Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Douggg]

But the second one is not a mix of saved and unsaved. The second one is only for the unsaved and one clue is they are called the dead despite their resurrection having taken place. This is because they are still dead spiritually after the physical resurrection. They are physically resurrected in order to be able to die a second time ie: the second death which has no resurrection.

During the 1000 years, people will be born and die, although their life span may be significantly longer than present. Some of those people will embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation during their life's.

Thus, when the general resurrection for the GWT judgment take place, they will be among those resurrected. And those saved people will receive their eternal life bodies at that time.

 

[ewq1938]

During the 1000 years, people will be born and die, although their life span may be significantly longer than present. Some of those people will embrace Jesus and the gospel of salvation during their life's.

Thus, when the general resurrection for the GWT judgment take place, they will be among those resurrected. And those saved people will receive their eternal life bodies at that time.

There is no evidence anyone is born or dies in the Mill and as I showed, only the dead are present at the final GWTJ. All the saved are living which means they are not among the dead in Rev 20:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[Douggg]

There is no evidence anyone is born or dies in the Mill

People will live longer during the Millennium, but people will be born and die during the Millennium.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

[ewq1938]

People will live longer during the Millennium, but people will be born and die during the Millennium.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

That is not the NT Millennium. God's ppl will be immortal and incapable of having children or dying but in that passage God's ppl do both.

 

[Douggg]

That is not the NT Millennium. God's ppl will be immortal and incapable of having children or dying but in that passage God's ppl do both.

Some of God's people will be immortal during the Revelation 20 millennium.

1. those who take part in the rapture/resurrection event before the great tribulation begins.
2. those who are martyred during the great tribulation and are resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6

There will also be God's people, the great tribulation saints who survive the great tribulation, and enter the Revelation 20 Millennium in their natural bodies capable of having children and dying.

There will also be persons who survive the great tribulation, who are unsaved, that enter the Revelation 20 millennium in their natural bodies. Called the heathen in Psalms 2:8. Jesus will rule during the millennium with a rod of iron over the nations.

 

[Keraz]

Some of God's people will be immortal during the Revelation 20 millennium.

1. those who take part in the rapture/resurrection event before the great tribulation begins.
2. those who are martyred during the great tribulation and are resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6

This belief is wrong and is not possible.
Never will there be, or can there be immortal beings living with mortals. They inhabit different dimensions.

You have no scripture support for a rapture or a general resurrection of Christians before the GT.
The GT martyrs will be resurrected by Jesus at His Return, but not yet into immortality, Rev 20:4-6 is clear; they can die again.

 

[ewq1938]

Some of God's people will be immortal during the Revelation 20 millennium.

No, all will be not only some.

1. those who take part in the rapture/resurrection event before the great tribulation begins.

Those events take place after the trib not before.

 

[ewq1938]

This belief is wrong and is not possible.
Never will there be, or can there be immortal beings living with mortals. They inhabit different dimensions.

False. Christ was immortal and walked among mortals. There is no such "rule" in the bible. It is manmade like all false doctrines and beliefs. Scripture places immortality for man at the second coming via the resurrection for the dead and the change of bodies for the remaining/surviving.

 

[Keraz]

False. Christ was immortal and walked among mortals. There is no such "rule" in the bible. It is manmade like all false doctrines and beliefs. Scripture places immortality for man at the second coming via the resurrection for the dead and the change of bodies for the remaining/surviving.

Jesus was the man who came from heaven. John 3:13 He was born by the Holy Spirit, so you cannot compare Him to normal humans.

The Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, does not happen at the glorious Return. It is about what happens after the Book of Life is opened, Revelation 20:11-15, to those whose names are Written in it. They receive immortality and go into Eternity.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus was the man who came from heaven. John 3:13 He was born by the Holy Spirit, so you cannot compare Him to normal humans.

Yet he was human and was immortal and walked this Earth, which you say is not possible but it is, was and shall be again.

The Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, does not happen at the glorious Return. It is about what happens after the Book of Life is opened, Revelation 20:11-15, to those whose names are Written in it.

No, the timeframe is the second coming which is when the dead are resurrected and the living are changed to immortal and raptured to join the other immortals. The last trump is the 7th trump, not some phantom trump that is not found in Rev 20/GWTJ.

Your belief that immortality cannot occur unless the book of life is open is not scriptural and has zero support. No immortality is even granted at the GWTJ there because they are all called the dead despite having been physically resurrected. Those who are dead at judgment will not receive eternal life.

 

[Douggg]

The last trump is the 7th trump, not some phantom trump that is not found in Rev 20/GWTJ.

The 7th trump is the last of the seven angels sounding their trumpets for judgements to take place. Not the last trump referral for the rapture/resurrection event referral in 1 Corinthians15:52.

trumpet 1 - a third of the trees burnt up, all the green grass
trumpet 2- a third of sea became blood
trumpet 3 - a third part of the water poisoned
trumpet 4 - a third part of the sun, moon, stars darkened, daylight reduced by one third
trumpet 5 - the first woe, the flesh tormenting locust creatures
trumpet 6 - the second woe, a third of mankind is killed

trumpet 7 - the third woe begins

 

[ewq1938]

The 7th trump is the last of the seven angels sounding their trumpets for judgements to take place. Not the last trump referral for the rapture/resurrection event referral in 1 Corinthians15:52.

It refers to the one and only 7th and last trump which is when Christ returns, resurrecting the saved dead and rapturing the living who survived the trib.

