Paul taught that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality

[Spiritual Israelite]

I appreciate your thoughts.

I have not put a question mark over your beliefs or your belief in the grace of God. I simply articulated what I believe.

Yes, that's true. And I appreciate that, also. I suppose I was getting ahead of myself and anticipating your response to what I was saying in my post and addressing it ahead of time even before you actually responded.

Notwithstanding, I think you are wrong to change spiritual death to spiritual sickness. I totally disagree with that.

You are misrepresenting my view here. Please read what I said again. I clearly indicated that there is a sense in which we are both spiritually dead (dead in sins), but also a sense in which we are spiritually sick (in need of a physician). I did not "change spiritual death to spiritual sickness". Do you deny that there is a sense that unsaved people are spiritually sick as well as a sense in which they are spiritually dead?

Matthew 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Can you see here that Jesus referred to sinners as being "sick"? What is your understanding of that? Keeping in mind that I'm not denying that sinners are also "dead in sins". Clearly, scripture teaches there is a sense in which we are spiritually dead, but also a sense in which we are spiritually sick. So, I don't know why you would either deny that or not want to think about what it means to be spiritually sick.

I already know what you think it means to be "dead in sins", but what does it mean to be spiritually sick in need of a physician? Is a sick person unable to acknowledge that they need a physician without the physician causing them to acknowledge that?

I believe you are diluting the enormity of the said death in order to fit your view.

Nope. I'm not doing that. Please don't make assumptions about my view before you even fully understand it. And I'm pretty sure that you do not currently fully understand it. Please don't lump me in with any other non-Calvinists (sorry for the label, but how else can I refer to them?) you may have talked to before because my view does not necessarily agree with theirs.

Spiritual death is as real and more destructive than physical death.

Of course. Did you really think I disagree with this? Spiritual death results in spending eternity in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). Can't get any more destructive than that.

Man is a rebel outside of Christ; He doesn’t understand the deep things of God and he does not have the ability to fulfill the high demands of God.

Absolutely. Paul makes that clear in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16. But, are we talking about "the deep things of God" when we talk about the gospel, faith, repentance and salvation? I don't believe so. The deep things of God are what Paul later calls "meat" or "solid food" (1 Corinthians 3:2). Even "babes in Christ" are not able to eat the solid food (understand the deep things of God) as Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. He said instead they are only drinking the milk (basic things of God) and not ready for the solid food (deep things of God). Is "the natural man" really not able to understand what God expects of him, which is to humble himself, acknowledge that he is a sinner who can't save himself and place His trust in Jesus for salvation instead? I don't believe scripture teaches that.

Yes, people don't just randomly believe out of the blue. I'm not saying that. As Paul said, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 1:16-17).

God reaches out to people with the gospel and by speaking to their hearts and then people are required to respond. As you can see here, some choose to resist that:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Matthew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

In your view, what is the reason that people resist the Holy Spirit? In the case of those religious Jews that Stephen was rebuking in Acts 7:51, could they have chosen not to resist the Holy Spirit instead? I believe so. Otherwise, why did Stephen get angry with them for resisting the Holy Spirit?

As for the religious Jews who rejected Christ in His day, why were they not willing to accept God's invite to them to be part of Christ's bride? Could they have chosen to be willing to accept the invite instead? I believe so. Otherwise, why did Jesus say to them "I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings"? That is what Jesus genuinely wanted to do, right? So, whose choice was it to go against what Jesus wanted? The unbelieving Jews willingly chose that, right? Would Jesus have indicated that He wanted them to be willing instead if they were not capable of being willing to accept Him because of being spiritually dead? I don't believe that makes any sense. I think His reaction to their unwillingness would have been much different in that case. And Stephen's reaction to them would have been much different, also.

Okay, I have to do something else now, but I will look at the rest of your post later.

 

[PinSeeker]

I have chosen, using my free will, to finally not waste any more time on you after this post. And I mean it this time.

So, the 74th time is a charm...? And a rhetorical question, here, SI: "waste any more time on (me")... why do you even say stuff like that? Hey, I see you are doing the same with WPM now. Are you "wasting your time on" him? Truthfully, though, in a certain sense, I agree.

I don't like the way you are...

