Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[PinSeeker]

…in the broader sense- 'the flesh' in scripture, is equated to "sin"…

Hmm well, of the flesh, meaning of man, which equates to having a sinful nature and therefore the natural proclivity toward sin and away from holiness. Right?

But then again, not always, in Scripture; it does refer to the physical body… sometimes (i.e., John 1:14).

In the scriptural context, the human condition is flesh and flesh is sinful by nature, thus the very essence of being human, denotes that humans are naturally-- sinful. All of them.

Sure. But I think ~ and me thinking this is not of great importance ~ that in saying, “the human condition is flesh and flesh is sinful by nature,” it seems you’re sort of crossing the two senses of ‘flesh.’ Not that you mean to do that, it just seems that’s what’s happening in that little statement of yours.

Getting this point across is very much like pushing a rope uphill. Not impossible, but certainly slow-going.

Agree, but it really seems it should not be so. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Mr E]

Hmm well, of the flesh, meaning of man, which equates to having a sinful nature and therefore the natural proclivity toward sin and away from holiness. Right?

But then again, not always, in Scripture; it does refer to the physical body… sometimes (i.e., John 1:14).

Sure. But I think ~ and me thinking this is not of great importance ~ that in saying, “the human condition is flesh and flesh is sinful by nature,” it seems you’re sort of crossing the two senses of ‘flesh.’ Not that you mean to do that, it just seems that’s what’s happening in that little statement of yours.


Agree, but it really seems it should not be so. :)

Grace and peace to you.

Precisely as in John 1:14. The flesh (physical, human, sinful man) is contrast with the spirit (divine, holy, righteous, God).

Romans says so clearly--

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Are you aware of scriptural examples where the flesh is depicted as particularly good?

 

[Marty fox]

There is nothing... controversial about that Revelation 20:4 verse. The controversy is a fabrication by liars against the simple Word of God. Marty has simply been deceived by charlatans.

What Marty fox is espousing is false doctrines of men that pull a single verse out of the BIBLICAL CONTEXT of the chapter, and wrongly apply it according to their false designs. This is easy for the serious Bible student to grasp, simply because those pushing the controversy show they don't understand the New Testament Scriptures.


All of the following verses are relevant to the subject of those saints of the FIRST RESURRECTION that will reign with Jesus Christ at His future coming...

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

That 'resurrection' does not happen until the LAST DAY of this world, on the day which Jesus returns in the future! (John 5:28-29; John 6:40). Apostle Paul rebuked Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2 Timothy 2:17-18 for teaching that the resurrection was past already. To believe the false doctrine Marty fox said, one would have to believe the resurrection happened already in the days of Apostle Paul!

In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul also revealed the future timing of Christ's future reign over the nations, so Paul definitely did NOT apply that to his days, but of a time future to his day...

1 Cor 15:20-26
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

That end is pointing to after God's GWT Judgment at the end of Rev.20, after... Christ's "thousand years" reign and Satan is loosed one final time to lead the unsaved of the nations up against the "camp of the saints" on earth.

Hasn't anyone figured out that "camp of the saints" of Rev.20:8-9 is still today NOT YET established on earth like it says? for it means Jerusalem inhabited by Christ and His elect that reign with Him.

25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
KJV

What idiot wants us to think that Lord Jesus Christ is already reigning in His Kingdom with all the evil still going on in this present world? Those who think that reign has come already are deceived, and do not understand the times written in God's Word.

To believe those nuts that Marty is believing, one would have to discard even Christ's warning about the coming Antichrist at the end of this present world! And to say there is no Antichrist coming in our near future, or that Antichrist came already, that is to say that Jesus' future 2nd coming has already happened too! What kind of person would think such a crazy idea that is totally... away from the written Word of God in The New Testament? I assure you, those behind that stupidity do not study The New Testament that much, or their spiritual eyes are blinded to the New Testament Books. So who most likely would that be? (see Romans 11 about those Paul said God blinded).