 

[Douggg]

It refers to the one and only 7th and last trump which is when Christ returns, resurrecting the saved dead and rapturing the living who survived the trib.

The seven angel sounding his trumpet begins the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Revelation 8:13.

The third woe is Satan cast down to the earth having great wrath, knowing his time is short....a time/times/half time. So the 7th trump sounds not at Jesus's return - but a time/times/half time before Jesus's return.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 7th trump is the last of the seven angels sounding their trumpets for judgements to take place. Not the last trump referral for the rapture/resurrection event referral in 1 Corinthians15:52.

trumpet 1 - a third of the trees burnt up, all the green grass
trumpet 2- a third of sea became blood
trumpet 3 - a third part of the water poisoned
trumpet 4 - a third part of the sun, moon, stars darkened, daylight reduced by one third
trumpet 5 - the first woe, the flesh tormenting locust creatures
trumpet 6 - the second woe, a third of mankind is killed

trumpet 7 - the third woe begins

In your view the last trumpet is not actually the last trumpet, so I can't take your view seriously. It should be clear that the last trumpet is the last prophetic trumpet and that will be the seventh trumpet.

Our bodies being changed to be immortal will be a reward for us, right? What happens at the seventh trumpet? Several things, but notice one thing in particular...

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

There is no basis whatsoever for denying that the last trumpet and the seventh trumpet are the same.

 

[Douggg]

n your view the last trumpet is not actually the last trumpet, so I can't take your view seriously. It should be clear that the last trumpet is the last prophetic trumpet and that will be the seventh trumpet.

Where in the text of Revelation do you see the word "last" assigned to the 7th angel sounding his trumpet ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where in the text of Revelation do you see the word "last" assigned to the 7th angel sounding his trumpet ?

There are 7 trumpets referenced in the book of Revelation. The 7th one is obviously the last one.

In what sense is the last trumpet actually the last trumpet to sound in your view?

 

[Douggg]

Our bodies being changed to be immortal will be a reward for us, right? What happens at the seventh trumpet? Several things, but notice one thing in particular...

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The rapture/resurrection event will have already taken place. The part in red is talking about the bema seat of Christ when rewards are given out for the things done for the cause of Christ.

The seventh angel sounding begins the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Revelation 8:13. The third woe is Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath, knowing his time is short.... a time/times/half time.

 

[Douggg]

In what sense is the last trumpet actually the last trumpet to sound in your view?

When the Israelite's in the Exodus broke camp and prepared to move, trumpet blasts of differing lengths were sounded to coordinate getting all the tribes into position for the march to the next camp. Then, the signal for the group as a whole to begin marching was a series of rapid trumpet blasts in a row. At the sound of the last blast, i.e the last trump, the camp moved forward.

"at the last trump" in 1Corinthians15:52 is a figure of speech based on the movement of the Israelite's back then.

The actual trumpet sounding will coincide with Jesus descending from His place in heaven, to near the earth, and with a shout, called the voice of the archangel, the dead in Christ will hear Jesus's voice and be resurrected, reunited with their souls, and rise first. Then the living in Christ are translated, redeemed (look up your redemption draws near) and join together will the resurrected dead in Christ, their bodies redeemed from the dust of the earth, in the clouds. And received by Christ in the air beyond the clouds, and taken to heaven, where He has prepared mansions for them who love Him and the Father.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The rapture/resurrection event will have already taken place. The part in red is talking about the bema seat of Christ when rewards are given out for the things done for the cause of Christ.

You just say things while doing NOTHING to back them up. What is the point of that? Are you saying that the bema seat rewards are given at the seventh trumpet or that they are given out before that? The text indicates that they are given out after the seventh trumpet sounds.

The seventh angel sounding begins the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Revelation 8:13. The third woe is Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath, knowing his time is short.... a time/times/half time.

There is nothing connecting the seventh trumpet to Satan being cast down to earth. You're constantly trying to relate unrelated scriptures. You are completely ignoring what it says actually happens at the seventh trumpet, as described in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When the Israelite's in the Exodus broke camp and prepared to move, trumpet blasts of differing lengths were sounded to coordinate getting all the tribes into position for the march to the next camp. Then, the signal for the group as a whole to begin marching was a series of rapid trumpet blasts in a row. At the sound of the last blast, i.e the last trump, the camp moved forward.

"at the last trump" in 1Corinthians15:52 is a figure of speech based on the movement of the Israelite's back then.

That's a lot of speculation on your part. Paul says no such thing. So, are you then saying that you think there will be a series of rapid trumpet blasts at that time right before the last trumpet sounds? If not, then in what sense exactly will the last trumpet be the last trumpet to sound? It's not the last prophetic trumpet to sound in your view, so explain in what way it will actually be the last trumpet.

The actual trumpet sounding will coincide with Jesus descending from His place in heaven, to near the earth, and with a shout, called the voice of the archangel, the dead in Christ will hear Jesus's voice and be resurrected, reunited with their souls, and rise first. Then the living in Christ are translated, redeemed (look up your redemption draws near) and join together will the resurrected dead in Christ, their bodies redeemed from the dust of the earth, in the clouds. And received by Christ in the air beyond the clouds, and taken to heaven, where He has prepared mansions for them who love Him and the Father.

Nowhere does it say we will be taken to heaven at that point. We will be where Jesus is and that will be "in the air". He can bring heaven to us and does not need to bring us to heaven. What is the point of meeting Him in the air if we end up going to heaven? Why not just meet Him in heaven instead? If you can't give reasonable answers to those questions, which I don't think you can, then that reveals a weakness in your doctrine.