Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[ewq1938]

Show me where the Church is used after Chapter 5 and before Chapter 19.

I already did that.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, you did but you are doing so under the assumption that the Church (His Body, Bride) will still be on earth. Rev 19 show the marriage supper ( indicative of the ancient Jewish Wedding). If you are trying to impress with verb tenses, don't even try.It does not work for the Literal, Historical, grammatical, synthetical interpretation is all that is needed for the reading of Revelation.

Don't speak of "Grammatical" when you won't even listen to what verb tenses tell us.

 

[dad]

Yes.

Verse? Hopefully you do not spam the verse about Jesus returning right after the tribulation.

Alluding is valid since we all are familiar with the verses.

Not really since they seem to say strange things to you. You need to be clear

No, it is written in the last verse of Rev 12 that the war is against those who follow Christ, which excludes non-believers like Jew unless they are Christian Jews of course. I assume alluding to and naming the verse is enough as opposed to copy and pasting it?

Rev 12:18 spans several years. Of course the evil leader and Satan attack those fleeing believers. What about it?

All; Christians who are valid Christians are the church. Your denial means squat.

The churches Jesus talked to had a lot of people that were not actually. Look around today, the word church is about as meaningful as the word bank or museum. Denying that would mean diddly squat

Wrong, (same verse as I mentioned before).

Whatever verse you are thinking about in your head here would need to establish that there was no gathering together in the air, Try to focus

No, did you?? More hilarious.

Since that verse was insignificant in the timing of the rapture your quest here is to find a verse or verses that actually deal with the issue. Pretending will get you nowhere

 

[dad]

I already did that.

Sure it is easy, just replace the folks the bible talks about with the word 'church' and presto!

 

[David in NJ]

What I was saying, how does the millennium get populated according to the Bible if the Rapture is Post trib. Think About it.

Good Morning and thank you for the clarity.

Let's think about it = the Way our FATHER in Heaven Thinks = OK

The LORD promised HE would not destroy all flesh when HE pours out His Wrath at His Second Coming = Matthew 24:15-22

Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

"those days will be shortened = God's Mercy Triumphs over Judgment - James 2:13

OT Prophecy that God, who KNOWS the hearts of ALL men, will sustain a population of people on earth to repopulate.

Zechariah chapter 14 is the EXPLICIT OT Prophecy of the Second Coming of the LORD

1Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You. = this is directly quoted by the Apostle Paul in 1 Thess chapters 3 and 4
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.

DIRECT Promise and Prophecy of the LORD that HE will preserve peoples from the nations during the Great Tribulation.
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

SHALOM and Good Morning

 

[David in NJ]

Is the word Trinity in the Bible, yet we know through it doctrines that there are three distinct persons of the Godhead. The Father, The Holy Spirit and The Son, Jesus Christ.

100% CORRECT

Likewise, the word/phrase 'pre-trib rapture' also is NOT in the Bible!

Here is the Difference:
#1 - Beginning in Genesis, God lays the Foundation of all TRUTH that is to follow.
#2 - The very First TRUTH is the correct word ELOHIM which literally means 'Gods' = Plural
In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

#3 - Beginning in Genesis chapter 1 the PLURALITY of Elohim is EXPLICITLY and Precisely Spoken by the LORD.
Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; = THREE/3 Persons

The LORD will continue throughout Scripture to Reveal Who ELOHIM actually IS in Genesis.

Genesis chapters 12 thru 35 EXPLICITLY and Precisely declares Who ELOHIM is in 3 men = Abraham/Isaac/Jacob

Exodus chapter 3 IRREVOCABLY Validates, for all Eternity, Who Elohim is.

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The YHWH Elohim of your fathers,
#1 - Elohenu of Abraham
#2 - Elohenu of Isaac
#3 - Elohenu of Jacob
has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.

The Gospel Seals the Final Validation of Elohim = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT are Echad(United One)

This is the Difference between 'Trinity' and 'pre-trib rapture' = there does not exist in ALL of Scripture a single Prophecy or Allegorical Truth
of a 'pre-trib' rapture.

IMPORTANT: the Rapture is 100% TRUTH, whereas pre-trib is 100% falsehood/lie

 

[David in NJ]

I call people spamming off target verses rather than addressing the topic with Scripture spam. Work on that

unbelievers call Scripture "spam" = You need to "work on that" at the Feet of JESUS

 

[rebuilder 454]

100% CORRECT

Likewise, the word/phrase 'pre-trib rapture' also is NOT in the Bible!

Here is the Difference:
#1 - Beginning in Genesis, God lays the Foundation of all TRUTH that is to follow.
#2 - The very First TRUTH is the correct word ELOHIM which literally means 'Gods' = Plural
In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

#3 - Beginning in Genesis chapter 1 the PLURALITY of Elohim is EXPLICITLY and Precisely Spoken by the LORD.
Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; = THREE/3 Persons

The LORD will continue throughout Scripture to Reveal Who ELOHIM actually IS in Genesis.

