Peter the Rock?

[Truthnightmare]

What does this have to do with Peter?

You claim Peter is a Catholic, then you profess to being a Catholic, a now you yourself have positioned yourself as one who is in allegiance with the true true church…

What a load of crap!!!

Matt 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. KJV

Peter: Greek word #4074 Petros (pet'-ros); apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than NT:3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: KJV - Peter, rock. Compare NT:2786.

rock: Greek word #4073 petra (pet'-ra); feminine of the same as NT:4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): KJV - rock.

(The definite article): Greek word #3588 ho (ho); including the feminine he (hay); and the neuter to (to); in all their inflections; the def. article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): KJV - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc..

Below is a copy of the original Greek words of the key part of the verse. Notice the definite article (tee-Grk. word #3588) preceding "rock":

You were told Jesus is the Rock and the position of this rock is not shared.

Cor 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock [petra] that followed them: and that Rock [petra] was Christ. KJV

You were told to not have any divisions, so in honesty you can’t even follow the simplest of Gods instructions.

1 Corinthians 10
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you;

You disobey God to elevate your silly notions all along it is to boast yourself.

 

[Truthnightmare]

What does this have to do with Peter?

What does this have to do with Peter?

Your silly Catholic tales are a joke to me and I don’t take your claim of the church being built on Peter any more serious than your other ridiculous claims.

The Catholic Pope says through it's Catechism (teaching):

CC (Catechism) 968: "Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. 'In a wholly singular way she cooperatedby her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." [LG 61.] *emphasis added

CC 969: "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heavenshe did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." [LG 62.] *emphasis added
CC 973: "By pronouncing her 'fiat' at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body." *emphasis added

In the Catholic Catechism, Mary is placed on par with Jesus Christ:

CC 964: "Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. 'This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death'; [LG 57.] it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion: Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: 'Woman, behold your son.'[LG 58; cf. Jn 19:26-27 .]" *emphasis added

CC 2677: "Holy Mary, Mother of God": With Elizabeth we marvel, 'And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?' [Lk 1:43] Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: 'Let it be to me according to your word.' [Lk 1:38] By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: 'Thy will be done'. "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death": By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the 'Mother of Mercy,' the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing [Jn 19:27] to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise." *emphasis added
CC 2674: "Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son 'who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties.' [LG 62.] Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she 'shows the way' (hodigitria), and is herself 'the Sign' of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West." *emphasis added

The Catholic dogma even claims that the Commandment prohibiting the use of the lord's name in vain is extended to the name of Mary:

CC 2146: "The second commandment forbids the abuse of God's name, i.e., every improper use of the names of God, Jesus Christ, but also of the Virgin Mary and all the saints." *emphasis added

CC 2162: "The second commandment forbids every improper use of God's name. Blasphemy is the use of the name of God, of Jesus Christ, of the Virgin Mary, and of the saints in an offensive way."*emphasis added

 

[Truthnightmare]

The SECOND Commandment according to the Catholic Church; from the CC:

CC 2162. "The SECOND COMMANDMENT forbids every improper use of God's name. Blasphemy is the use of the name of God, of Jesus Christ, of the Virgin Mary, and of the saints in an offensive way. "

The THIRD Commandment from the Bible:

Exod 20:7
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (KJV)

To still have a total of Ten Commandments, the Catholic Church divides the Tenth Commandment into two separate Commandments (illustrated below).

The Ninth and Tenth Commandment according to the Catholic Church; from the CC:

CC 2514. "St. John distinguishes three kinds of covetousness or concupiscence: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life.[Cf. 1Jn 2:16 .] In the Catholic catechetical tradition, theNINTH COMMANDMENT forbids carnal concupiscence; theTENTH forbids coveting another's goods."

The TRUE Ninth Commandment from the Bible:

Exod 20:16
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (KJV)

The TRUE Tenth Commandment from the Bible:

Exod 20:17
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (KJV)

This religion is false, they can’t drink milk correctly yet want to tell others how to eat meat.

 

[RedFan]

Your silly Catholic tales are a joke to me and I don’t take your claim of the church being built on Peter any more serious than your other ridiculous claims.

