Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Spiritual Israelite]

All of your translations say; they lived and reigned........
Which means no different than brought back to life......

No. The Greek word translated as "lived" is "zao" and that is not a word used to describe being brought back to life. It is a word used to describe people being alive and living their lives. The word "anazao" is used to describe the rest of the dead and that word is used to describe people being brought back to life. The Bible wasn't written in English. You should dig deeper to find out what the Greek words mean as well in cases like this.

What none of them say, is they received immortality.

It's not even talking about their bodily resurrection, so of course it doesn't say that. It's talking about them having had part in Christ's resurrection and their souls being in heaven with Him. His resurrection was the first resurrection, according to scripture.

Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

You don't bother using other scripture to help you interpret Revelation 20 and that's why you interpret it incorrectly and why your interpretation contradicts other scripture like 1 Cor 15:22-23 and John 5:28-29.

Something we know cannot happen before the GWT Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.

Why not? It happens just before that when the last trumpet sounds (1 Cor 15:50-56). The last trumpet sounds just before the GWT judgment begins.

Rev 20:4-6 refers only to the martyrs killed during the GT.

No, it doesn't, but you have a false understanding of the beast, so you're just not going to get it. The beast is not just a future entity, as Revelation 17:8 indicates.

They can die a natural death again, but because their names will be found in the Book of Life, immortality is assured for them.

You're not making any sense here. First you say they can die a natural death again and then you basically say that they can't die a natural death again because their names are in the book of life. So, why would they be resurrected with mortal bodies instead of immortal bodies if their names are written in the book of life?

Until people get over their wrong AMill belief, then confuzion and error will preclude any understanding of the truth.

You always says this, but your weak arguments do nothing to refute Amil. You are oblivious to that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The heads are, in fact, KINGS, just as the horns are, in fact, kings.

And kingdoms, which is what the mountains represent.

It's the same symbolic imagery and the same methodology applies. For example:

Revelation 17:9-10

• " And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth.
• And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

The 7 heads (symbolizing authority) "are" also seven mountains (symbolizing kingdoms) and also "are" seven kings (symbolizing rule).

And I see you understand that as well.

So the seven heads (signifying authority and leadership) are all actually 7 kings (signifying rule). It is all interconnected symbolism. Not only is the 7 kings symbolic, but we read the 7 kings are 7 mountains, which is also symbolic. The 7 heads are actually seven periods of the authoritative rule of the beast, which in totality is its complete rule throughout time. That's why 5 were already fallen. So we can't say a head is not a king or a horn is not a king, or a horn is not a head, because it's all symbolical and tied intimately together to paint a bigger picture of a powerful kingdom and its reign.

I do not believe God is talking about earthly empires, nations, kingdoms, or even secret societies somewhere.

Yet, the prophecies do refer to those. The Babylonian empire is obviously referred to in Daniel. As well as the Media-Persian and Greek empires. Why ignore that?

Daniel 8:20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

It's actually amazing and awesome that the Bible prophesied about those world empires before they even came into power, so it makes no sense to act as if it never refers to them.

Satan's interest is absolutely in attacking the congregation of Israel. In Revelation 20 when he is loosed God makes that point even more abundantly clear that Satan is coming after God's New Testament congregaiton of Israel. It is not about Japan attacking the church. It is the EVIL SPIRIT, Satan's "whole persona," and reason for existence, attacking the Church through false prophets and christs. He is the absolute quintessential adversary of the church, not the world which is already his domain. The world is his own, it's already his kingdom that he's not fighting against because a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand, selah! The Word of God encourages us to make our calling and election sure not because Satan has no interest in attacking the church, but because that is his whole character, his entire modus operandi. Satan isn't loosed to attack his own earthly kingdom, but as judgment upon the unfaithful church, just as in the old Testament God loosed wicked empires upon Israel as judgment for their rebellions, which these nations signify! The fact is, the judgment and apostasy comes specifically because Satan is loosed by God upon a rebellious church that will not receive His truth in the love wherewith it was given. Apostasy is a falling away of the church, not a falling away of the world. You need to realize that the world, including your idea of earthly empire, etc. are already fallen under his domain.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-11

• "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
• That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

I understand all that and agree. It seems like you're just looking for an argument here when we're actually mostly in agreement. Take it easy, buddy. We don't have to agree on every detail.

