Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[rwb]

Actually, I'm not sure anyone here could even be labeled a partial preterist. I'll just say what I believe, and then people can either agree or disagree with it...

I believe that at least most of John's prophecies are in the process of being fulfilled ~ which is to say neither some of them (partial preterism) nor all of them (full preterism) have been fulfilled. Most all of John's prophecies (except the final conflict and the return of Christ, obviously; those things are yet to com) have multiple ~ maaaaaaaany :) ~ iterations over the course of the millennium, many of which have taken place, and many of which are happening now, and many of which are still yet to come. For example, in the first four chapters of Revelation, Jesus addresses the seven churches, and all the addresses are applicable to all churches to some degree through the course of the millennium; all churches have fallen, are falling, and will fall into these... categories... through the course of the millennium.

So again ~ in my opinion ~ neither the partial preterist or full preterist label is appropriate.

Grace and peace to all.

I mostly agree. I really can't understand why some label themselves PP instead of simply saying some of what is written is past history.

Grace and peace to you also.

 

[Mr E]

If all of that is true that His spirit ascended to heaven upon death why then did Jesus say, shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? No way in a million years is the heart of the earth meaning up in heaven. Nowhere in the text below did Jesus ever claim He would be in heaven three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The son of man is flesh-- human. Flesh gives birth to flesh. The son of man was three days in the tomb.

 

[rwb]

Okay thanks but my question was do you think that they still reign in the time between satans release and the end of our world?

As long as Christians are physically alive in this world, I would think they are reigning spiritually with Christ. The problem may be how one views this reigning. It is NOT over the world in unbelief, we spiritually reign with Christ over the spiritual Kingdom of God. Until one comes out of the darkness and into the light and life through Christ, they are of this world, and children of the devil, who reigns over them.

 

[grafted branch]

I'm saying the rest of the dead have zero to do with satan's little season. They don't live again until the time of the great white throne judgment. The way they live again is by being bodily raised from the dead in order to stand before God fully bodily alive at this judgment. IOW, when they get cast into the LOF they are cast in bodily, fully alive. Unless they too possess immortal bodies, they can't possibly remain bodily alive forever though, thus the 2nd death has power over them.

So why does Revelation 20:5 say the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished? When it should’ve said the rest of the dead lived not again until the little season was finished.

 

[rwb]

I grasp your logic as to why you are reasoning some of these things in this manner. On one hand it tends to make sense, on the other hand it tends not to. I just don't see the logic in satan's little season occurring during the 7th trumpet? The 7th trumpet involves the wrath of God not satan deceiving nations. Assuming satan's little season happens in this age, it would have to be involving the 42 month reign of the beast. Can't see the 42 month reign of the beast occurring during the 7th trumpet when the little season meant per the 5th seal is already pertaining to the 42 month reign of the beast and that the 5th seal events precede the 7th trumpet events.

1. Satan's little season does NOT begin until this age of TIME, symbolized a thousand years has ended.

2. Day(s) follow the sounding of the seventh trumpet, why? Because Satan's little season begins then.

3. At the end of Satan's little season, still in the day(s) that follow the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the time for the saints (both dead & living) shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The Lord has returned, but before He and the saints receive their eternal reward on the new earth, the wrath of God through fire from heaven comes down to destroy this earth and every living thing on it. Satan is cast into the LOF, and the GWTJ Day has come.

4. Last but not least, there shall be a new heaven and new earth where Christ is with His saints clothed in immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh who will be with Him forever.

 

[rwb]

So why does Revelation 20:5 say the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished? When it should’ve said the rest of the dead lived not again until the little season was finished.

What's the difference? Because none shall physically live again until they are bodily resurrected to life or damnation in an hour coming when the last trumpet begins to sound. Satan's little season begins when the seventh trumpet begins to sound this time symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer. After Satan's little season in the days the seventh trumpet begins to sound, Christ shall come again, the saints are raptured, this earth and all alive on it shall be burned up, the dead shall be judged, and then there will be a new earth.