You just don't like being disagreed with... And proven wrong, which, of course, you'll disagree with.

...you think I misunderstand most of what you say...

As I have said, you have changed, time after time, what I have said, and made it into something very different... and absurd, in many instances. And again, it's been over and over and over again. Whatever that is, whatever you want to call it, it's... not good.

and I think you misunderstand a lot of what I say.

As I said, most of this thread has been about what I have said and what you say I believe, which ~ over and over again ~ I have said was not what I have said or what I believe (or what Calvinists believe). And the few things that have been about what you've said you hold fast to and ignore the obvious implications and ramifications of those things, which I point out and which are clearly antithetical to Scripture. As I said, this is what Arminians are prone to.

You immediately dismiss most of my arguments and resort to claiming I'm misrepresenting your beliefs or you resort to saying it's a mystery.

Nope; see above. And... LOL... I have never said anything about a "mystery" of any kind.

I'd rather talk to someone who has more intellectual honesty than that.

You'd just rather talk to someone who nods and says, "You are so right!" all the time.

Are you under the impression that you have responded to very single point that I have made in this long discussion that we've had?

No, but most.

But, you have the gall to complain about me not responding to one of the many (hundreds?) of points that you have made in this discussion.

That was not my "complaint," SI. Again, I have quoted numerous passages of Scripture to either back my own points up or just prove my points, and you have offered nothing, at least for the most part, to refute my Scriptural clarifications. I'm quite sure that'll get another "Are you for real" kind of guffaw, but it is what it is.

Not true at all.

It is absolutely true. There is quite the difference between 'can't' and 'won't,' the former denoting absolute inability and the latter indicating a conscious decision, and you will not ~ see what I did there? ~ acknowledge that distinction... or at least to this point have not, and it is clear why, because then, you would have to admit your error and abandon your position. But again, you can use the word 'can't,' but only if you use it in the manner of not being able to bring yourself to do or say something.

You don't seem willing to acknowledge that in your doctrine the reason people won't is because they can't...

I will, if you first agree that 'can't' is to be understood in the manner of not being able willingly change one's own disposition toward something, not being able to willingly bring oneself abandon one position in favor of the other. And in that sense, you can't accept what I'm saying, not because you can't, per se, but because you very willfully won't.

...as designed by God. And in your doctrine He inexplicably punishes people for doing things they won't do even though they can't do those things (repent and believe).

Well, there you go again telling me what I believe, which is quite ridiculous. But in saying this, you are in essence saying that I believe God to be the author of sin, which would be to say God Himself is sinful, none of which is the case. So, yes, having explained why, I dismiss what you say.

You think they are born that way which I have thoroughly refuted using Romans 1 and other scriptures.

Which you are very much mistaken in doing, which I have thoroughly demonstrated. We'll agree to disagree.

I have made it clear that faith is not the kind of work mentioned in passages like Ephesians 2:8-10.

Yet again, sure you have, but since you say faith is not a gift of the Spirit and of God, you make it out to be a work of man rather than a work of God, and thus the contradiction.

Clearly, I believe that man is responsible to put his faith in Christ willingly by choice.

Yes, and here we go, very clearly you believe that. Very clearly you believe faith is a work of man ~ a product of his/her own making ~ rather than that of God, which is absolutely opposite what Paul says in Ephesians 2. You say it, but then you turn right back around and deny it, thus the contradiction in your own thinking.

You can call that a work of man if you want, but it is NOT one of the kind of works that Paul references in passages like Ephesians 2:8-10 because he says there that salvation IS through faith, but is NOT through works.

A total miss. Goodness gracious. "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

I'm not going to explain this to you anymore.

Good. No need to keep misfiring. We should all strive against that.

If you want to just ignore what I actually believe and falsely represent it then that is your free will choice and I can't force you to make the choice to address my beliefs instead of your straw man's beliefs.

Okay, I'm done with this now.

Are you sure about that?

*************************************************************************************

Okay, I just had to respond to this post even though I'm otherwise done with our discussion

Ah! Seventy-five! Seventy five times! AHHHHHH... HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Are you surprised that I agree with all of the things that you mentioned above?

No.

If you are surprised, then it shows that you really don't even understand what I believe.

Right, so, in view of the fact that I am not surprised... You finish the sentence; I think you can do that... But whether or not you will is another thing...