This obviously takes place in the unfaithful congregation. And our enemies aren't physical countries or empires, but the armies of false Christs and false prophets that come to deceive are attacking the church, and who do they deceive there? Under rule of the Apollyon, the great spiritual destroyer Satan, they bring the rebellious church to desolation by deceiving those men within it that do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. This is why we, Elect, has to be secured FIRST before Satan can be loosened to gather army against our churches:

Revelation 7:2-3

• "And I saw another messenger ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four messengers, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
• Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That's the whole reason Satan was bound in the bottomless pit, so that He could not go forth deceiving the nations (spiritually gentiles the unsaved/heathen) until after the 144,000 of Israel were all sealed (secured) with the Spirit of promise. But once the church has done its job, their testimony finished, then he is loosed as locusts upon the grass. The point being NOT until God has sealed/saved everyone that He intends to save. So you see that God is NOT talking about Satan coming out of bottomless pit to gather together France, Japan, and others to wage war on God's church. Not happening! He is talking about people who have not yet seal of God INSIDE the church.. Satan is deceiving them and make them an army to attack the remaining faithful Saints in the church all over the world.

Satan are coming after those who have not made their calling and election sure (2nd Peter 1:10). God brings this spiritual judgment of delusion upon His Temple because these are those who would not receive the love of truth (2nd Thessalonians 2:12), instead getting their pleasure from unrighteousness. The destroyer comes up against the camp of the saints, not his own camp and his own people and his own kingdom. See? does this sounds like Satan marshalling the physical countries based on the boundaries of ancient Rome, Persia and Babylon to fit your doctrine if you insist on beast being about physical empires?

Satan definitely uses the world to attack the church. How can you say otherwise? It has been going on for a long time. Laws are created that go against everything we believe in. They try to keep Christians in many countries from assembling together. Satan uses any means he can to attack the church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first resurrection relative to the millennium will be for the great tribulation martyrs. They will not have to appear before the GWT judgment.


No, there will be Christians who will appear before the GTW judgment, that the second death will have no power over them.

I thought you agreed with me that Revelation 20:6 indicates that one must have part in the first resurrection in order to avoid the second death. I guess not.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, I did not say that beasts in prophecy can only refer to a king.

A beast in prophecy can refer to:
1. a kingdom
2. a king
3. or both
4. or neither a king, nor a kingdom - such as the false prophet.

A beast is the body of Satan which is his spiritual kingdom -- all of them who have not yet seal of God.

The second beast coming out of the earth in Revelation 13 who does miracles in the presence of the beast-king is identified in Revelation 19:20 as the false prophet. The false prophet will be a religious figure. He will be neither a king, nor a kingdom.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The second beast is the body of COUNTERFIET CHRISTIANS who have pretended to have power of God (horns like a lamb) that deceive those people within the congregation to receive the mark of the beast. It is the kingdom of Satan coming into the kingdom of God as part of God's judgment of the unfaithful congregation. They are false prophets and christs of the congregation of Israel, the Church, which I believe is taking place right now.

Both the unsaved world (beast) and the unsaved professed Christians (beast with two horns like a lamb) will be thrown into the lake of Fire on the last day, when Christ returns. It will be ALL of the unsaved people in the history of the world will be thrown into the lake of fire. Not merely two individuals as you thought!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I did not say that beasts in prophecy can only refer to a king.

You misunderstood me.

A beast in prophecy can refer to:
1. a kingdom
2. a king
3. or both
4. or neither a king, nor a kingdom - such as the false prophet.

This is what I meant. I wasn't saying you said a beast is always and only ever referred to as a king. I'm saying you said that a beast can sometimes only refer to a king (or a kingdom or both) and I'm disagreeing with that and saying that a prophet beast always refers to a kingdom and its king and never only to a king.

 

[Douggg]

This is what I meant. I wasn't saying you said a beast is always and only ever referred to as a king. I'm saying you said that a beast can sometimes only refer to a king (or a kingdom or both) and I'm disagreeing with that and saying that a prophet beast always refers to a kingdom and its king and never only to a king.

The false prophet, the second beast in Revelation 13, is neither a king, nor a kingdom - but a religious figure. He will call fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) like Elijah the prophet did in his battle with prophets of baal.

 

[Douggg]

I thought you agreed with me that Revelation 20:6 indicates that one must have part in the first resurrection in order to avoid the second death. I guess not.

I added a statement at the bottom of my post #317. See if you agree to it ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

And kingdoms, which is what the mountains represent.