 

[Marty fox]

As long as Christians are physically alive in this world, I would think they are reigning spiritually with Christ. The problem may be how one views this reigning. It is NOT over the world in unbelief, we spiritually reign with Christ over the spiritual Kingdom of God. Until one comes out of the darkness and into the light and life through Christ, they are of this world, and children of the devil, who reigns over them.

Yes I fully agree so thus this proves my point that the reigning carries on after the binding

 

[Marty fox]

Thunder only happens when it's reigning....

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

I don't want to take this conversation too far afield, but in a nutshell, these crowns of gold that are set aside represent the rest/reward that these elders were given. They fall down (casting their crowns) and descending from the heavens to the earth below, in service to the anointed one.

Soooo are you agreeing with me?

 

[rwb]

Yes I fully agree so thus this proves my point that the reigning carries on after the binding

I wasn't aware that was your point Marty. Sorry if I misunderstood the point you are making.

 

[grafted branch]

What's the difference? Because none shall physically live again until they are bodily resurrected to life or damnation in an hour coming when the last trumpet begins to sound. Satan's little season begins when the seventh trumpet begins to sound this time symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer. After Satan's little season in the days the seventh trumpet begins to sound, Christ shall come again, the saints are raptured, this earth and all alive on it shall be burned up, the dead shall be judged, and then there will be a new earth.

The difference is that it means the initial group of dead people is meant figuratively not literally.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes I fully agree so thus this proves my point that the reigning carries on after the binding

Marty, I’ve been thinking about your two millenniums and actually this argument that the reigning carries on looks to me like it would disprove the two millenniums.

 

[PinSeeker]

What about this passage then?

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Unless one wants to argue that the soul and body are the same thing, this passage says soul not body. Or unless one wants to argue soul sleep. That's what it would logically have to mean if pertaining to the soul, that if it is in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights, that the soul is sleeping rather than dwelling somewhere else consciously.

I... see a lot of, um, creative :) posts/thoughts on this board from a number of posters concerning the soul, and the spirit, and hell, and the flesh (among other things). :)

Regarding specifically what you state here, though, Jesus's physical body was certainly in the tomb three days and nights, and His spirit was with the Father. As another poster pointed out previously, He offered up (or commended, or entrusted, or gave) His spirit to the Father upon breathing His last (dying physically) on the cross. And then on the Sunday morning after His crucifixion, His spirit was reunited with His physical body. And this is what will happen for us Christians.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, I’ve been thinking about your two millenniums and actually this argument that the reigning carries on looks to me like it would disprove the two millenniums.

Not at all if the reigning carries on after the binding then there are two millenniums one the reigning and one the binding that end at different times.

They actually have nothing to do with each except the fact that Jesus death and resurrection was the reason for the start of them.

Besides that they have nothing to do with each other because we don't reign with Jesus because satan is bound we reign with Jesus because He is God. Jeus was just the reason for each set of thousand years

 

[PinSeeker]

The son of man is flesh-- human.

Right, but that's not the only context that 'flesh' and/or 'of the flesh' is used in the Bible, and that gives some posters on here a hard time (though of course they don't think so). :)

Grace and peace to you, Mr. E.

 

[grafted branch]

Not at all if the reigning carries on after the binding then there are two millenniums one the reigning and one the binding that end at different times.

They actually have nothing to do with each except the fact that Jesus death and resurrection was the reason for the start of them.

Besides that they have nothing to do with each other because we don't reign with Jesus because satan is bound we reign with Jesus because He is God. Jeus was just the reason for each set of thousand years

Here’s what I’ve been looking at, I think you agree here, in a two millennium scenario Satan being loosed can’t affect the reigning and priesthood of the believers.

I’m not sure how you view Satan being bound but I think most Amill generally associate his binding with Satan no longer able to prevent the gospel from being preached or Satan no longer able to deceive people from “hearing” or “seeing” the gospel. Satan being loosed then reverses this situation. If you have another different view of how Satan is bound let me know.



1. If Satan being loosed allows him to stop the gospel from being preached then this would seem to contradict Revelation 20:4 where those who reign are beheaded for the witness of Jesus and word of God.