Grace and peace to you, SI.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That was not my "complaint," SI. Again, I have quoted numerous passages of Scripture to either back my own points up or just prove my points, and you have offered nothing, at least for the most part, to refute my Scriptural clarifications. I'm quite sure that'll get another "Are you for real" kind of guffaw, but it is what it is.

That is a blatant lie and you are a liar. I have offered nothing? You are a joke! I have offered plenty. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. Acting like I offered nothing....you are pathetic. I have no respect for you whatsoever.

And you can say "Oh, I thought you said you were done...HAHAHAHA" like a child all you want, but if you keep saying things like this and lying about me, I will defend myself. I want to be done with this and with you, but if you're going to lie about me like this, I will respond.

 

[PinSeeker]

Seventy-six...

That is a blatant lie and you are a liar. I have offered nothing? You are a joke!

I didn't make any kind of all-encompassing statement, Spiritual Israelite. I did not in any way say you have offered nothing at all. So no, what I said was not a lie, and I am not a liar, or a "joke." Seems to me we could just chalk that up as a misunderstanding, which, you know, happens. But hey, keep saying such things if you like; it bothers me not, and really it says much, much more about you than I.

I have offered plenty.

I did not say you have not offered anything, or even close to that.

Acting like I offered nothing....

I'm most certainly not.

you are pathetic. I have no respect for you whatsoever.

You have no idea how much I don't care. My identity is in Christ.

And you can say "Oh, I thought you said you were done...HAHAHAHA" like a child all you want...

Just having some fun with you, SI, because there comes a point when that's pretty much all you can do.

, but if you keep saying things like this...

Like what? Like "you are a liar," and "you are a joke," and "you are pathetic, and "I have no respect for you whatsoever"? That's all you, bud.

...lying about me...

I'm not; see directly above...

, I will defend myself....

Okay, but so much of what you have said is indefensible.

I want to be done with this and with you...

I'm good with that anytime. But at this point, I kind of what to see how long I can keep you going...

, but if you're going to lie about me like this, I will respond.

Yep, not lying. But, respond away...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Oh'p! I got a reaction. Seventy-seven... Poor thing. Didn't mean to make SI cry...

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The day that Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden they spiritually died. As a result, man was separated from God spiritually and physically. Adam and Eve were forced out of the Garden of Eden and left carrying their own guilt, shame and condemnation. They were separated from God, separated from the life of God, separated from communion with God.

As soon as Adam and Eve fell, they ran from God, hid from Him, and had no inclination or ability to reconcile with God. They could not come to him. He had to come to them. They were totally and utterly fallen. He had to help them.

Agree. God is the One who initiates the salvation process. In my view, people are then made responsible to respond to His call in the way God commands and requires.

They could not help themselves. He made a blood sacrifice, allowing them to be forgiven, exercise faith in him and come into a personal relationship with Him.

Yes, He gave them the opportunity to be forgiven. He didn't supernaturally cause them to exercise faith in him, though. I don't see that described anywhere. He graciously gave them that opportunity even though He was not obligated to do so. Scripture says He gives everyone that opportunity.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

It's verses like this that I don't know how those who believe in "the doctrines of grace" can reconcile. PinSeeker tried and failed miserably, in my opinion. His view implies that this gracious offer of salvation that God makes to all people is not sincere and genuine for some people (the people who aren't given faith) since there is no possibility that those people could accept the offer. What are your thoughts on this?

Romans 3:10-12 explains why, saying, “There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Amen. I fully agree with this passage. The fact that you felt the need to quote this as if what it says is in opposition to what I said in my post tells me that you have the wrong idea of what I believe. What this passage is referring to is the fact that people are naturally sinners (therefore not righteous and not good) who don't have understanding and they would remain in this condition if God did not reach out to people and she light on the truth to them. Thankfully, He has done just that by way of His Word and by talking to people's hearts (so to speak) by way of His Holy Spirit.

You seem to attribute qualities and capabilities to the old nature that Scripture doesn't. This text is pretty comprehensive and pretty damning on our natural man. The natural man has desires only for himself and not for the glory of God.

