling this world today, Yes, He is in control but it is Satan that is pulling the shots......as GOD would have him do.

 

[Keraz]

Did you expect to see any bones?

The Gog from Magog attack is yet to happen, so there are no bones in Wadi Abarim now.

My beliefs are that if what is Prophesied can happen, then it will.

I do not have to change, add or delete of a verse. The Remnant of Jews, God (the Father's) people will occupy the holy land.

The belief of a Jewish redemption and restoration, requires a heap of verse changes and deletion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But you wouldnt exegete anything with me when I tried. ??

When did I say I wouldn't do that? I didn't. Feel free to exegete something and we can calmly talk about it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not true! He has tried numerous times with you and other Pretribbers and you have avoided the scriptural arguments. I have tried to get you away from this perosnal stuff and unto Scripture but you do not seem to want to go. Why not?

Exactly. His memory is a bit fuzzy. We try over and over again to get them to exegete scripture and they refuse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

FALSE ACCUSATION

Will you tone it down a couple notches, please? I made no accusation. A warning is not an accusation. You're the one posting passages like Revelation 22:18-19 in relation to pre-tribs, so that's why I say that.

i NEVER condemned anyone for believing in pre-trib. My posts are to bring AWARENESS that pre-trib is a lie.

When anyone of us places our trust in the words of men over the words of God we are regressing away from the TRUTH.

Many of my friends are ignorant of the Holy Scriptures because they place their trust in pastors and church buildings.
i NEVER condemn them but i do LOVE them and warn them that God is not pleased and it is a SIN to add to His words.

Are you accusing them of purposely adding to His words? That's a serious allegation if you say that about them in relation to the book of Revelation, as Revelation 22:18-19 shows. Anyone who violates what is described in Revelation 22:18-19 will be condemned and cast into the lake of fire because it talks about God's wrath being on them and their names not being in the book of life.

When anyone of us places our trust in the words of men over the words of God we are regressing away from the TRUTH.

Of course. Have I said otherwise? No, I have not.

Question: What does this mean to you?: "no lie is of the truth"

Can you understand that I'm not saying it's not harmful to believe any false doctrine. It is. I'm only saying that one's end times doctrine is not a determining factor in salvation. Can it affect one's life and their relationship with Christ? Yes, it can, so it is worthwhile to warn them about that. I'm only saying to be careful not to condemn anyone. Why are you offended by that? If you're not doing that, then good for you. It's something for all of us to be aware of, that's all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is referenced to: Mat 8:12.."But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This should scare anyone who is not a true believer.Not only is the Lake of Fire and brimstone Hot and tortuous but there will be no parties for the will be all alone to think for an eternity of what they have done in their life on earth. Yes, It will happen to all unbelievers and you are still on the post-trib wagon...accordingly, we are caught-up to meet Him on the way down. The Marriage Supper cannot happen until after the Battle of Armageddon unless one deletes it or allogorizes it some way..In fact, Rev to an amellinnial is a bunch of allegories that clearly place all of its prophecies onto 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem.

No, you are talking about preterism here. Not all amillennialists are preterists. Many amils see Revelation 19 as talking about the future second coming of Christ and not about what happened in 70 AD. Please educate yourself about other beliefs.

 

[MA2444]

When did I say I wouldn't do that? I didn't. Feel free to exegete something and we can calmly talk about it.

You didnt say you wouldnt exegete it. You said you would, but then you would not egegete it. You'd post unrelated scriptures as if it was relevant and seemed like you was just doding going to the scripture alone.

So I got tired of trying with you 3 guys. I know I know, you didnt not do it and we pretribbers said it wasnt true anyway (NOT!) Lol. I think over time and over multiple thread about it I have posted my entire notes on the subject and nobody (out of you 3) has ever really discussed any scriptures that we have posted. A continual dodge of the exegegting of the scriptures which support Pre Trib Rapture. So...yeah, it got old after awhile.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

NO, it does not say a single hour...

Yes, it absolutely does.

"The Hour" is coming for all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life. Also the "The Hour" is coming for all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

No, you are changing the text to make it say what you want it to say. It does not say that. It says the hour is coming when all the dead will be raised. Some will be raised to eternal life and some to damnation. That's it. You're trying to turn one resurrection event into two, but Jesus did not say that.