Matthew 24:14 says And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. If this is the end of Satans millennium then preaching couldn’t be part of the reigning yet that is the very reason they are beheaded and reign in Revelation 20:4. If this is the end of the human millennium then Satan being bound in the first place has nothing to do with him preventing the gospel from being preached.







2. If Satan being loosed allows him to prevent people from “hearing” or “seeing” the gospel once again, then the gospel no longer has the power to save people. The gospel becomes powerless against Satan.


2 Timothy 3:1-5 1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come … 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


The power of the gospel cannot be what binds Satan in the first place if denying that power is something to turn away from, because Satan being loosed would reverse that power. Also the gospel itself is seen as everlasting in Revelation 14:6, which one would think includes the power of it.

 

[Davidpt]

So why does Revelation 20:5 say the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished? When it should’ve said the rest of the dead lived not again until the little season was finished.

Like you pointed out in another post, the moment satan is loosed, if the rest of the dead don't live again, this indicates it is then untrue that the rest of the dead don't live again until after the thousand years are finished. There is logic to your argument, I give you that.

One problem is this, especially if one were to place the thousand years and satan's little season in this present age. There is zero that I know of that supports the resurrection of the lost dead rising at the beginning of his little season. The reason why, per this scenario, satan's little season precedes the 2nd coming and that a bodily resurrection of anyone, saved or unsaved, is not possible unless Christ has returned first. Can't see that working then. And I assume neither can you.

The question then, pertaining to the rest of the dead, what sense is that meaning in? That they are physically dead? Or dead in another sense not having to do with being physically dead? Let's assume it might be the latter. What is it then that allows them to live again after the thousand years but prevented them from living again during the thousand years?

One could probably argue that it was the first resurrection that prevented them from living again during the thousand years since they had no part in it. Maybe that might answer that question, keeping in mind we are meaning death in another sense rather than in the literal sense. Something that has crossed my mind is this, which of course can't fit Premil, though. It is the beast that rises from the pit that breathes new life into them, so to speak. But then again, if when they live again is not pertaining to them bodily rising in order to stand before God at the GWTJ to be judged and sentenced, what in Revelation 20 is meaning their bodily resurrection if it can't be meaning that in verse 5?

 

[grafted branch]

The question then, pertaining to the rest of the dead, what sense is that meaning in? That they are physically dead? Or dead in another sense not having to do with being physically dead? Let's assume it might be the latter. What is it then that allows them to live again after the thousand years but prevented them from living again during the thousand years?

I see the beheaded people in Revelation 20:4 as those under the old covenant and when Jesus the Messiah died He was cut off. They are beheaded in the same sense as the New Testament church is the body and Jesus is the head, although in this case it’s the Old Testament body that is beheaded.

In Luke 17:30 there is a day when the Son of man is revealed. When this event happens to those to whom He is revealed they are no longer beheaded, they live at that point.

 

[Mr E]

Right, but that's not the only context that 'flesh' and/or 'of the flesh' is used in the Bible, and that gives some posters on here a hard time (though of course they don't think so). :)

Grace and peace to you, Mr. E.

True that.... and I understand your hesitancy to name and claim the association, but in the broader sense- 'the flesh' in scripture, is equated to "sin" -- in a way that is synonymous (pun intended). In the scriptural context, the human condition is flesh and flesh is sinful by nature, thus the very essence of being human, denotes that humans are naturally-- sinful. All of them.

Getting this point across is very much like pushing a rope uphill. Not impossible, but certainly slow-going.

Peace and grapes to you too.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's at the second coming. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

There is nothing... controversial about that Revelation 20:4 verse. The controversy is a fabrication by liars against the simple Word of God. Marty has simply been deceived by charlatans.

What Marty fox is espousing is false doctrines of men that pull a single verse out of the BIBLICAL CONTEXT of the chapter, and wrongly apply it according to their false designs. This is easy for the serious Bible student to grasp, simply because those pushing the controversy show they don't understand the New Testament Scriptures.


All of the following verses are relevant to the subject of those saints of the FIRST RESURRECTION that will reign with Jesus Christ at His future coming...

