Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's obvious that you are not reading what I'm saying. If you want to condemn pre-tribs to hell by applying Revelation 22:18-19 to them, that's your choice, but I'm not going to join you in that.
Proof of Rapture before Tribulation
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Where in any of my posts do i condemn anyone for believing in pre-trib?
Revelation applies to EVERYONE = you me and everyone
Don't think so? = that is your choice!!!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You better go back and read Revelation chapter 22 as it is a Direct Message to the churches = as it was in chapter 1.
VERSE 16 - I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.
verses 17-19
VERSE 20 - He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Do you understand this?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Read Revelation 22:18-19 again. That passage is applying God's wrath to anyone who adds to the book and takes someone's name out of the book of life if they take away from it. You are applying that passage to pre-tribs and accusing them of adding to and/or taking away from the book of Revelation, are you not? If so, then you are saying God's wrath is on them and/or saying that their names are not in the book of life by indicating that they are adding to and/or taking away from the book.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
We're not on the same page here, buddy. We're talking about completely different things. Please slow down and pay attention to what I'm actually saying. I'm simply saying that if you say that pre-tribs are either purposely adding to or purposely taking away from the book of Revelation, then they are not saved because God's wrath does not come down on those who are saved and those who are saved do not have their names removed from the book of life. Are you intending to say that pre-tribs are taking away from the book and therefore don't have their names in the book of life as Revelation 22:19 says? Are you intending to say that pre-tribs are adding to the book and therefore will have God's wrath come down on them, as it says in Revelation 22:18?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i am on the page of God's words, Revelation chapter 22 - where are you?
Taken
Well-Known Member
Amusing I have expressly quoted Scripture…regarding those IN Jesus, God shall rise and those IN Christ, Christ shall rise and BECAUSE YOU DO NOT TAKE the Scriptures for FACE VALUE, nor UNDERSTAND their DIFFERENCE and MEANING….You proclaim I have made Scripture say WHAT I WANT IT TO SAY….
That is a FALSE claim and duly noted.
Scripture teaches…Jesus IS the WORD of God.
Scripture teaches….Christ IS the POWER, WISDOM, SEED of God.
Not my JOB to teach you the DIFFERENCE OR require YOU to trust or believe the FACTS.
More amusement on your part.
In my own confident opinion I highly doubt YOU know the thoughts of EVERYONE in the world!
lol….
How do YOU KNOW Jesus IS the Christ? WHO “told” YOU?
* Did YOU miss the lesson…??
Jesus’ OWN chosen Disciples with Jesus daily for 3 years…couldn’t ANSWER Jesus IF they Knew Jesus IS the CHRIST…
(Matt 16…)
* There are MANY people who believe JESUS lived, Jesus’ body Died, Jesus’ body resumed living…..
AND the people who BELIEVE THAT…(on the day their own body DIES)….
God Shall “THEN” save their soul…
And God Shall “RISE” up their body in the First Resurrection.
* There are FEW people who believe Jesus lived, Jesus’ body Died, Jesus’ body resumed living “AND” received FROM GOD (as did Peter), the Knowledge that Jesus IS The Christ….”AND” they (as did Jesus) willingly gave their body unto Death (crucified with Jesus)….”AND” they are NOT IN HOPE and WAITING FOR …SALVATION…THEIR soul, IS saved, their spirit is quickened….
“THEY ARE SAVED”…
* Men’s Belief in Jesus at time of the mans Death, is a man IN Jesus and SHALL BE Saved, risen up by God…FiIRST RESURRECTION.
* Belief in Jesus IS the Christ, Are they IN Christ ARE Saved and SHALL be risen up by the Lord ….. RAPTURE.
I know those little words and conjunctions can be Confusing…when you trust secular teaching rather that teaching from Gods Spirit to mans spirit….but that be your problem, not mine.
I can NOT understand FOR YOU.
It is ridiculous to expect spiritual understanding from a carnal minded perspective…
Just saying…
ARE saved…accomplished..(Rapture candidate)
SHALL be saved…not accomplished….(First resurrection candidate)
Glory to God,
Taken
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
There is no difference between being in Jesus and being in Christ. That is the most ludicrous claim I've ever seen about anything in my entire life. I guess you don't want to be taken seriously if you have to resort to that level of nonsense to keep your doctrine afloat. Doing ludicrous things like differentiating between being in Jesus and being in Christ (Jesus is Christ. Hello?) is the kind of thing people do when they want to make scripture say whatever they want it to say. That's a fact.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Can you answer the questions I asked in my post? We might be on the same page in the sense that we're looking at the same passage, but we are not on the same page in terms of what we're talking about. You referenced other verses and are saying Revelation is for everyone. I'm not debating that. I'm saying you should not apply the wrath of God and having one's name not in the book of life to pre-tribs, which is what you're doing if you apply Revelation 22:18-19 to them and say that they are adding to or taking away from the book of Revelation. Are you saying they are doing that or not? It's talking about people who purposely do that and not someone who mistakenly misinterprets the book. If that applied to anyone who misinterprets any part of the book then we're probably all doomed. If you still are not seeing my point here, then we need to just move on from this.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Revelation chapter 22 and Post 720 answers your questions
It is the LORD JESUS who SAVES us whether pre/mid/post trib.
