Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Spiritual Israelite]

The thing is, you are both right.
But the bride is the Gentile church.
Thus is illustrated in The book of Ruth.
The Jew is the Wayward wife.
God has blinded her for a season that the bride may be established.
The bride is removed pretrib and the purpose of the trib is to prepare the harvest of the Jew.
(Rev14)

There is no such thing as "the Gentile church". You are making things up to make scripture say what you want it to say. There is one church of Jesus Christ and it consists of both Jew and Gentile believers. There is neither Jew nor Gentile and we are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26-29).

 

[marks]

In verse 32 Paul indicates that what he talked about previously was a mystery. So, he knew it might not be clear what he was talking about when going back and forth talking about how a husband should treat his wife.

That's not what "musterion" means. It's not like "a puzzle to be solved". Musterion, translated here "mystery" speaks of something previously unknowable, but now is being revealed. You couldn't know it without God revealing this to you.

Ephesians 5:25-33 KJV
25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28) So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32) This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33) Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

The Apostle takes the occassion of teaching concerning husbands and wives to reveal something about Jesus and the church.

Jesus loves and nurtures and cares for the church, so that He can present it to Himself glorious and perfect. This is how men should love their wives.

In fact loving your wife is loving yourself, because just like us with Jesus, the two have become one flesh. This is a mystery speaking of Christ and the church, but is now revealed, we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone, being members of His body.

So just like this, the man is to love his wife, because she and he are likewise one flesh. Flesh of my flesh, and bone of my bone.

There isn't actually even a simile of our relationship with Christ being like a husband and wife in this passage. There is a clearly stated identification of of the church being members of His body, of His flesh and of His bone. This is plainly stated and should not be questioned.

The comparison comes in as the Apostle uses our relationship with Christ, members of His body, as the example for husbands and wives, that the husband should love the wife as Christ loves the church. Because just like the church and Christ, the husband and wife are also of the same flesh and bone.

Using this passage to assert that the church is the bride of Christ is misuse, as it does not teach that.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's not what "musterion" means. It's not like "a puzzle to be solved". Musterion, translated here "mystery" speaks of something previously unknowable, but now is being revealed.

That's what I'm saying. You obviously misunderstood what I was saying. Paul was revealing a mystery there which is that the relationship between Christ and the church is just like the relationship between a husband and wife and he was clearly indicating that Christ is our husband in a spiritual sense and we, the church, are His wife/bride. This is very obvious to anyone who doesn't interpret the passage with doctrinal bias.

 

[David in NJ]

I don't hate you. So when you say I do you are false. I'm sorry to speak plainly! What makes discussion with you so very distasteful to me is your disdain for others, your propensity to share your many negative opinions of others as though you are the judge and your pronouncements fact. And now you've got a thread going on about the poor hateful liars boasting arrogantly against God's truth. At every turn you double down on this. Can you not see this is wrong??

Much love!

You cannot see that you are standing with the Pharisees and your post here is what they accused JESUS, the Apostles and Stephen.

i DOUBLE UP on Scripture that exposes the lies that denoMANations have created in their unbelief through hardness of heart

You cannot have it both ways @marks, you cannot please man and God at the same time for you will cling to one and hate the other

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

#1a) perversion of the Gospel in modern day 'christianity' = pre-trib rapture

#1b) perversion of the Gospel - "two gospels" , one gospel for the Jew and a separate gospel for the Gentile

#1c) perversion of the Gospel - cessation of the Gifts/Baptism of the Holy Spirit

#1d) perversion of the Gospel - multiple returns of the Second Coming of Christ

#1e) perversion of the Gospel - Rapture BEFORE Resurrection

#1f) perversion of the Gospel - Jews are the Bride of Christ - Gentiles are excluded and/or are a separate Bride

#1g) perversion of the Gospel - separating Jews from gentiles in MESSIAH

and there are more

 

[David in NJ]

Where does it say in scripture that the seals and events in the last seven years are not the wrath of God? Your only strategy here would be to try to limit what is called the wrath of God to the very end of the tribulation or when Jesus returns. That doesn't fly.

SIMPLE - There is no wrath of God in the Seals UNTIL you get to the Sixth Seal

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs = No wrath of God in seals 1-5​

9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances = this is where the Wrath of God Begins​

12I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

[dad]

SIMPLE - There is no wrath of God in the Seals UNTIL you get to the Sixth Seal

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

That sounds like it is part of the terrible events that happen in that last time. Before this we see the antichrist riding. The following seal is mass starvation and extreme poverty. In the following seal, we have Death riding and a quarter of the population on earth dying! That is part of that tribulation time! Then in the next seal scene we have tribulation martyrs in heaven so we know it is the time of the Great Tribulation here!

Also, in the verse about the wrath of God is come, who says that (although it includes the final part) it did not also include these other seals?