Here is my advice for you: Don't get caught up in physical nations like so many other Christians do. The Bible is about the GOSPEL, not about nations or empire specifically. God is talking about the spiritual kingdom here! I will explain below.

Yet, the prophecies do refer to those. The Babylonian empire is obviously referred to in Daniel. As well as the Media-Persian and Greek empires. Why ignore that?

The problem with you is that you believe God gave us some geography lesson in the Old Testament here that we should believe that we will be dealing with literal empires today? I do not think so.

Daniel 8:20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

Do you really understand what God is talking about the Ram in Daniel 8? Is it a lesson of physical empires? No. The ram represents the congregation of Israel with two horns representing the power of the Old Testament Israel and New Testament Israel, the Church? Do you know why one of the horns will be higher and come out last?

Dan 8:3
(3) Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

It is the two horns or powers of the Kingdom of Christ, symbolized by the Ram. Isn't that symbolic of the power of the Old Testament Israel kingdom and the New Testament Israel kingdom, the Church? They are the two congregations representing the kingdom of the Ram, Selah that the Media and Persia merely type of!! Listen, the greater power that came up last represents the New Testament church kingdom went into all the ends of the earth with the power of the Holy Spirit and brought many people into God's Kingdom. So that it wasn't just Israel, as was the power of the other horn! That's the greater power of the Ram kingdom. The latter is greater which is because the New Testament Congregation came after the fall of Old Testament Congregation at the Cross. God has warned Israel this would happen:

Deu 9:13-14
(13) Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
(14) Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

God talked about the New Testament Congregation! Observe what Christ said about His believers in the New Testament:

Joh 14:12
(12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

While blindness has happened to Old Testament Israel, New Testament Israel which is NOW a spiritual kingdom, has grown and brought in countless souls to the throne of Grace by the power of the Kingdom. This is why this spiritual house as the higher horn came up last which will be greater - after the Cross.

Hag 2:9
(9) The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

This is the greater power, the greater holy nation, the greater horn that comes up last. And THIS holy nation brings forth fruits. You follow what I'm saying? Abraham's seed is no longer just Israel, but great multitudes from all nations as the sand of the sea THORUGH THE CHURCH!
At least until the later days, when the little horn arises! Do you know what this little horn refers to?

I understand all that and agree. It seems like you're just looking for an argument here when we're actually mostly in agreement. Take it easy, buddy. We don't have to agree on every detail.

Our goal is to find Truth in all things according to Scripture.

Satan definitely uses the world to attack the church. How can you say otherwise? It has been going on for a long time. Laws are created that go against everything we believe in. They try to keep Christians in many countries from assembling together. Satan uses any means he can to attack the church.

You have to understand that God has restrained Satan from attacking the Church since the Cross so Christ built his church with all Elect be coming in through the testimony of Two Witnesses. That does not mean the faithfuls of the church experience free of tribulations and trails since the Cross. Satan was still working through unsaved men to frustrate God's Church but he did not have the power to deceive people God intent to seal during that time.

Dan 8:21-24
(21) And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
(22) Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
(23) And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
(24) And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

The goat's first king is Satan himself. The great horn (power) of Satan was broken at the Cross. The four kingdom stood up. The number four in Scripture means universal. It means that Satan's kingdom has gone to the ends of the world, chasing after the remnants of New Testament congregation, Revelation 12:17.

Now the latter time of the their kingdom is the period AFTER Two Witnesses has finished their testimony and have accomplished her goal to bring all Elect in the kingdom (only God knows). The transgressors are come to the full. It means those IN THE CHURCH have fall into apostasy where the false propehts and christs has caused many to forsake God and His Laws. They are the transgressors. This is when Satan comes out of bottomless pit with mighty power given to him FROM GOD to be used by Him to judge His unfaithful church. With this power, Satan will be successfully to silence and destroy the testimony of the faithful. This is when Church going to fall into desolation. Just like Old Israel did.

So you see, we should not expect by God to deal with certain physical nations or empires here today. We are dealing with our true enemies, the false prophets and christs (and all people deceived by them and received the mark of the beast), SPIRITUAL TYPE of Babylon, Persia, etc. IN THE CHURCH all over the world as a sign of Christ's soon coming.

 

[Keraz]

your weak arguments do nothing to refute Amil. You are oblivious to that.