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

That 'resurrection' does not happen until the LAST DAY of this world, on the day which Jesus returns in the future! (John 5:28-29; John 6:40). Apostle Paul rebuked Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2 Timothy 2:17-18 for teaching that the resurrection was past already. To believe the false doctrine Marty fox said, one would have to believe the resurrection happened already in the days of Apostle Paul!

In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul also revealed the future timing of Christ's future reign over the nations, so Paul definitely did NOT apply that to his days, but of a time future to his day...

1 Cor 15:20-26
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

That end is pointing to after God's GWT Judgment at the end of Rev.20, after... Christ's "thousand years" reign and Satan is loosed one final time to lead the unsaved of the nations up against the "camp of the saints" on earth.

Hasn't anyone figured out that "camp of the saints" of Rev.20:8-9 is still today NOT YET established on earth like it says? for it means Jerusalem inhabited by Christ and His elect that reign with Him.

25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
KJV

What idiot wants us to think that Lord Jesus Christ is already reigning in His Kingdom with all the evil still going on in this present world? Those who think that reign has come already are deceived, and do not understand the times written in God's Word.

To believe those nuts that Marty is believing, one would have to discard even Christ's warning about the coming Antichrist at the end of this present world! And to say there is no Antichrist coming in our near future, or that Antichrist came already, that is to say that Jesus' future 2nd coming has already happened too! What kind of person would think such a crazy idea that is totally... away from the written Word of God in The New Testament? I assure you, those behind that stupidity do not study The New Testament that much, or their spiritual eyes are blinded to the New Testament Books. So who most likely would that be? (see Romans 11 about those Paul said God blinded).

The last enemy, death being destroyed, does not happen until after Christ's future "thousand years" reign and God's GWT Judgment of Rev.20. When Jesus returns to begin His thousand years reign, all wickedness will be subdued, and even those nations that refuse to come up to Jerusalem to worship the KING from year to year, and keep the feast of tabernacles, there won't be any rain upon their lands. So like Scripture says, Jesus and His elect will reign in that future time with a "rod of iron", meaning He will be very strict upon those who want to do falseness like in this present world. So to suggest that Jesus is already reigning over today's nations with that "rod of iron" is a huge joke by the devil, and the devil must really be laughing at the gullible who believe that lie.

 

[Marty fox]

Here’s what I’ve been looking at, I think you agree here, in a two millennium scenario Satan being loosed can’t affect the reigning and priesthood of the believers.

I’m not sure how you view Satan being bound but I think most Amill generally associate his binding with Satan no longer able to prevent the gospel from being preached or Satan no longer able to deceive people from “hearing” or “seeing” the gospel. Satan being loosed then reverses this situation. If you have another different view of how Satan is bound let me know.



1. If Satan being loosed allows him to stop the gospel from being preached then this would seem to contradict Revelation 20:4 where those who reign are beheaded for the witness of Jesus and word of God.

Matthew 24:14 says And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. If this is the end of Satans millennium then preaching couldn’t be part of the reigning yet that is the very reason they are beheaded and reign in Revelation 20:4. If this is the end of the human millennium then Satan being bound in the first place has nothing to do with him preventing the gospel from being preached.







2. If Satan being loosed allows him to prevent people from “hearing” or “seeing” the gospel once again, then the gospel no longer has the power to save people. The gospel becomes powerless against Satan.


2 Timothy 3:1-5 1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come … 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


The power of the gospel cannot be what binds Satan in the first place if denying that power is something to turn away from, because Satan being loosed would reverse that power. Also the gospel itself is seen as everlasting in Revelation 14:6, which one would think includes the power of it.

Yes I believe in two separate millenniums one the binding and one the reigning.

Its not about satan not being able to stop the gospel from being preached he can never stop that because the power of the gospel is the great chain that binds satan from deceiving the nations. Satan could only deceive the nations before the gospel ever existed.

I believe that Matthew 24 has nothing to do with it its about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. The end was the end of the Old Covenant temple and sacrificial age

The ones in 2 Timothy are the ungodly denying the power so the faithfull are instructed to stay away from them

Yes the gospel and the power of it is everlasting maybe the problem is the conforming church