We see this in Rev 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Here John is speaking about the Millennium just beginning with the judgement of the tribulation saints. This is "the Hour of the first Resurrection" and in the very next verse Rev 20:6.."Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." John speaks of the second resurrection (second death). Here "the Hour" had come to those are apart of the second death.

Why are you basing your doctrine on the passage from the most highly symbolic book in scripture instead of straightforward passages like John 5:28-29? The first resurrection, according to scripture, was Christ's resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20). We all spiritually have part in His resurrection (Col 2:12-13, Eph 2:4-6, Rom 6:9-11). The souls of the dead in Christ that John saw in heaven had part in Christ's resurrection and that's why it says "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". He doesn't refer to their bodily resurrection.

 

[marks]

For the sake of conversation, suppose pre trib is wrong. Where is the evil in drawing closer to the Lord sooner than post trib believers? They pray more, read the word more, and am expecting Him sooner rather than ater. SO would not the pre trib believers have a closer relationship with the Lord than post tribbers who arent even lookig for Him?

In my experience, pre-trib believers tend to be nicer, more loving people. Happier also!

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You didnt say you wouldnt exegete it. You said you would, but then you would not egegete it. You'd post unrelated scriptures as if it was relevant and seemed like you was just doding going to the scripture alone.

I will exegete whatever scripture you want. I did say that I don't think Daniel has relevance to the topic, but you're welcome to show where you thikn it does by exegeting any scripture you want and I'll comment on it. That's what I said.

So I got tired of trying with you 3 guys. I know I know, you didnt not do it and we pretribbers said it wasnt true anyway (NOT!) Lol. I think over time and over multiple thread about it I have posted my entire notes on the subject and nobody (out of you 3) has ever really discussed any scriptures that we have posted. A continual dodge of the exegegting of the scriptures which support Pre Trib Rapture. So...yeah, it got old after awhile.

Just exegete some scripture already and we can talk about it. Good grief. We've asked you pretribs to do that over and over again and no one ever does.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my experience, pre-trib believers tend to be nicer, more loving people. Happier also!

Much love!

LOL. You haven't read the pretrib threads then. The posts directed at us post-tribs have been very nasty. Please stop being so naive.

 

[WPM]

You didnt say you wouldnt exegete it. You said you would, but then you would not egegete it. You'd post unrelated scriptures as if it was relevant and seemed like you was just doding going to the scripture alone.

So I got tired of trying with you 3 guys. I know I know, you didnt not do it and we pretribbers said it wasnt true anyway (NOT!) Lol. I think over time and over multiple thread about it I have posted my entire notes on the subject and nobody (out of you 3) has ever really discussed any scriptures that we have posted. A continual dodge of the exegegting of the scriptures which support Pre Trib Rapture. So...yeah, it got old after awhile.

Really? Show us. Link to it.

 

[MA2444]

I will exegete whatever scripture you want. I did say that I don't think Daniel has relevance to the topic, but you're welcome to show where you thikn it does by exegeting any scripture you want and I'll comment on it. That's what I said.

You did say you would. And never have. Oh you respond, about anything else. And it's a waste of my time. Besides, who wants to bicker with you? I'm done with that.

Just exegete some scripture already and we can talk about it. Good grief. We've asked you pretribs to do that over and over again and no one ever does.

That's an outright lie bro and you know it. You dont control the narrative, scripture is supposed to. So go exegete it for yourself. I tried, to no avail, so let it go. WHo cares?
The way you have been to pre tribbers, you make me want to not talk to you. I got things to do better than this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my experience, pre-trib believers tend to be nicer, more loving people. Happier also!

Much love!

These are some of the posts from pre-tribbers in response to post-tribbers (mostly WPM and myself) within the past month or two (WPM compiled this list):

all of you post tribbers still have time to repent of your bull crap and get your eyes upon Jesus.

Pull your panties back down outta your crack for now about it has to be pretrib. I'll get to that soon enough, lol.

Dont twist my words Satan.

that's not your agenda here! Satan!

You should seek someone to lay hands hands on you and see if you can get that evil spirit cast out of you.