If God did nothing to reveal Himself to man, then what you're saying would be true. But, He did. So, then what? Romans 3:10-12 says there is no one who seeks after God and yet other scripture says things like this:

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

How do you reconcile a verse like this which says that God rewards those who earnestly seek Him with Romans 3:10 saying that none seek Him? If we didn't know any better we might think that was a contradiction. But, we know there are no contradictions in scripture.

The way I reconcile the two verses is that no one just naturally seeks God without any prompting or any revelation from God. However, once people do receive revelation from God by way of the preaching of His Word and of the gospel, along with inner promptings of the Holy Spirit, then they can choose to seek God or not. While the Holy Spirit is urging people to embrace the Word of God that they are hearing, it can be resisted. So, I completely disagree with the idea of "irresistible grace".

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

What were the religious Jews that Stephen was railing against resisting here? What was the Holy Spirit trying to get them to do that they were resisting? It seems clear to me that the Holy Spirit was trying to get them to repent and to believe the message that Stephen was giving them, which was God's word and the gospel. Scripture says God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Stephen clearly believed that those religious Jews could and should repent or else he wouldn't have been upset with them for resisting the Holy Spirit.

Man by nature will always run from God. He will never come to God.

Even after God reaches out to him by way of the preaching of the gospel and speaking to his heart by way of the Holy Spirit? If that's what you're saying, then I disagree.

His nature is to rebel against God. When man goes over the natural line of outright rejection of God then he becomes reprobate. This is the end of every man natural. That is why he needs a supernatural intervention where Christ first opens his eyes. When he then sees his awful predicament then he repents and believes.

In Romans 1:18-32 Paul talks about people who "knew God" and understood "his eternal power and Godhead", but "became vain in their imaginations" and "became fools" who "exchanged the truth of God for a lie" by worshiping the creature more than the Creator with some of them exchanging natural sexual relations with the opposite sex for unnatural relations with the same sex. But, he said people have no excuse for any of that. How do you reconcile that with your view? Isn't it true in your view that everyone naturally becomes that way? If so, then why does Paul say they have no excuse for being that way? That doesn't line up. If they are naturally that way and can't help but be that way, as you seem to believe, then that seems like a good excuse for being that way. But, again, Paul says there is no excuse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you remember when the prophet Ezekiel was facing a pretty hopeless sight of the valley of dry bones? The nation of Israel was spiritually dead. The prophet in Ezekiel 37:3-4 testified:

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

None of this addresses man's responsibility which scripture speaks about repeatedly. Of course people have to "hear the word of the LORD" before they can be saved. That's what Paul indicated in Romans 10.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

So, what this indicates is that hearing the word of the LORD does not automatically result in salvation. Notice Paul said "they have not all obeyed the gospel". But not because they didn't hear the word of the LORD. As Paul said, "Have they not heard? Yes, verily". This implies that the man must choose to accept what he has heard or reject it and God makes man responsible for that.

Otherwise, what is the point of the day of judgment? Why would God take out His wrath on and punish people for something they couldn't do (because of not having been given faith)? That doesn't make sense. It makes more sense that He takes out His wrath and punishes people who willingly and stubbornly choose to refuse to obey His command to repent (Acts 17:30) and accept His offer of salvation (Titus 2:11) while having no excuse for that.

Resurrection power comes from the voice of God. When He speaks the dead respond.

Not automatically.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Sinclair B. Ferguson put it well: “Our old status lies in His tomb. A new status is ours through His resurrection.”

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Salvation involves us responding to the effectual call of God. That voice is a quickening voice – it brings life to the dead.

It brings life to those who are dead in sins (separated from God) who are sick and in need of a physician (Matthew 9:11-13), but only after they humble themselves in response to His call for them to repent and believe the gospel. Man's responsibility is taught repeatedly in scripture. What exactly do you believe man is responsible for in terms of him having to use his God given will and conscience to make decisions?

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

We all know that naturally dead people cannot bury naturally dead people. Amen? Only spiritually dead people can very naturally dead people.

• Prior to salvation man is spiritually “blind” (Matthew 13:13, 15-16; 2 Corinthians 4:4).
• Prior to salvation man is spiritually “deaf” ((Psalm 58:4; Ezekiel 12:2; Matthew 13:13, 15-16).

