Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Bladerunner]

The wicked are killed. Some were maybe not really preached the gospel to understand much. Some were good to His children in that evil time. They will not die with the wicked I would assume.

Not really....In your scenario, according to the word of GOD, all wicked, sinful that are alive after the Battle at Armegiddion, (Goats) are placed in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. Those who are alive after this are true believers and they are taken to heaven.....that is no one left to populate the millennium in your scenario.

The falling away of those in the churches on earth accompanied by the last true believer before God (the father) tells Jesus to get His Bride (Rapture). Only after this happens, can the anti-christ be publically known and future events begin.

 

[ewq1938]

Who will occupy the Millennium on earth if the Rapture is Post-Trib....

The raptured saints will return to tyhe Earth with Christ, along with all the saved dead...

All the unbelievers (goats) are killed or put
into the lake of fire,

Nope. There will be many unsaved who will be ruled over by Christ and the saints, promised in Rev 19 and seen in Rev 20.

all the Believers on earth are taken to heaven...that leaves not one for the millennium.

The rapture is to the clouds of Earth not to heaven where God is.

 

[ewq1938]

It is IMPOSSIBLE for God's Wrath to be taking place PRIOR to the 6th Seal

Doesn't happen at the opening of the 6th seal either since all the seals are visions of the future.

 

[Keraz]

Doesn't happen at the opening of the 6th seal either since all the seals are visions of the future.

This is wrong: proved by the Fifth Seal, of all the Christian Martyrs since Stephen. He, and all those horribly murdered Christians, are worthy of having their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.

 

[Taken]

@David in NJ

Good morning brother ~

Whenever the topic of Heaven, Hell, Tribulations, Wrath, body, soul, spirit, Church, Rapture, Resurrection, Judgements, Times, Names, Titles (etc.) are discussed….or spoken in the discussion …and individuals have DIFFERENT meanings and understandings of such WORDS… the end result of the DISCUSSION is Disagreement.

To engage in a “secular” discussion using such WORDS…can mean whatever is Broad COMMON understanding among men.

To engage in a [meaningful “spiritual” discussion…such WORDS must have the meaning and understanding according to God, WHO IS Spirit.
(And therein lies the dilemma….among men, OF men who have NOT FIRST concluded in Agreement, what Certain WORDS mean, according to God.)

Men HAVE a spirit, God IS a Spirit and HAS 7 Spirits, which are the SAME ONE Spirit.
Discussing Spiritual things, to HAVE a meaningful outcome OF AGREEMENT, MUST Be according to Gods “meaning and understanding”…of His Words.

You and I have disagreements…same as others on this forum. I do not know IF or What you study….ONLY for myself WHAT I have studied and asked God for His verifications and the WHY I conclude and have confidence in WHAT I believe and WHAT I say is according TO and approved OF God.

Many men Anciently, Historically, Modernly have BEEN “resurrected”. Which “simply” means…their BODY died, their Living soul departed their dead BODY, their Living soul was Returned (by the authority and power of God) to their dead body, and their body resumed Living.

ALL men SHALL “ultimately” BECOME “resurrected”….
Some men’s Departed Living souls SHALL BE (like anciently, historically, modernly) RETURNED to their Natural rotting decayed Corpse, and that rotting decayed Corpse raised UP, alive “temporarily,” to FACE Judgement (of their body, soul, spirit).

Some men’s Departed Living souls SHALL BE (unlike anciently, historically, modernly)
RETURNED to their “Promised” MADE Glorified Body raised UP, alive “forever”, to FACE Judgement (of their body, soul, spirit).

The Resurrection(s)…specifically APPLIES TO: Believers IN God and His Word…(Jesus)
(From which you quoted… 1 Thes 4: [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And

TO: Non-Believers IN God and or His Word…

And

The RAPTURE….specifically APPLIES TO:
Christ’s CHURCH…WHOM Christ Raises UP TO THE CLOUDS…
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Remember…the Son of Man came to Earth, From Heaven and Returned to Heaven.