I like to be very direct with the minions of the enemy so they know who they're dealing with.

Keep it up. Time is short for the ones serving darkness.

it isnt really them that we're talking to when they act like that. It's the evil spirits that they are oppressed by (or possessed by?) Just like it says in Ephesians. That is...if Ephesians is true, LOL!

Wow, look at that. Jerico started a good thread, and it's like the enemy dispatched a platoon of evil ones who seek to shut it down and derail it.

an evil band of spirits instruct people to shut that thread down!

I think all you evil spirits here to disrupt and distract from the truth have shot yourself in the foot in this thread.

evil spirits say, rapture doctrine is wrong

we wrestle not with flesh and blood people. But with principalities and powers and evil spirits. So it aint even his fault, it is the evil spirits which are oppressing him into being like he is.

We're not arguing with you post trib people, but with the spirits behind you.

You rode that beast/doctrine that carried you into the desert and I slew it. Now you are a foot. Time to get with it. Get that Bible out and enjoy the ride. Be free and agree with Jesus and His Holy Book.

Get thee behind me satan.

We would be better off talking to cult members than these nasties

My prayers for you, you get to be present on the earth during the tribulations and wrath sent down from heaven AS you contend is your hearts desire… I’ll be with Christ’s Church, not looking down, not thinking of you…

Stop your whining…I am happy for you, and hope you live long enough to get to enjoy Gods tribulations and wrath to be sent down from heaven.
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That's just like the gay guys and the trans supporters and gbtzers and all of their ilk.

Are you and him gay too? You have the same spirit. You guys sound just them guys. Ok go on crusade against me boi.

All that egg on his face and his remedy is to smear more on it.

What a hoot.

Let's calm down and try to remedy your facesmear with all that gooey egg.

We can start with retrieving your needed omissions.

You are sitting there with so much egg on your face you can not see that your house is on fire, but you turn to your air purifier for a ridiculous remedy.

you have no heart.

Gaslighter.

I don’t have a one-liner toddler version for you.

I'm pretty sure his nickname is Christmas as he is slow as Christmas

You are Kukoo.

There's that 60 IQ shining through for you.

you have the comprehension of a 60 IQ man

Gossip on Mamm...Have you been staying home with the ladies too much or what?

Dont debate like a woman. If you (continue) to not offer a correction to the truth makes it seem like you debate like a woman.

No offense brother, but you talk like a woman.

You posting scriptures that dont even match what you're saying and then getting frustrated and popping off....is exactly how women talk

You could challenge it to me Wilma but I guess you aint that bright?

But oh no you dont want to discuss any doctrine all you want to do is to sling insults. Just like a Wilma.

Wilma, you almost sound scripted sometimes, you know that?

Oh grow a pair this is how men talk. You want to play a vicitim card for him because what I said? Maaaann, brother you hang out with the women too much or something.

You showed your true colors. You & your wife and your son?

I've been trying for days to get your wife to turn to the book of Daniel and she refuses.

Then you weirdos say they have no scripture...

Every post of yours is now trashy ghetto juvenile nothing-ness.

As you demonstrate manfully.. ...

When you get push back ,you go to default trigger mode and show us your ghetto talk.

SI has gone total ghetto mode.

It is comical imagining him at a podium and cussing and screaming when someone challenges his error.

" OK ladies and gentlemen, we will go to a commercial, as we sort this out"

...all the time he is screaming in the background... ...
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Easy to see why God Himself said the Carnal Mind is against Him…the same holds true of men against men!

Pity on you.

Matt 13:[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

It is beyond your comprehension BECAUSE it is “EASIER” to simply maintain your stubbornness and REJECT, rather than to “DISCOVER” the meaning of Jesus’ teaching, and HOW TO, understand the meaning of Jesus’ teaching.It’s not rocket-science.
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Well, what was your career? I know it was nothing technical. I know it was nothing in mathematics. I think most likely just manual labor. Small chance of sales but it would be at a shoe store or target, Best Buy of the like. Not likely you would sell anything like air conditioners or such things.

From your responses I can tell you are retired or without a job, and you when you did work it was likely a manual labor position.

Here are the pre-tribbers who made these posts:

MA2444
Taken
rebuilder 454
The Light