Common sense refutes AMill.
I have posted the proof of Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind. I used 47 Bible verses and showed how we are now within 20 years at the most, to 6000 years from Adam.
You AMill pushers just blithely ignore and dismiss anything that you don't like and can't refute. Bad you from me and sad you from God.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Common sense refutes AMill.

Common sense is not the arbiter of Truth. The Word of God is.

I have posted the proof of Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind. I used 47 Bible verses and showed how we are now within 20 years at the most, to 6000 years from Adam.

The so-called 7,000 years theory, also considered as "The Millennial day theory, the Millennium sabbath hypothesis, or the Sabbath millennium theory." is NOT found in the Scripture. It is purely a man-made "theory" of Christian eschatology in which the Second Coming of Christ will occur 6,000 years after the creation of mankind, followed by 1,000 years of peace and harmony.

You AMill pushers just blithely ignore and dismiss anything that you don't like and can't refute. Bad you from me and sad you from God.

Some amillennialists dismiss this because it does NOT exist. Mankind was not here for 6,000 years.

 

[Keraz]

The so-called 7,000 years theory, also considered as "The Millennial day theory, the Millennium sabbath hypothesis, or the Sabbath millennium theory." is NOT found in the Scripture.

But it is and I have proved it by the accurate addition of the 2000 years Adam to Abraham, another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus amd now nearly 2000 years Jesus to His Return. After that, the final 1000 years of the reign of King Jesus.
This is concrete fact, the foolish AMil theory is refuted and totally rubbished.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you agree with this statement....?

The second death has no power over any Christian.

Yes.

It you agree to that statement, then our difference boils down to which Christians will appear before the GWT judgment. Which I am saying the two Christian groups above will not. They will have already received their eternal life, incorruptible bodies during the rapture/resurrection event, and during the resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs event.

Why would God reward Christians at 3 different times instead of all at once? I do not believe that makes any sense. And, it contradicts the parable of the wheat and tares where Jesus said to let both grow together (wheat/Christians and tares/non-Christians) until the harvest, which is the end of the age (read Matt 13:24-30;36-43). That shows there will be only one time when all people are judged. Just as Matthew 25:31-46 indicates as well. And, it will happen when Jesus returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But it is and I have proved it by the accurate addition of the 2000 years Adam to Abraham, another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus amd now nearly 2000 years Jesus to His Return. After that, the final 1000 years of the reign of King Jesus.
This is concrete fact, the foolish AMil theory is refuted and totally rubbished.

You're quite delusional. You are calling theories facts. I guess you have no interest in being taken seriously.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is my advice for you: Don't get caught up in physical nations like so many other Christians do. The Bible is about the GOSPEL, not about nations or empire specifically. God is talking about the spiritual kingdom here! I will explain below.

No offense, but I don't need advice from you. We agree on a number of things as amils, but I disagree with how you seem to spiritualize almost everything. The Bible does prophesy about things that would occur in actual physical nations and other places on earth. The accuracy of those prophecies is something to be celebrated because it shows how God knows the future and is not something to be ignored.

The problem with you is that you believe God gave us some geography lesson in the Old Testament here that we should believe that we will be dealing with literal empires today? I do not think so.

It's not a problem to see fulfilled Bible prophecy. It's a problem for you to not acknowledge it.

Do you really understand what God is talking about the Ram in Daniel 8? Is it a lesson of physical empires? No.

It specifically tells us it's related to the Media-Persian empire, so why ignore that? It doesn't do you any good to spiritualize everything you read.

Our goal is to find Truth in all things according to Scripture.

Yes, and we have to discern what type of text any given verse or passage is using instead of spiritualizing everything as you seem to do.

You have to understand that God has restrained Satan from attacking the Church since the Cross so Christ built his church with all Elect be coming in through the testimony of Two Witnesses. That does not mean the faithfuls of the church experience free of tribulations and trails since the Cross. Satan was still working through unsaved men to frustrate God's Church but he did not have the power to deceive people God intent to seal during that time.

Why do you say I need to understand this when I already understand it. You must not even know what I believe for some reason. I can't imagine that you don't already know that I'm an amil?

So you see, we should not expect by God to deal with certain physical nations or empires here today.

No, the Babylonian, Media-Persian and Greek empires are ancient history. Another thing you need to stop doing is forcing everything into the future.

We are dealing with our true enemies, the false prophets and christs (and all people deceived by them and received the mark of the beast), SPIRITUAL TYPE of Babylon, Persia, etc. IN THE CHURCH all over the world as a sign of Christ's soon coming.