The Catholic Pope says through it's Catechism (teaching):



In the Catholic Catechism, Mary is placed on par with Jesus Christ:



The Catholic dogma even claims that the Commandment prohibiting the use of the lord's name in vain is extended to the name of Mary:

How did we shift the OP topic from Peter to Mary? This Mary stuff deserves its own post.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You claim Peter is a Catholic, then you profess to being a Catholic, a now you yourself have positioned yourself as one who is in allegiance with the true true church…

What a load of crap!!!

A truly idiotic response to overwhelming evidence . . .

Below is a copy of the original Greek words of the key part of the verse. Notice the definite article (tee-Grk. word #3588) preceding "rock":

Jesus wasn't speaking Greek, Einstein.
He spoke Aramaic.

You were told Jesus is the Rock and the position of this rock is not shared.

Cor 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock [petra] that followed them: and that Rock [petra] was Christ. KJV

You were told to not have any divisions, so in honesty you can’t even follow the simplest of Gods instructions.

1 Corinthians 10
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you;

You disobey God to elevate your silly notions all along it is to boast yourself.

Sooooo, what do you do with Isaiah 50:1-2, where Abraham is also called the "Rock"??

As for not having any divisions - ummmm, what do you call tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant factions that ALL teach different doctrines?

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

What hypocrisy . . .

 

[Taken]

No, I am wiped out. getting an ultrsound on 30th, may be a torn rocator cups.

Sorry to hear, Hopefully it’s not a torn cup and something minor that can be treated.

God Bess you,
Taken

 

[Truthnightmare]

How did we shift the OP topic from Peter to Mary? This Mary stuff deserves its own post.

Nothing has moved, bringing up short documentation of the inconsistencies of a doctrine, merely shows one should even more careful of the words of said doctrine.

Moreover, the church is a body of believers..

Believers… the belief of Christ (faith) can’t be seen, it is spiritual. Have you not read?

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The body of believers (church) is spiritual, you can’t build a spiritual church off a flesh man.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

That’s why the scripture says…

1 Cor 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock [petra] that followed them: and that Rock [petra] was Christ. KJV

Rock: Greek word #4073 petra (pet'-ra); feminine of the same as NT:4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): KJV - rock.

And I have archeological evidence of churches in Glastonbury within a time of Joseph of Ariamathias travels, perhaps with a teenage Christ…..Long before Peter is mentioned?

Let’s cut the nonsense!!! This isn’t about Peter being a rock. It’s about Catholics saying Peter is a Catholic (lie) So they can say the church was built off Peter (lie) and then say Catholic is the true church religion of Peter and the apostles (lie)

They can’t tell the truth that the church was built on Christ, because that would mean the true church is spiritual and Catholicism isn’t the true religion.

Ever seen the black Hebrew Israelites (I’m black)
the only reason they claim this is for self gratification and a puffed up ego.

 

[Taken]

Because post #555 has you stumped, you resort to childish insults.

Already addressed the Scripture.
Already addressed your false accusations and gaslighting.
No interest in your off-topic, non-biblical Catholic doctrine.
Stop hounding and accusing people not interested in your shenanigans.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

 

[Illuminator]

Why is this important, if -- as I think we can safely assume -- Jesus addressed Peter in Aramaic? Shouldn't we first be looking at whether Aramaic recognizes the same distinction you show in the Greek? Because if it doesn't, the author of Matthew has made an interpretive leap in quoting Jesus!

Matthew was a translator, not an interpreter. The Aramaic argument is a strong one because it doesn't have the same constructive pronouns as does Greek. "Rock" is a person, not an airy principle, and Peter's new name stuck throughout the rest of the NT. History shows a living legacy, a pedigree if you will, that would have been impossible to accomplish based on mere human effort.

There are multiple indications in Scripture revealing Peter as spokesman for all the Apostles, and once that is established, then it is easy to show Peter as leader of the Universal Church.