And it is HE Alone who loves, rebukes, corrects and Judges = Rev 3:18-22
pre-trib rapture is a lie and some will perish in that lie for they placed their trust in the words of men and not the LORD and His words
Have you forgotten the five foolish virgins with no oil??? JESUS said I do not know you............. not me
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, pre-trib is a false doctrine, but can you show me where salvation is dependent on whether someone is pre-trib or post-trib? I don't see that taught in scripture anywhere. I have a problem with someone acting as if someone's end times doctrine is a determining factor in whether or not they are saved. I've seen others on this forum do that as well, and it's unacceptable. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. And not by believing the correct end times doctrine. It's not helpful to believe in false doctrine and can lead to worse things, but that alone does not mean someone is not saved.
If I may, @David in NJ has zero power to condemn anyone to Hell.
Their insisting on promotion of falsehood despite scripture to the contrary,and their insistence in refusing correction is their Hell of their own making.
I think what we cannot do is permit them to bring others into that should they be led to believe David and not God.
God's grace saves us from condemnation. Yet some insist he is not going to save us from God's wrath upon the world we are told we are no longer part of being we are in Him,Christ Jesus.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Of course not.
I'm not disagreeing with his post-trib doctrine. I'm post-trib as well. I disagree with condemning anyone for their end times beliefs. None of us here believe that any believer will experience God's wrath, so it's not as if some are saying we will and some are saying we won't.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Prove that it's true then. I have yet to see one single strong, coherent argument from a pre-trib to support that doctrine. Can you be the first to do so? Please do if you can.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Did you READ my words: "It is the LORD JESUS who SAVES us whether pre/mid/post trib." - Post 730
Neither do i
GOOD - SAME with me!
I have only seen pre-fibbers accuse JESUS and His Post-tribbers of lying and not being SAVED and/or deserving God's Wrath
Correct, UNLESS when the Mark of the Beast comes and the pre-fibbers take the Mark.
EXAMPLE: John McArthur, a pre-fibber, says you can take the Mark of the Beast and be forgiven =
That is TWO BIG LIES = pre-trib rapture and taking the Mark will be forgiven
So there is a CLEAR example of believing in FALSE TEACHING/DOCTRINE that leads to eternal Death.
Taken
Well-Known Member
You can repeat your words, your understanding over and over and over….Doesn’t change the FACTS…
Some ARE Sav-ED….and SHALL be raised by the Lord…
Some SHALL be Sav-ED….and SHALL be raised by God.
1 Cor 2:
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Scriptural DOCTRINE itself differentiates…
IN Christ…IN Jesus….Because YOU are without understanding….blame yourself…it is your burden, NOT MINE!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Of course. And what is required from us? Repentance and faith, right? Not believing the correct end times doctrine.
Then why do you reference Revelation 22:18-19 as if it applies to pre-tribs? At least, that's how it came across. Anyone who adds to the book of Revelation will experience God's wrath. Only unsaved people experience His wrath, right? Anyone who takes away from the book will not have their name in the book of life and will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). So, we shouldn't accuse pre-tribs of doing either of those things, right? Unless we know somehow that they are doing it purposely.
That's how you come across as well if you indicate that Revelation 22:18-19 applies to them, as I've explained multiple times now.
I don't see the mark as being physical, but that's another story.
I don't know if that's a typical pre-trib belief, but it's obviously ridiculous. What does that even mean? Clearly, those with the mark of the beast will end up in the lake of fire. I wonder if he has ever read this:
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Such nonsense that obviously isn't taught anywhere in scripture. Jesus is Christ. The Lord is God. You trying to differentiate like this is a complete joke.
You can apply this verse to your own lack of understanding of the things we're talking about.
It does not do that anywhere. You have a doctrine all to yourself. There's a reason why no one else agrees with this nonsense.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Because pre-trib rapture is a lie and JESUS is WARNING everyone in Revelation chapter 22
pre-fibbers CHANGE the scriptures in many places so that they can worship their idol = very bad
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
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