I agree with all of that, but you are talking about the status of people before God reaches out to them and reveals truth to them through the preaching of His word and the gospel. The preaching of the word sheds light and truth to people who are then responsible to decide what to do with what has been revealed to them. In the case of people like the religious Jews that Stephen scolded and that Jesus also scolded and expressed lament over, they decided to reject what was preached to them and to resist the Holy Spirit.

 

[WPM]

Agree. God is the One who initiates the salvation process. In my view, people are then made responsible to respond to His call in the way God commands and requires.


Yes, He gave them the opportunity to be forgiven. He didn't supernaturally cause them to exercise faith in him, though. I don't see that described anywhere. He graciously gave them that opportunity even though He was not obligated to do so. Scripture says He gives everyone that opportunity.

Titus 2: For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

It's verses like this that I don't know how those who believe in "the doctrines of grace" can reconcile. PinSeeker tried and failed miserably, in my opinion. His view implies that this gracious offer of salvation that God makes to all people is not sincere and genuine for some people (the people who aren't given faith) since there is no possibility that those people could accept the offer. What are your thoughts on this?


Amen. I fully agree with this passage. The fact that you felt the need to quote this as if what it says is in opposition to what I said in my post tells me that you have the wrong idea of what I believe. What this passage is referring to is the fact that people are naturally sinners (therefore not righteous and not good) who don't have understanding and they would remain in this condition if God did not reach out to people and she light on the truth to them. Thankfully, He has done just that by way of His Word and by talking to people's hearts (so to speak) by way of His Holy Spirit.

Titus 2 is simply revealing the general call. That is it! Your quoting of the NIV here is troubling. That is normally done when someone knows a normal translation does not support their argument. That is just my observation.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Please don’t miss the truth contained within this reading: it is “the grace of God that bringeth salvation,” not His wrath. That is all it is saying.

Men are without excuse. They willfully reject being rescued because that is their nature. They reject His offer of salvation because that is their nature.

• The outward call is to the whosoever – “many are called.”
• The internal call (effectual call) – “few are chosen.”

Arminianists can give lip-service to Romans 3:10-12 but it forbids their doctrine. They have no answer to it.

Rom 3:10 There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

According to your argument, there are many that are righteous, many that understand, many that seek after God and many that are good. That is because you infer that they possess traits outside of the Holy Spirit that Scripture does not give a dead, deaf, blind, fallen creature. You attribute capabilities to the flesh that do not exist. If someone is not born of the Spirit then they only have one nature. It is totally antagonistic to God.

1. The Bible says that the unsaved (who only have one nature – the flesh) are “ignorant” (Romans 10:3; 1 Corinthians 14:38; Ephesians 4:18; Hebrews 5:2; 2 Peter 3:5) of God and spiritual things.
2. The Bible says that prior to salvation man is a spiritual corpse that is “dead in … sins” (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13).
3. Prior to salvation man is spiritually “blind” (Matthew 13:13, 15-16; 2 Corinthians 4:4).
4. Prior to salvation man is spiritually “deaf” ((Psalm 58:4; Ezekiel 12:2; Matthew 13:13, 15-16).
5. Prior to salvation man is “by nature a child of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3).
6. The Bible says that “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14).
7. The Bible says that “they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them” (1 Corinthians 2:14).
8. The Bible says “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
9. Prior to salvation one is a spiritual “prisoner” of Satan (Isaiah 14:17, 42:6, 61:1).
10.Prior to salvation one is bound in “chains” of sin (Psalm 68:6, 107:8-16; Isaiah 61:1).
11.Outside of Christ there is “none that seeketh after God” (Romans 3:10).
12.Outside of Christ there is “none righteous” (Romans 3:10).
13.Outside of Christ there is “none that understandeth” (Isaiah 14:20; Romans 3:10).
14.Outside of Christ there is “none that doeth good” (Ecclesiastes 3:12; Romans 3:10).
15.Prior to salvation the unregenerate does not hear the words of Christ (John 8:43-44).
16.Prior to salvation the unregenerate is not able to come to Christ (John 6:44, 64-65).
17.Prior to salvation the unregenerate is not able to submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).
18.Prior to salvation the unregenerate is not able to please God (Romans 8:8).
19.Prior to salvation you were “alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works” (Colossians 1:21).
20.Outside of Christ your “old man” was “corrupt according to the deceitful lusts” (Ephesians 4:22).
21.Outside of Christ you were ‘vain in your imaginations, and your foolish heart was darkened’ (Romans 1:21).
22.Outside of Christ you were ‘walking in the vanity of your mind, Having your understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that was in you, because of the blindness of your heart” (Ephesians 4:17-19).
23. It says, “the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” (2 Corinthians 4:4).
24.Outside of Christ the Bible says “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9).
25.The Bible says that outside of Christ “I know nothing by myself” (1 Corinthians 4:4).
26.The unsaved “are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6).
27.The Bible says that outside of Christ man is “deceived” (Job 12:16, 15:21; Romans 7:11; 2 Timothy 3:13; Titus 3:3; Revelation 18:23, 20:10).