Yes, today that is the case. Of course. I didn't say otherwise. Stop making assumptions about what I believe.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No offense, but I don't need advice from you. We agree on a number of things as amils, but I disagree with how you seem to spiritualize almost everything. The Bible does prophesy about things that would occur in actual physical nations and other places on earth. The accuracy of those prophecies is something to be celebrated because it shows how God knows the future and is not something to be ignored.

No, the Babylonian, Media-Persian and Greek empires are ancient history. Another thing you need to stop doing is forcing everything into the future.

You don't get it. It was not me who forced everything into the future but God, "IF" you understand what He talks about:

In theological terms, this is called a "type." Which means it is a historical event that prefigures something spiritual to happen later. And it nearly always references something pertaining to Christ. Not a like historical event! We often see in the New Testament that the scriptures reveal to us that the true prophetic significance of these physical or historical events, persons, places, is spiritual. This is called the "antitype." For example, Christ, in leading all believers (the Spiritual Israel) out of the bondage of spiritual Egypt that we might come into the true Promised land, is the "antitype" of that historical event of Moses and Egypt. Or the fall of the great city Babylon in the Old Testament was the "type" of the spiritual fall of Babylon in the New Testament, Selah!

Now King Cyrus was the "type" of Christ - God's true anointed shepherd and his empire, Media and Persia a type of congregation of Israel where Christ comes from. The Babylonian king Belshazzar, a type of Satan. And his empire the kingdom of Satan. His lords are Satan's messengers of light (false prophets and christs and all people of the congregation deceived because they did not have the seal of God) threw parties by drinking wine from the vessels of God's temple (Revelation 11:9-10). And the river Euphrates, a type of Gospel and Protection, which once protected Babylon before she went apostasy. Drying up is a type of removing the border protection for church. It is the same thing we read about the drying up of river Euphrates in Revelation 16:12-13 so the frogs, a type of, false prophets and christs can come in and for the kings of the East (Elect) to be prepared to come OUT to avoid the judgment of Babylon. And of course, King Cyrus (Christ) came in and put the end to Satan's kingdom, etc. etc. The point is those are spiritual pictures for the New Testament congregation in the end when she has become what spiritually is called Egypt, Sodom, Babylon, etc. Not about physical nations or empire in the Middle East in the Book of Revealtion as most people thought.

Spiritual much? Well according to God. :-)

 

[Douggg]

Why would God reward Christians at 3 different times instead of all at once? I do not believe that makes any sense. And, it contradicts the parable of the wheat and tares where Jesus said to let both grow together (wheat/Christians and tares/non-Christians) until the harvest, which is the end of the age (read Matt 13:24-30;36-43). That shows there will be only one time when all people are judged. Just as Matthew 25:31-46 indicates as well. And, it will happen when Jesus returns.

Revelation 20:4-6 is the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints. They reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

After the 1000 years is a general resurrection for the GWT judgment. The 1000 years thus cannot be figurative as the past 2000 years as Amil believes, because there are two resurrections in Revelation 20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't get it.

If that's what you think, then it's pointless to continue the discussion. I think you don't get it when it comes to this topic and you go overboard with spiritualizing everything. You're kind of the opposite of the dispensationalists who take everything literally. There's no balance there. Whatever. Moving on...

 

[TribulationSigns]

If that's what you think, then it's pointless to continue the discussion. I think you don't get it when it comes to this topic and you go overboard with spiritualizing everything. You're kind of the opposite of the dispensationalists who take everything literally. There's no balance there. Whatever. Moving on...

 

[Keraz]

You're quite delusional. You are calling theories facts. I guess you have no interest in being taken seriously.

I wonder if those who have wrong beliefs, actually proved wrong, but who still deny the truths presented, even calling those who prove them wrong; delusional, will they be contrite and apologetic for their errors?

They will be seen to have built their faith on sand, and when the storms come, they will be terrified and will not know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 20:4-6 is the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints. They reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

After the 1000 years is a general resurrection for the GWT judgment. The 1000 years thus cannot be figurative as the past 2000 years as Amil believes, because there are two resurrections in Revelation 20.

But the second one is not a mix of saved and unsaved. The second one is only for the unsaved and one clue is they are called the dead despite their resurrection having taken place. This is because they are still dead spiritually after the physical resurrection. They are physically resurrected in order to be able to die a second time ie: the second death which has no resurrection.