The last enemy, death being destroyed, does not happen until after Christ's future "thousand years" reign and God's GWT Judgment of Rev.20. When Jesus returns to begin His thousand years reign, all wickedness will be subdued, and even those nations that refuse to come up to Jerusalem to worship the KING from year to year, and keep the feast of tabernacles, there won't be any rain upon their lands. So like Scripture says, Jesus and His elect will reign in that future time with a "rod of iron", meaning He will be very strict upon those who want to do falseness like in this present world. So to suggest that Jesus is already reigning over today's nations with that "rod of iron" is a huge joke by the devil, and the devil must really be laughing at the gullible who believe that lie.

All you do here is prove that you don't even understand what I'm saying I've tried to explain it to you before but you won't listen

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This proves a resurrection takes place BEFORE the thousand years starts, because the rest of the dead did not live again/come back to life when the others did. Clearly all of Rev 20 is still future because the resurrection has not occurred nor has anyone been killed for refusing the mark or worship of the image because those only can happen during the 42 month trib.

All false doctrines try to make people believe the AC isn't coming, or had already come, and same with the tribulation. This makes the coming of the false christ so easy, and makes the Apostasy able to happen and be so successful. The church is not prepared, ready or educated correctly in prophecy.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes I believe in two separate millenniums one the binding and one the reigning.

I’ve heard a lot of different things in my day, but that’s the first I’ve heard of that position. Hm.

Grace and peace to you.

Its not about satan not being able to stop the gospel from being preached…

Well, from spreading to other nations besides Israel… I say it is. :)

he can never stop that because the power of the gospel is the great chain that binds satan from deceiving the nations. Satan could only deceive the nations before the gospel ever existed.

Well no, people are saved the same way, through faith, regardless of the time in which they live (Hebrews 11 is very clear on there), and Jesus said all Scriptures (Moses and the prophets was about Him). The Gospel is the same before and after Jesus, it was just made manifest differently ~ through the prophets and by types and shadows before Jesus, and then by Jesus after Jesus, if that makes sense (I’m referring to Hebrews 1:1-2 here).

I agree with you that Satan, in and of himself cannot deceive the nations. But if God, to suit His purposes, allows him to for a time, then he can. And this is what happened before Jesus came, opening the Gospel to all nations rather than how it was until then, to the Israelites only.

I believe that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with it its about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. The end was the end of the Old Covenant temple and sacrificial age

Ah, I agree, but I believe ~ and this is the pattern of virtually all Biblical prophecy ~ that it has both immediate and larger, long range implications, 70 AD the former, and the end of the age the latter. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Its not about satan not being able to stop the gospel from being preached he can never stop that because the power of the gospel is the great chain that binds satan from deceiving the nations.

In your mind that explains that. What then explains the following since these are in the same pit satan ends up in?

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

 

[PinSeeker]

Precisely as in John 1:14. The flesh (physical, human, sinful man) is contrast with the spirit (divine, holy, righteous, God).

Romans says so clearly--

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Are you aware of scriptural examples where the flesh is depicted as particularly good?

I think you’re missing half my point, Mr. E. Or, alternatively, you’re missing one of my two points. I don’t mean to argue, or sound antagonistic.

To your question, I’ll just say that the physical, in and of itself, is good. Along with the rest of God’s creation, God, in Genesis 1, of course, pronounced it good, and even very good.

And I’ll say again concerning the use of “flesh” in the Bible, sometimes the context is with regard to the physical body, and other times the context with regard to the sinful nature. Perhaps you agree, and perhaps not.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Fred J]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's at the second coming. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul I believe teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

Lets say, your enemy run you over in a car multiple times using a monster truck, and the car become a total loss scrap. Yet, you live and are scratchless, and where the insurance you trust and taken, now award you with a brand new everlasting car.

For it is written, 'Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of GOD.' On that day called rapture, true saints in the blink of an eye, they all shall be changed to the Heavenly bodies before ascension.

It's all easily said than done, when we're leaving a 'lukewarm' Christian church lives at this present age.

 

[Marty fox]

Lets say, your enemy run you over in a car multiple times using a monster truck, and the car become a total loss scrap. Yet, you live and are scratchless, and where the insurance you trust and taken, now award you with a brand new everlasting car.