THE PRIMACY OF PETER - Scripture Catholic

Contents1 Scripture1.1 The Primacy of Peter in Scripture2 Tradition / Church Fathers2.1 I. Peter Built the Church in Rome2.2 II. Primacy of Peter’s Apostolic See2.3 III. Peter’s Successors Claim Authority over the Church Scripture The Primacy of Peter in Scripture Matt. to Rev. – Peter is...

www.scripturecatholic.com

We can quibble all day what Jesus meant by "upon this Rock", what happened after that cannot be denied, but it is anyway.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Matthew was a translator, not an interpreter. The Aramaic argument is a strong one because it doesn't have the same constructive pronouns as does Greek. "Rock" is a person, not an airy principle, and Peter's new name stuck throughout the rest of the NT. History shows a living legacy, a pedigree if you will, that would have been impossible to accomplish based on mere human effort.

There are multiple indications in Scripture revealing Peter as spokesman for all the Apostles, and once that is established, then it is easy to show Peter as leader of the Universal Church.

THE PRIMACY OF PETER - Scripture Catholic

Contents1 Scripture1.1 The Primacy of Peter in Scripture2 Tradition / Church Fathers2.1 I. Peter Built the Church in Rome2.2 II. Primacy of Peter’s Apostolic See2.3 III. Peter’s Successors Claim Authority over the Church Scripture The Primacy of Peter in Scripture Matt. to Rev. – Peter is...

www.scripturecatholic.com

Well according to the Bible, Paul corrected Peter so I guess the church was built on Paul… surely you have read Galatians 2

11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

 

[Taken]

Well according to the Bible, Paul corrected Peter so I guess the church was built on Paul… surely you have read Galatians 2

11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

One historical changing of Scriptural meaning, then another, then another, then another over centuries has positioned generation after generations of offsprings groomed and indoctrinated in Catholicism, to whit for many, it is a way of their truth, and they will not yield from their embellished doctrine to simply accepting Christ Jesus’ doctrine as it stands.
Not all, but some Catholics take the gaslighter approach, if you disagree with their Catholic Doctrine. :-(

 

[RedFan]

Matthew was a translator, not an interpreter. The Aramaic argument is a strong one because it doesn't have the same constructive pronouns as does Greek.

I wonder if the author of Matthew's gospel overheard Jesus, or had some written Aramaic account of what Jesus said to Peter and then put it into Greek. If the author of Matthew was one of the original Twelve apostles I would tend toward the former. That, of course, is hotly debated in academic circles.

 

[The Learner]

Why is this important, if -- as I think we can safely assume -- Jesus addressed Peter in Aramaic? Shouldn't we first be looking at whether Aramaic recognizes the same distinction you show in the Greek? Because if it doesn't, the author of Matthew has made an interpretive leap in quoting Jesus!

Fitzmyer in a peer review journal BAR as part of the Queries & Comments," Biblical Archaeology Review 19.3 [1993], 70 refutes the kepha kepha reading based on the fact that it does not account for the Greek play on words.

 

[The Learner]

Why is this important, if -- as I think we can safely assume -- Jesus addressed Peter in Aramaic? Shouldn't we first be looking at whether Aramaic recognizes the same distinction you show in the Greek? Because if it doesn't, the author of Matthew has made an interpretive leap in quoting Jesus!

Biblical Archeology Review. -- Queries & Comments," Biblical Archaeology Review 19.3 [1993], 70 fitzmyer refutes the kepha kepha reading based on the fact that it does not account for the greek play on words.
For those unaware,
Fitzmyer, purposed the aramaic kepha kepha reading in a few books,
Joseph A. Fitzmyer, "Aramaic Kepha' and Peter's name in the New Testament," Text and Interpretation: Studies in the New Testament presented to Matthew Black, ed. Ernest Best and R. McL. Wilson
To Advance the Gospel: New Testament Studies (The Biblical Resource Series) by Joseph A. Fitzmyer

The pinnacle of the gospel story may be Jesus' dramatic statement, "You are Petros and on this petra I will build my church." The saying seems to contain an obvious Greek wordplay, indicating that Jesus spoke in Greek. However, it is possible that "Petros...petra" is a Hebrew wordplay.

http://new.studylight.org/ls/ds/print.cgi?a=471

 