The RAPTURE is the Lord descending from Heaven TO the Clouds (not Earth) and summoning UP TO HIM….”HIS Church”….
The souls saved “IN” CHRIST…the quickened spirits “IN” Christ and their bodys….to FOREVER BE FACE to FACE with the Lord, WHERE-EVER He IS.

So…as Scripture teaches…don’t worry about the buried body’s of (saved souls God SAVED) (anciently, historically, BEFORE Jesus Arrived on earth)….God shall RAISE UP their BODY”s during the end of days Resurrection….

Do you KNOW WHAT and WHY…??? a DIFFERENCE…(end of days RESURRECTiON and A RAPTURE) between…
Souls saved by God…and “their bodies” and “timing” to be Raised Up??
And
Souls saved by Christ the Lord…and “their bodies” and “timing” to be RAISED Up??

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[dad]

Not really....In your scenario, according to the word of GOD, all wicked, sinful that are alive after the Battle at Armegiddion, (Goats) are placed in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. Those who are alive after this are true believers and they are taken to heaven.....that is no one left to populate the millennium in your scenario.

I do not think all people on earth are either at that battle, or would want to be. Nor, of course does Scripture say anything like that.

The falling away of those in the churches on earth accompanied by the last true believer before God (the father) tells Jesus to get His Bride (Rapture).

I would think they are already fallen away for the most part. But sure, no doubt this continues

Only after this happens, can the anti-christ be publically known and future events begin.

Sounds right to me. A Rapture before a revealing.

 

[ewq1938]

Sounds right to me. A Rapture before a revealing.

Except it's an Apostasy from the faith that happens not a rapture.

 

[David in NJ]

@David in NJ

Good morning brother ~

Whenever the topic of Heaven, Hell, Tribulations, Wrath, body, soul, spirit, Church, Rapture, Resurrection, Judgements, Times, Names, Titles (etc.) are discussed….or spoken in the discussion …and individuals have DIFFERENT meanings and understandings of such WORDS… the end result of the DISCUSSION is Disagreement.

To engage in a “secular” discussion using such WORDS…can mean whatever is Broad COMMON understanding among men.

To engage in a [meaningful “spiritual” discussion…such WORDS must have the meaning and understanding according to God, WHO IS Spirit.
(And therein lies the dilemma….among men, OF men who have NOT FIRST concluded in Agreement, what Certain WORDS mean, according to God.)

Men HAVE a spirit, God IS a Spirit and HAS 7 Spirits, which are the SAME ONE Spirit.
Discussing Spiritual things, to HAVE a meaningful outcome OF AGREEMENT, MUST Be according to Gods “meaning and understanding”…of His Words.

You and I have disagreements…same as others on this forum. I do not know IF or What you study….ONLY for myself WHAT I have studied and asked God for His verifications and the WHY I conclude and have confidence in WHAT I believe and WHAT I say is according TO and approved OF God.

Many men Anciently, Historically, Modernly have BEEN “resurrected”. Which “simply” means…their BODY died, their Living soul departed their dead BODY, their Living soul was Returned (by the authority and power of God) to their dead body, and their body resumed Living.

ALL men SHALL “ultimately” BECOME “resurrected”….
Some men’s Departed Living souls SHALL BE (like anciently, historically, modernly) RETURNED to their Natural rotting decayed Corpse, and that rotting decayed Corpse raised UP, alive “temporarily,” to FACE Judgement (of their body, soul, spirit).

Some men’s Departed Living souls SHALL BE (unlike anciently, historically, modernly)
RETURNED to their “Promised” MADE Glorified Body raised UP, alive “forever”, to FACE Judgement (of their body, soul, spirit).

The Resurrection(s)…specifically APPLIES TO: Believers IN God and His Word…(Jesus)
(From which you quoted… 1 Thes 4: [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And

TO: Non-Believers IN God and or His Word…

And

The RAPTURE….specifically APPLIES TO:
Christ’s CHURCH…WHOM Christ Raises UP TO THE CLOUDS…
1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Remember…the Son of Man came to Earth, From Heaven and Returned to Heaven.