For it is written, 'Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of GOD.' On that day called rapture, true saints in the blink of an eye, they all shall be changed to the Heavenly bodies before ascension.

It's all easily said than done, when we're leaving a 'lukewarm' Christian church lives at this present age.

Sorry but are you agreeing or disagreeing with the OP?

 

[Marty fox]

In your mind that explains that. What then explains the following since these are in the same pit satan ends up in?

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

It’s not a literal pit how can there be an actual literal bottomless pit?

It’s obvious symbolic for a spiritual state

 

[Fred J]

Sorry but are you agreeing or disagreeing with the OP?

Sorry too, for me Scripture speaks for itself.

For it is written, "Not all who call Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of My FATHER."

"The path is narrow and way is hard, for only a few make it."

"Many are called but only a few chosen."

Gentile believers, let us not be wise in our own conceit, examine ourselves and work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.

Learn the parable of the Cultivated Olive Tree and the Wild Olive Tree, and it's branches in the epistle to the church of Romans.

 

[Marty fox]

I’ve heard a lot of different things in my day, but that’s the first I’ve heard of that position. Hm.

Grace and peace to you.



Well, from spreading to other nations besides Israel… I say it is. :)


Well no, people are saved the same way, through faith, regardless of the time in which they live (Hebrews 11 is very clear on there), and Jesus said all Scriptures (Moses and the prophets was about Him). The Gospel is the same before and after Jesus, it was just made manifest differently ~ through the prophets and by types and shadows before Jesus, and then by Jesus after Jesus, if that makes sense (I’m referring to Hebrews 1:1-2 here).

I agree with you that Satan, in and of himself cannot deceive the nations. But if God, to suit His purposes, allows him to for a time, then he can. And this is what happened before Jesus came, opening the Gospel to all nations rather than how it was until then, to the Israelites only.


Ah, I agree, but I believe ~ and this is the pattern of virtually all Biblical prophecy ~ that it has both immediate and larger, long range implications, 70 AD the former, and the end of the age the latter. :)

Grace and peace to you.

Thanks for you post

Why do you say the other nations besides Israel? Don’t you think Israel was deceived during the first advent?

Yes Ofcourse they are saved in the same way as us but they didn’t have the gospel and things changed at the cross

Colossians 2:15

And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

 

[Marty fox]

Sorry too, for me Scripture speaks for itself.

For it is written, "Not all who call Me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of My FATHER."

"The path is narrow and way is hard, for only a few make it."

"Many are called but only a few chosen."

Gentile believers, let us not be wise in our own conceit, examine ourselves and work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.

Learn the parable of the Cultivated Olive Tree and the Wild Olive Tree, and it's branches in the epistle to the church of Romans.

Sorry again but you have lost me I don’t understand what you are trying to say are you saying you I am not a Christian?

 

[Fred J]

Sorry again but you have lost me I don’t understand what you are trying to say are you saying you I am not a Christian?

How can you be lost, when you have the New Covenant words/teaching of the Messiah in context to examine oneself.

If you've have been a fervent doer and abider to all His teaching there, then you have GOD and the Son, nothing to worry.

My reply is to the general readers, even myself included, peace be with you in Jesus name.

 

[ewq1938]

It’s not a literal pit how can there be an actual literal bottomless pit?

It’s obvious symbolic for a spiritual state

Then there would be no need for an angel with a key to a lock or a chain etc. It's a pit created by God, a literal place that is "bottomless". The word is actually means "a pit of immeasurable depth" not bottomless. Never rely on the outdated English translation.

 

[Davy]

All you do here is prove that you don't even understand what I'm saying I've tried to explain it to you before but you won't listen

What I did was to disprove men's doctrine of the 2nd century A.D. Gnostics, called Amillennialism. It's a very easy false doctrine to disprove by Bible Scripture. My suggestion to you is that you find another church that stays with all of the written Bible Scripture instead of pulling out a single verse from The Bible and trying to make it fit a dreamed up doctrine from men.

 

[rwb]

But David was physically dead, although he was not martyred, he was physically dead. The initial group in Revelation 20:4 is physically dead people according to your view. The rest of the dead has to be referring back to the initial group of physically dead people.