[The Learner]

1. The Exegetical Examination of Matthew 16:18 | Bible.org

This chapter will focus solely upon the exegesis of the verse.37 Of course, the primary exegetical problem of the verse is the identity of the πέτρα. Is Jesus referring to himself as the rock, or is he referring to Peter? Could the rock be Peter’s confession of faith? And what are the...

bible.org

Matthew 16:18: The Petros-petra Wordplay—Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew? | JerusalemPerspective.com Online

www.jerusalemperspective.com

I like to keep it simple just go to Eph 2:20 which plainly says that the foundation of the church is the prophets and apostles with Jesus as the cornerstone.

Ephesians 2:20King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Fitzmyer, purposed the aramaic kepha kepha reading in a few books,

Joseph A. Fitzmyer, "Aramaic Kepha' and Peter's name in the New Testament," Text and Interpretation: Studies in the New Testament presented to Matthew Black, ed. Ernest Best and R. McL. Wilson

To Advance the Gospel: New Testament Studies (The Biblical Resource Series) by Joseph A. Fitzmyer

But later in Queries & Comments," Biblical Archaeology Review 19.3 [1993], 70 fitzmyer refutes the kepha kepha reading based on the fact that it does not account for the greek play on words

The Shepherd of Hermas (Book III, Similitude 9) CHAPTER XII makes the rock that the church is built on Jesus as the Son of God, The Shepherd of Hermas (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

 

[The Learner]

Why don't any of the church fathers know that the pope is infallible?

Until I was converted to Jesus, I actually always thought that Mary is the fouth divine being since in my environment we focused many times on rosary and devoted ourselves to Mary (and forgot Jesus was the real actor behind). The next excuse would be: everything which comes from Mary comes from...

www.christianforums.com

 

[The Learner]

Final Authority-Catholics can not prove that Jesus said Kepha-Kepha in Matthew 16:18

Protestants try to disprove Kepha in Matthew 16:18 http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=51608 [hr] Almost 100 years ago, the Jewish Semitic sch

www.tapatalk.com

 

[Truthnightmare]

One historical changing of Scriptural meaning, then another, then another, then another over centuries has positioned generation after generations of offsprings groomed and indoctrinated in Catholicism, to whit for many, it is a way of their truth, and they will not yield from their embellished doctrine to simply accepting Christ Jesus’ doctrine as it stands.
Not all, but some Catholics take the gaslighter approach, if you disagree with their Catholic Doctrine. :-(

In a literal sense a building is constructed by laying a foundation, that foundation begins with a cornerstone. Everything that takes place there after must be in alignment with that cornerstone.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

 

[ScottA]

Biblical Archeology Review. -- Queries & Comments," Biblical Archaeology Review 19.3 [1993], 70 fitzmyer refutes the kepha kepha reading based on the fact that it does not account for the greek play on words.
For those unaware,
Fitzmyer, purposed the aramaic kepha kepha reading in a few books,
Joseph A. Fitzmyer, "Aramaic Kepha' and Peter's name in the New Testament," Text and Interpretation: Studies in the New Testament presented to Matthew Black, ed. Ernest Best and R. McL. Wilson
To Advance the Gospel: New Testament Studies (The Biblical Resource Series) by Joseph A. Fitzmyer

The pinnacle of the gospel story may be Jesus' dramatic statement, "You are Petros and on this petra I will build my church." The saying seems to contain an obvious Greek wordplay, indicating that Jesus spoke in Greek. However, it is possible that "Petros...petra" is a Hebrew wordplay.

http://new.studylight.org/ls/ds/print.cgi?a=471

That is interesting and certainly something to consider. However (not to oppose), even without such a distinction, the frame of Jesus' narrative with Peter shows a greater matter of what and how Jesus would and would not build His church--not referring to Peter or addressing his authority, but rather stating what would and would not be, referring rather to "flesh and blood" vs. what would come from the "Father."

In that greater framework, Peter becomes a joint benefactor of shared authority equal among the church without regard to office or respect of persons, while the main emphasis and the actual subject of the narrative is not Peter at all, but the spirit of God.