We are looking at man without God. We are looking at self here. We are looking at the flesh. We are looking at the real you, when you are not in the Spirit. Left to his own impulses the flesh will always run from God’s high and lofty demands.

If this is true, and it is, then we need help to effectively respond to the instruction of God.

There are a lot of people out there that may give you the impression that they are alive and kicking but I'm here to tell if they are outside of Christ then they are dead men walking.

Jesus explicitly states in John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you."

 

[WPM]

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

How do you reconcile a verse like this which says that God rewards those who earnestly seek Him with Romans 3:10 saying that none seek Him? If we didn't know any better we might think that was a contradiction. But, we know there are no contradictions in scripture.

The way I reconcile the two verses is that no one just naturally seeks God without any prompting or any revelation from God. However, once people do receive revelation from God by way of the preaching of His Word and of the gospel, along with inner promptings of the Holy Spirit, then they can choose to seek God or not. While the Holy Spirit is urging people to embrace the Word of God that they are hearing, it can be resisted. So, I completely disagree with the idea of "irresistible grace".

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

What were the religious Jews that Stephen was railing against resisting here? What was the Holy Spirit trying to get them to do that they were resisting? It seems clear to me that the Holy Spirit was trying to get them to repent and to believe the message that Stephen was giving them, which was God's word and the gospel. Scripture says God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Stephen clearly believed that those religious Jews could and should repent or else he wouldn't have been upset with them for resisting the Holy Spirit.


Even after God reaches out to him by way of the preaching of the gospel and speaking to his heart by way of the Holy Spirit? If that's what you're saying, then I disagree.


In Romans 1:18-32 Paul talks about people who "knew God" and understood "his eternal power and Godhead", but "became vain in their imaginations" and "became fools" who "exchanged the truth of God for a lie" by worshiping the creature more than the Creator with some of them exchanging natural sexual relations with the opposite sex for unnatural relations with the same sex. But, he said people have no excuse for any of that. How do you reconcile that with your view? Isn't it true in your view that everyone naturally becomes that way? If so, then why does Paul say they have no excuse for being that way? That doesn't line up. If they are naturally that way and can't help but be that way, as you seem to believe, then that seems like a good excuse for being that way. But, again, Paul says there is no excuse.

The Oxford Dictionary defines a gift as: "a thing given or received without payment." We can't purchase it, we can't earn it, we don't deserve it, we cannot work for it. We just receive it.

So what it that gift?

Romans 6:23 says: "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

There you have it! It is a gift, and that gift is eternal life.

Eternal life is a gift we receive in this life.

How long is "eternal"?

How long is "everlasting"?

God gives us the gift of faith to respond. It is not a quality or ability we possess. Salvation involves us responding to the effectual call of God. That voice is a quickening voice – it brings life to the dead.

Also, to know the reality of the existence of God is obvious. Men know He exists.

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world (or eternity) in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

The problem is not that. It is bowing the knee to Him. Men will not or cannot do that with His help.

Sorry bro. This is crystal clear in Scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Titus 2 is simply revealing the general call. That is it!

That's Calvinist mumbo jumbo. Making light of the call to salvation by just calling it a "general call"? That makes no sense. It's a sincere and genuine gracious offer of salvation that God makes to all people. Isn't that what we would expect of a God who commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), who wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), and who sent His Son to dies for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2).

Your quoting of the NIV here is troubling. That is normally done when someone knows a normal translation does not support their argument.