 

[marks]

You obviously misunderstood what I was saying. Paul was revealing a mystery

Good, I'm glad you understood this.

I gave you a correct interpretation which is directly from the passage, relying directly on the exact statements given.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

That sounds like it is part of the terrible events that happen in that last time. Before this we see the antichrist riding. The following seal is mass starvation and extreme poverty. In the following seal, we have Death riding and a quarter of the population on earth dying! That is part of that tribulation time! Then in the next seal scene we have tribulation martyrs in heaven so we know it is the time of the Great Tribulation here!

Also, in the verse about the wrath of God is come, who says that (although it includes the final part) it did not also include these other seals?

That is not God's Wrath.

Tribulation is NOT God's Wrath.

God's Wrath is RESERVED for the Second Coming of Christ = the 6th Seal

12I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

@dad , can you see verse 17 ???

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good, I'm glad you understood this.

I gave you a correct interpretation which is directly from the passage, relying directly on the exact statements given.

Much love!

And I correctly showed you that the mystery Paul revealed was that Christ is the husband to his wife, the church. Think about it. Who else has a personal, intimate spiritual relationship with Christ except for those who are in His church? You're turning something simple into something convoluted for no good reason.

Also, scripture repeatedly says that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile in the church, but you're trying to create a difference between them with your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is not God's Wrath.

Tribulation is NOT God's Wrath.

God's Wrath is RESERVED for the Second Coming of Christ = the 6th Seal

12I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

@dad , can you see verse 17 ???

Right. Pretribs are constantly conflating tribulation for believers in the form of persecution and such with God's wrath and that's one reason why their doctrine is so messed up.

 

[David in NJ]

Right. Pretribs are constantly conflating tribulation for believers in the form of persecution and such with God's wrath and that's one reason why their doctrine is so messed up.

As it is written: "there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."


In His Gospel did not the LORD Jesus Christ say:
a.) John 15:18 - “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

b.) John 16:33 - In the world you will have tribulation...............I have Overcome the world"

c.) Matthew 24:9 - Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

d.) Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


CRYSTAL CLEAR that a 5th Grader could read and understand.

CONTEXT: Who was JESUS speaking to? = His Disciples AND all who would believe after them.

CONTEXT: Are you a disciple of CHRIST or of men?

CONTEXT: Are you waiting for the LORD/His Second Coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As it is written: "there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."


In His Gospel did not the LORD Jesus Christ say:
a.) John 15:18 - “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

b.) John 16:33 - In the world you will have tribulation...............I have Overcome the world"

c.) Matthew 24:9 - Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

d.) Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


CRYSTAL CLEAR that a 5th Grader could read and understand.

CONTEXT: Who was JESUS speaking to? = His Disciples AND all who would believe after them.

Agree. Pretribs inexplicably think that verses like those you referenced somehow will no longer apply for a seven year time period before Christ's return. What an insult to all those who in the past almost 2,000 years have faithfully endure tribulation for the sake of Christ to say that everyone in the church in the future will get to avoid that by being taken off of the earth seven years before He returns. There is no basis for that belief whatsoever.

 

[David in NJ]

Agree. Pretribs inexplicably think that verses like those you referenced somehow will no longer apply for a seven year time period before Christ's return. What an insult to all those who in the past almost 2,000 years have faithfully endure tribulation for the sake of Christ to say that everyone in the church in the future will get to avoid that by being taken off of the earth seven years before He returns. There is no basis for that belief whatsoever.

If there were a basis for it, CHRIST would of said so = in His Gospel and certainly HE would of told the Apostles after Penetecost.

Yet, not one declaration from the Apostles, in their letters/writings, of a 7 year FLY-OFF to Heaven and then a return = NOT ONE

As it is written: "there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."

 

[marks]

Also, scripture repeatedly says that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile in the church, but you're trying to create a difference between them with your doctrine.

Not at all. There is neither Greek nor Jew in Christ. I'm certain you know the passage so I don't need to post it.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

SIMPLE - There is no wrath of God in the Seals UNTIL you get to the Sixth Seal

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs = No wrath of God in seals 1-5​

9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances = this is where the Wrath of God Begins​

12I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Regarding the;
7 SEALS…7 TRUMPS….7 VIALS;
ALL 21 are Judgements…(increasing in severity).
The Seals…are ONLY, one by one opened by the Lamb of God…He allows the judgements to be unleashed.

That (7 seals) is the effects of the “wrath of the Lamb”…..

During the Trumps….the “Devils Wrath” is revealed.

During the Vials…”.Gods “Vengeance” AND Wrath” is revealed.

The opening of the Seals…allows the 4 horseman to have “power and authority”…
(Which effects humanity …. While not superseding Gods Power.)