Why isn’t David part of the initial group when he was physically dead and his spirit was raised along with the others in Matthew 27:52-53?

GB, when John writes that he saw martyred souls alive in heaven, that does not mean they are the only souls who have died and are a spiritual body of believers there. He specifically mentions those martyred for their faith, that we might know what kind of battle we face as we go into all the nations of the word proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. All who faithfully preach the Gospel have a target on our backs, in a manner of speaking. John speaks of the martyred who are still alive that we too might have their courage. Until we face the choice of life or death because of our love for Christ and others, we will not know of the great courage and strength from the Holy Spirit these martyrs faced as they steadfastly kept the faith.

We know from passages like Mt 27:52-53, and Eph 4:8-10 that all who died in faith and all who shall die in faith have been set free from bondage to fear of death as we continue to share the love of Christ will all the people of the world. All who were of faith, already dead and buried, like David and all the other Old Covenant faithful saints are now alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers because Christ gave His life and arose from the dead to set them free.

 

[rwb]

The difference is that it means the initial group of dead people is meant figuratively not literally.

No, what it means is that the DEAD remain the rest of the DEAD because they did not in TIME (a thousand symbolic years) live and reign with Christ before they died. Since they have physically died it is too late for them to ever live and reign with Him, so they shall not live again until after TIME symbolized a thousand years has ended. After Satan has his little season they will be raised to life again to die the second death.

 

[rwb]

Like you pointed out in another post, the moment satan is loosed, if the rest of the dead don't live again, this indicates it is then untrue that the rest of the dead don't live again until after the thousand years are finished. There is logic to your argument, I give you that.

One problem is this, especially if one were to place the thousand years and satan's little season in this present age. There is zero that I know of that supports the resurrection of the lost dead rising at the beginning of his little season. The reason why, per this scenario, satan's little season precedes the 2nd coming and that a bodily resurrection of anyone, saved or unsaved, is not possible unless Christ has returned first. Can't see that working then. And I assume neither can you.

The question then, pertaining to the rest of the dead, what sense is that meaning in? That they are physically dead? Or dead in another sense not having to do with being physically dead? Let's assume it might be the latter. What is it then that allows them to live again after the thousand years but prevented them from living again during the thousand years?

One could probably argue that it was the first resurrection that prevented them from living again during the thousand years since they had no part in it. Maybe that might answer that question, keeping in mind we are meaning death in another sense rather than in the literal sense. Something that has crossed my mind is this, which of course can't fit Premil, though. It is the beast that rises from the pit that breathes new life into them, so to speak. But then again, if when they live again is not pertaining to them bodily rising in order to stand before God at the GWTJ to be judged and sentenced, what in Revelation 20 is meaning their bodily resurrection if it can't be meaning that in verse 5?

The dead are allowed to live again, that they may die again in the LOF that is the second death. This is the only reason the dead shall be raised to life again in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[rwb]

Yes I believe in two separate millenniums one the binding and one the reigning.

Its not about satan not being able to stop the gospel from being preached he can never stop that because the power of the gospel is the great chain that binds satan from deceiving the nations. Satan could only deceive the nations before the gospel ever existed.

I believe that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with it its about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. The end was the end of the Old Covenant temple and sacrificial age

The ones in 2 Timothy are the ungodly denying the power so the faithfull are instructed to stay away from them

Yes the gospel and the power of it is everlasting maybe the problem is the conforming church

This is why I asked you if you believed we reign with Christ in life Marty? You answered yes, and I agreed. We reign in life with Christ during the same time that Satan has been bound. There is not a a thousand years for Satan's binding, and another thousand years when believers before physically dying live and reign with Christ. They are the same period of TIME symbolized a thousand years.

Matthew 24 was spoken to first century Christian disciples of Christ, pertaining to things that shall come as the CHURCH takes the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the earth. Though 70 AD is the historical date of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and Christ speaks of some things His disciples alive then will have to face, the discourse is written for His Church, that is Christians of every generation to come after the first generation to the end of the age. Christians are "this generation" that shall not pass until all these things shall be fulfilled.

1 Peter 2:7-10 (KJV) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.