The RAPTURE is the Lord descending from Heaven TO the Clouds (not Earth) and summoning UP TO HIM….”HIS Church”….
The souls saved “IN” CHRIST…the quickened spirits “IN” Christ and their bodys….to FOREVER BE FACE to FACE with the Lord, WHERE-EVER He IS.

So…as Scripture teaches…don’t worry about the buried body’s of (saved souls God SAVED) (anciently, historically, BEFORE Jesus Arrived on earth)….God shall RAISE UP their BODY”s during the end of days Resurrection….

Do you KNOW WHAT and WHY…??? a DIFFERENCE…(end of days RESURRECTiON and A RAPTURE) between…
Souls saved by God…and “their bodies” and “timing” to be Raised Up??
And
Souls saved by Christ the Lord…and “their bodies” and “timing” to be RAISED Up??

Glory to God,
Taken

Good Morning my Brother in CHRIST,

The RAPTURE….specifically APPLIES TO: Christ’s CHURCH…WHOM Christ Raises UP TO THE CLOUDS…

ABSOLUTE TRUTH, just as you posted 1 Thess 4:13-18

Remember…the Son of Man came to Earth, From Heaven and Returned to Heaven.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE/TRUTH

The RAPTURE is the Lord descending from Heaven TO the Clouds (not Earth) and summoning UP TO HIM….”HIS Church”….

ABSOLUTE TRUTH, just as you posted 1 Thess 4:13-18

What MUST take place BEFORE the Rapture according to the every Words of the LORD

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[David in NJ]

Doesn't happen at the opening of the 6th seal either since all the seals are visions of the future.

AGREE - and it is very sad that those who say things like "I've studied the Bible for 100 years" and yet they are unable to SEE that simple fact that the Opening of the Seals are 'revealing' to us from the LORD in His Revelation.

They are NOT the actuation of what is being revealed = but of what will be, some of which is already taking place and has been for a long time now.

The burning up of 1/3 of trees is a conglomerate over Time that will continue to manifest itself = and it is not hard to SEE this.

Furthermore the 1/3 can also be symbolic, pointing to more truth/understanding just as the number 7 speaks of Christ
and the number 3 speaks of the FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT = 3 = Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3

Finally all things will be fulfilled as "it is written".

 

[David in NJ]

No, it just is not completed yet. It is being poured out already in that seal

You tell us. Then tell us how it relates to the topic and point

No, it just is not completed yet. It is being poured out already in that seal

Let me get this straight from you for clarity:

You fully believe that God's wrath is being poured out in the 5th Seal?
YES or NO?

 

[David in NJ]

Who will occupy the Millennium on earth if the Rapture is Post-Trib....All the unbelievers (goats) are killed or put
into the lake of fire, all the Believers on earth are taken to heaven...that leaves not one for the millennium.

This is a very easy answer if you knew OT prophecy as well as the Book of Revelation.

 

[dad]

Except it's an Apostasy from the faith that happens not a rapture.

I think so too. But what does that have to do with the Rapture happening before the AntiChrist is revealed?

 

[dad]

Let me get this straight from you for clarity:

You fully believe that God's wrath is being poured out in the 5th Seal?
YES or NO?

Some of it yes of course. Did you think a quarter of people dying on earth etc etc in the seals was a picnic in the park? Obviously the final vengeance when Jesus returns is the final scene of the wrath. You do not get to ignore the rest though, as pointed out there are many days of vengeance as Jesus said.

 

[Taken]

Good Morning my Brother in CHRIST,


ABSOLUTE TRUTH, just as you posted 1 Thess 4:13-18


ABSOLUTELY TRUE/TRUTH


ABSOLUTE TRUTH, just as you posted 1 Thess 4:13-18

What MUST take place BEFORE the Rapture according to the every Words of the LORD

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

I think you are missing my point…

Alive or SLEEP…. “IN” Jesus….
Is NOT the same as alive or sleep “IN” Christ…

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
[/QUOTE]

Read those passages carefully….
IN Jesus…are raised by God. (Resurrection)
IN Christ…are raised by the Lord. (Rapture)

Do you see that?
Do you believe that?
Do you understand the difference? And why?