Genesis chapters 12 thru 35 EXPLICITLY and Precisely declares Who ELOHIM is in 3 men = Abraham/Isaac/Jacob

Exodus chapter 3 IRREVOCABLY Validates, for all Eternity, Who Elohim is.

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The YHWH Elohim of your fathers,
#1 - Elohenu of Abraham
#2 - Elohenu of Isaac
#3 - Elohenu of Jacob
has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.

The Gospel Seals the Final Validation of Elohim = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT are Echad(United One)

This is the Difference between 'Trinity' and 'pre-trib rapture' = there does not exist in ALL of Scripture a single Prophecy or Allegorical Truth
of a 'pre-trib' rapture.

IMPORTANT: the Rapture is 100% TRUTH, whereas pre-trib is 100% falsehood/lie

All rapture verses are peacetime, normal life and commerce.
Your model makes all that a lie.
That alone wrecks your ENTIRE DEAL.

 

[David in NJ]

All rapture verses are peacetime, normal life and commerce.
Your model makes all that a lie.
That alone wrecks your ENTIRE DEAL.

The "peace time/normal life" is ONLY for the world = "they" and "them"

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.


as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
A.) - until the day that Noah entered the ark,
B.) - and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away,
C.) - so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

you better know your ABC's

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No! One gospel for all. However, Gentile believers are treated differently from Israeli (Jewish) believers as attested to in Acts 15. Israeli believers remain obligated to OT practices.

No, they are not. The old covenant was made obsolete long ago (Hebrews 8:13). Nowhere in Acts 15 does it say that Israelite believers are obligated to continue the old covenant practices.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

This says that God "put no difference between us (Jewish Christians) and them (Gentile Christians), purifying their hearts by faith". You are trying to make a difference between them, but there is not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What does that have to do with anything? What 'one'? Read Acts 15. Is a Gentile believer required to be circumcised? No! Is a Jewish believer required to be circumcised? Yes! Can two people serve two different masters?

I don't see anywhere in Acts 15 that requires a Jewish Christian to be circumcised. Tell me where you are seeing that. Why would that be required of them?

Has God abandoned those real Jews who do not yet believe in Yeshua? Romans 11:1 "I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be!" It's because God has prevented them from seeing Yeshua as the Messiah and rejected Him that we, the Gentiles, can experience/enjoy God's favour.
What happens when the vale is lifted?

The veil has been lifted for plenty of Jews who were formerly blinded for the past almost 2,000 years. Notice how Paul hoped to help save some of them who were blinded in his day.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think you are missing my point…

Alive or SLEEP…. “IN” Jesus….
Is NOT the same as alive or sleep “IN” Christ…

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Read those passages carefully….
IN Jesus…are raised by God. (Resurrection)
IN Christ…are raised by the Lord. (Rapture)

You need to stop this "IN Jesus" and "IN Christ" nonsense if you want to be taken seriously. There is no difference between being in Jesus and in Christ. This is what people do when they try to make scripture say that what they want it to say.

Do you see that?
Do you believe that?
Do you understand the difference? And why?

There is no difference. You're the only one in the world who thinks there is. Jesus is Christ, so to be in Jesus is to be in Christ. This is absolutely ridiculous to try to claim there is a difference.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

JESUS says you are here for Tribulation as did His Apostles.

When you study under pre-trib rapture you place yourself under a lie and you will not be able to SEE the Truth in the Scriptures concerning His Second Coming.

Amen. Jesus promises all of us that we will have tribulation in this world, so any who are thinking they will avoid it are fooling themselves.

John 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

Matthew 6:34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Show me where the Church is used after Chapter 5 and before Chapter 19. just one will do. Yes, in Rev 11, the two witnesses (not part of the Church of Jesus Christ) are described in (Zechariah 4:2-3 and 4:14).

They are from the OT..Why didn't you know that? Who has been teaching you?

Grace be unto you!

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Who else but those who are in the church "keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nooooo....Revelation plainly states, after the Battle of Armegeddon is over, The sheep and Goat judgements starts. The sheep are believers and the goats are non-believers that are still alive at this time.. Here the Goats (unbelievers) are thrown into the Lake of Fire. If what you are saying is true, then God takes up the dead ( the believers in Christ) first and those who are alive will be taken in the air to be with Jesus for ever and ever...The problem here is that the church (if your words are true) along with all others who are still alive at this time,

The problem with your version of the Post rapture world is this...Immediately after the Battle of Armegeddon, the sheep and goat Judgements are given by Jesus and the Goats (unbelievers) are thrown into the lake of fire...The sheep, (the church believers from before the tribulation, the tribulation saints, the ot saints and those that have managed to stay alive and believe in Jesus during Daniel's 70th week, will be caught up to heaven to be with Jesus forever. This leaves NO-ONE on earth for the 1,000 yrs (millennium) of the kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Yet, you still say this is right....????

Unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire after the thousand years (Revelation 20:15). You're arguing about whether pre-trib premil or post-trib premil is correct and neither are correct. Amillennialism is the only way to reconcile the fact that unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire when Jesus comes at the end of the age (Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46).

 

[David in NJ]

Amen. Jesus promises all of us that we will have tribulation in this world, so any who are thinking they will avoid it are fooling themselves.

John 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

Matthew 6:34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

It is far worse then fooling themselves, for it is deliberate refusal to bow their knee & heart unto the Scriptures which only Speak TRUTH.

They do not reverence this WARNING from the LORD - Proverbs 30:5-6 & Revelation 22:18-19

They obey what their pastors tell them OVER the very words of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is far worse then fooling themselves, for it is deliberate refusal to bow their knee & heart unto the Scriptures which only Speak TRUTH.

They do not reverence this WARNING from the LORD - Proverbs 30:5-6 & Revelation 22:18-19

They obey what their pastors tell them OVER the very words of God.

I would not apply Revelation 22:18-19 to them. Believing in pre-trib does not mean someone isn't a Christian. That's a very serious accusation because it means you are saying they are not saved and will experience God's wrath and have their names removed from the book of life. I've had people falsely accuse me of adding to or taking away from the words of the book of Revelation and they are in far more danger than I am because of falsely judging/condemning me (Matt 7:1-2). Revelation 22:18-19 applies to those who purposely add to or take away from the words of the book of Revelation. How do we know if someone is doing that purposely or not? For the most part, we don't. They might just be ignorant. That passage is not referring to those who are ignorant and misinterpret the book because of their ignorance. It's talking about people who know they are adding to or taking away from the book in order to make it say what they want it to say.

 

[David in NJ]

I would not apply Revelation 22:18-19 to them. Believing in pre-trib does not mean someone isn't a Christian. That's a very serious accusation because it means you are saying they are not saved and will experience God's wrath and have their names removed from the book of life. I've had people falsely accuse me of adding to or taking away from the words of the book of Revelation and they are in far more danger than I am because of falsely judging/condemning me (Matt 7:1-2). Revelation 22:18-19 applies to those who purposely add to or take away from the words of the book of Revelation. How do we know if someone is doing that purposely or not? For the most part, we don't. They might just be ignorant. That passage is not referring to those who are ignorant and misinterpret the book because of their ignorance. It's talking about people who know they are adding to or taking away from the book in order to make it say what they want it to say.

Rev 22: 18-19 applies to anyone = Saved or not

If your name is in the Lamb's Book of Life it means you are SAVED = Luke 10:20

God knows the intent, motives, and thoughts of the heart = HE Alone will Judge each one of us.

Sinning through willful ignorance is still SIN, however, God has His Love to Help todays 'christians' = Revelation 3:18-22

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 22: 18-19 applies to anyone = Saved or not

If your name is in the Lamb's Book of Life it means you are SAVED = Luke 10:20

God knows the intent, motives, and thoughts of the heart = HE Alone will Judge each one of us.

Sinning through willful ignorance is still SIN, however, God has His Love to Help todays 'christians' = Revelation 3:18-22

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”

Did you read Revelation 22:18-19 carefully?

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This says that anyone who adds to the book will suffer the plagues written about in the book. That's far beyond rebuke! That's God's wrath which is ONLY reserved for the unsaved. If someone takes away from the book then "God shall take away his part out of the book of life". If your name isn't in the book of life then you're not saved. So, you apparently are underestimating the seriousness of what is written there. By applying that passage to anyone here, you are saying they are not saved and will experience God's wrath.

 

[David in NJ]

Did you read Revelation 22:18-19 carefully?

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This says that anyone who adds to the book will suffer the plagues written about in the book. That's far beyond rebuke! That's God's wrath which is ONLY reserved for the unsaved. If someone takes away from the book then "God shall take away his part out of the book of life". If your name isn't in the book of life then you're not saved. So, you apparently are underestimating the seriousness of what is written there. By applying that passage to anyone here, you are saying they are not saved and will experience God's wrath.

Pay Careful ATTENTION to His Word in Revelation chapter 22

the LORD JESUS CHRIST says:
A.) For I testify unto every man = saved or sinner = you, me and everyone else
B.) If any man shall add unto these thing = saved or sinner = you, me and everyone else
C.) If someone takes away from the book = saved = you, me and everyone else who believes

VERSE 16 - I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.
verses 17-19
VERSE 20 - He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

Do you now understand how SERIOUS the LORD is concerning His words???

His Mercy and Love on the modern day 'christians' is this: Revelation 3:18-22

Those who cling to the idol of pre-trib will be rebuked by the LORD when the Antichrist comes that HE may SAVE some.

Victory in JESUS = "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

Repentance = “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."