God said in the First Great Tribulation HE would Destroy man….with the Earth…(and God controls the Weather which affects the Earth)

Power being given the 4 horsemen is notice…Satan’s “little time” to “negatively affect the inhabitants of the Earth has begun.”
And moves along forward into the Trumps…
(Same time, the city of Jerusalem is being witnessed to…and the Tribes of Israel are being taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by their own Israelite Kinsmen.

** effects of the Lamb, the devil, God…are negative effects by each, FOR each being “rejected”….by whomever.

** martyrdom will continue throughout the seals and trumps.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[marks]

And I correctly showed you that the mystery Paul revealed was that Christ is the husband to his wife, the church. Think about it. Who else has a personal, intimate spiritual relationship with Christ except for those who are in His church? You're turning something simple into something convoluted for no good reason.

Not so. You've inferred this incorrectly from the passage, which actually is characterizing the husband wife relationship according to the believer's relationship with Christ, being members of His body, of His flesh and of His bone. This is the relationship shown between Christ and the church, being then used as an example for husband and wife.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Regarding the;
7 SEALS…7 TRUMPS….7 VIALS;
ALL 21 are Judgements…(increasing in severity).
The Seals…are ONLY, one by one opened by the Lamb of God…He allows the judgements to be unleashed.

That (7 seals) is the effects of the “wrath of the Lamb”…..

During the Trumps….the “Devils Wrath” is revealed.

During the Vials…”.Gods “Vengeance” AND Wrath” is revealed.

The opening of the Seals…allows the 4 horseman to have “power and authority”…
(Which effects humanity …. While not superseding Gods Power.)

God said in the First Great Tribulation HE would Destroy man….with the Earth…(and God controls the Weather which affects the Earth)

Power being given the 4 horsemen is notice…Satan’s “little time” to “negatively affect the inhabitants of the Earth has begun.”
And moves along forward into the Trumps…
(Same time, the city of Jerusalem is being witnessed to…and the Tribes of Israel are being taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by their own Israelite Kinsmen.

** effects of the Lamb, the devil, God…are negative effects by each, FOR each being “rejected”….by whomever.

** martyrdom will continue throughout the seals and trumps.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

There are judgments of man by man = "those who destroy the earth" Rev 11:18

Those four horsemen are recorded in Zechariah 1:7-10
On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of the Lord came to Zechariah the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet: I saw by night, and behold, a man riding on a red horse, and it stood among the myrtle trees in the hollow; and behind him were horses: red, sorrel, and white.
Then I said, “My lord, what are these?” So the angel who talked with me said to me, “I will show you what they are.”
And the man who stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, “These are the ones whom the Lord has sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth.” = PRESENT Tense

Is the Fifth Seal a Judgment of God? i.e. His Wrath?

 

[dad]

That is not God's Wrath.

Tribulation is NOT God's Wrath.

Yet if it is part of the seals, then all the seals are part of it. Why would we ignore all the horrors God sends to the earth in wrath and judgment and call only the last bit wrath?

God's Wrath is RESERVED for the Second Coming of Christ = the 6th Seal

It does not say that.

12I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

So the same people who said this had seen all the judgments from God and knew this was the time of wrath. It makes sense that they referred to it all. As it ends here they finally come out and say it.


The day of the Lord is a period that includes the 1000 years. It started at the Rapture. So it is fitting to say the day of His wrath has come when the tribulation ends and the people saying it are about to die! I can answer their question though. The saved are able to stand!

 

[David in NJ]

Yet if it is part of the seals, then all the seals are part of it. Why would we ignore all the horrors God sends to the earth in wrath and judgment and call only the last bit wrath?

It does not say that.

So the same people who said this had seen all the judgments from God and knew this was the time of wrath. It makes sense that they referred to it all. As it ends here they finally come out and say it.


The day of the Lord is a period that includes the 1000 years. It started at the Rapture. So it is fitting to say the day of His wrath has come when the tribulation ends and the people saying it are about to die! I can answer their question though. The saved are able to stand!

God's Wrath is RESERVED for the Second Coming of Christ = the 6th Seal

It does say that: "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”"

SAME here - wait to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

SAME here - And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

SAME here - to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

SAME here - But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

SAME here - And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

SAME here -
Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

And MORE

 

[David in NJ]

Yet if it is part of the seals, then all the seals are part of it. Why would we ignore all the horrors God sends to the earth in wrath and judgment and call only the last bit wrath?

It does not say that.

So the same people who said this had seen all the judgments from God and knew this was the time of wrath. It makes sense that they referred to it all. As it ends here they finally come out and say it.


The day of the Lord is a period that includes the 1000 years. It started at the Rapture. So it is fitting to say the day of His wrath has come when the tribulation ends and the people saying it are about to die! I can answer their question though. The saved are able to stand!

Is the Fifth Seal a Judgment of God? i.e. His Wrath?