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[David in NJ]

Some of it yes of course. Did you think a quarter of people dying on earth etc etc in the seals was a picnic in the park? Obviously the final vengeance when Jesus returns is the final scene of the wrath. You do not get to ignore the rest though, as pointed out there are many days of vengeance as Jesus said.

the 5th Seal is only about His People = the Elect of God = Jew & Gentile in JESUS the MESSIAH

It is IMPOSSIBLE that His Wrath is being poured out on His Saints.

"wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

The Holy Spirit 'Bookended' 1 Thessalonians for us to SEE = no Wrath of God upon the Saints/Elect/Church

bookend /boo͝k′ĕnd″/

noun​

1. A prop placed at the end of a row of books to keep them upright.
2. A support placed at the end of a row of books to keep them upright (on a shelf or table).
3. A heavy object or moveable support placed at one or both ends of a row of books for the purpose of keeping them upright.

Dear Lord Jesus Christ, open my Brothers eyes that they may SEE your Truth and deliver then from the lie of pre-trib rapture

 

[Biblepaige]

Jesus said that the gates of hell could not prevail over the church. That does not mean many would not be killed or that there would not be persecution in some areas. Yes we can also interpret that this means the church is safe from death because we have eternal life. But obviously the meaning is special and important to the church. The believers of old before the church also had eternal life by believing Jesus would come one day. So Jesus promising that the forces of hell would never prevail over the church includes a special protection for our existence here on earth, to preach the gospel and etc.

During the tribulation, believers are broken as a power and public group and organization. They will be hunted and killed and not allowed to preach or even buy food etc. If the church were still here at that time the words of Jesus would be false and void.

That proves there has to be a gathering of the church together in the air before that time. It will be new believers who face these things and not the church.

I think it's a bit inconsistent for the church to insist God saved us through Jesus only to insist he won't save us from his wrath to come when as those reborn in him by his grace we are not objects of that wrath.


I like this teaching because this Thessalonians passage is often and wrongly referred to by those who think we will suffer God's wrath.

 

[David in NJ]

I think you are missing my point…

Alive or SLEEP…. “IN” Jesus….
Is NOT the same as alive or sleep “IN” Christ…

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Read those passages carefully….
IN Jesus…are raised by God. (Resurrection)
IN Christ…are raised by the Lord. (Rapture)

Do you see that?
Do you believe that?
Do you understand the difference? And why?


Glory to God,
Taken

You cannot separate JESUS from CHRIST = If you speak of JESUS then you automatically speak of CHRIST in the Scriptures

Therefore the Scriptures Declare:

Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

[David in NJ]

I think it's a bit inconsistent for the church to insist God saved us through Jesus only to insist he won't save us from his wrath to come when as those reborn in him by his grace we are not objects of that wrath.


I like this teaching because this Thessalonians passage is often and wrongly referred to by those who think we will suffer God's wrath.

For more accurate teaching in the TRUTH SEE post 655 and 657

 

[dad]

I think it's a bit inconsistent for the church to insist God saved us through Jesus only to insist he won't save us from his wrath to come when as those reborn in him by his grace we are not objects of that wrath.


I like this teaching because this Thessalonians passage is often and wrongly referred to by those who think we will suffer God's wrath.

I'll check it out when I get time. The strategy here for some posters is to desperately avoid calling the last years the wrath of God, but only the 20 minutes Jesus returns and destroys the wicked (or whatever time in a day that takes). That way they think they can say we do get appointed to stay here for the tribulation.

 

[Biblepaige]

For more accurate teaching in the TRUTH SEE post 655 and 657

I have witnessed the truth in teaching.

That which insists the church,all,will suffer God's wrath is false.

Though those not really in the church will suffer. Maybe that's what God is alerting them to when they think all regenerate reborn in Christ people will be here to suffer the wrath of God.

God doesn't deposit his wrath upon those whom he first saved by his grace.