Don't go there. This is 100% false. Please tell me you are not a KJV-only person as if scripture was written in English.

That is just my observation.

It's a very wrong observation and completely baseless, in my opinion.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Please don’t miss the truth contained within this reading: it is “the grace of God that bringeth salvation,” not His wrath. That is all it is saying.

No, that is not all it is saying. I believe the NIV has it right because God offering salvation to all people fits with God wanting all people to repent and to be saved.

Men are without excuse. They willfully reject being rescued because that is their nature. They reject His offer of salvation because that is their nature.

This is contradictory. I don't know how you miss that. Please explain how someone can not have an excuse for rejecting God's offer of salvation if they can't help but reject it and can't possibly accept it, as you believe? That makes no sense whatsoever. If someone naturally rejects His offer and they can't do anything but reject His offer, then that would be a perfect excuse for them to reject His offer. Please think about this. You view on this defies all logic.

• The outward call is to the whosoever – “many are called.”
• The internal call (effectual call) – “few are chosen.”

More Calvinist man-made mumbo jumbo. Scripture teaches no such thing as an "outward call" and "internal call" as you understand it.

Arminianists can give lip-service to Romans 3:10-12 but it forbids their doctrine. They have no answer to it.

Maybe I'm not an Arminianist then because I did gave an answer for it, which you apparently ignored.

Rom 3:10 There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

According to your argument, there are many that are righteous, many that understand, many that seek after God and many that are good.

No. That is completely false. I'm used to having my views misrepresented by the many children on this forum, but I don't expect that from you. If you think that's what I believe, then please trust me that you are not understanding what I believe. At all. I've made it clear that God has to initiate the process by reaching out to people by way of the preaching of the gospel and speaking to people's hearts by way of the Holy Spirit. At that point, after having the light of God's word shined upon them, people are required to make a choice and respond. They can embrace it or they can resist it like the religious Jews that Jesus and Stephen rebuked.

I do NOT claim that anyone seeks after God before ever hearing the gospel or before the Holy Spirit speaks to them. But, scripture says that God rewards those who earnestly seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). What is your understanding of that? You can't just say "no one seeks God" and say that's the end of the story when other scripture says He rewards those who seek Him. So, what is your understanding of Hebrews 11:6-7?

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. 7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

This is from the NIV, so I hope you are okay with that. It doesn't say anything different than the KJV. I like to use both translations as well as a few others and I post the versions that I think best reflect what I believe the verses are saying. Anyway, please tell me your understanding of this passage. Why is faith pleasing to God if faith only comes about if He gives it to someone? And why does He reward those who earnestly seek Him?

That is because you infer that they possess traits outside of the Holy Spirit that Scripture does not give a dead, deaf, blind, fallen creature. You attribute capabilities to the flesh that do not exist. If someone is not born of the Spirit then they only have one nature. It is totally antagonistic to God.

You're not differentiating with someone's status before and after having the light of the gospel shine on them. I'm not talking about people's capabilities before that, I'm talking about their capabilities after that. So, you are completely misunderstanding what I believe and mostly just arguing with a straw man. You made a long list after this that I won't quote for the sake of saving space. I'll just say that I agree with most of it. The fact that you posted it as if I disagree with all of it says it all. It says that you're not even willing to consider what I believe and why. It's just "I'm right. You're wrong. End of story.".

Jesus explicitly states in John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you."

What was the point exactly that you were intending to make by posting this verse? Are you sure you're reading it in the correct context? Was He talking about choosing them to be saved or choosing them specifically to be His closest disciples? How does you interpretation of that verse line up with this where He was speaking to the same disciples as He was in John 15:16:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

God gives us the gift of faith to respond (Ephesians 2:8-10). It is not a quality or ability we possess.

I disagree with your interpretation of that passage, also. It does not say that saving faith is the gift of God, it says that the gift of God is salvation which is by grace through faith and not of ourselves, which means not of works. Seeing salvation as the gift of God rather than faith lines up with Romans 6:23 which says eternal life is the gift of God. Eternal life comes about by one putting their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior (John 3:16, Romans 10:9-12).

Sorry bro. This is crystal clear in Scripture. I do not believe there is any rebuttal.

I obviously disagree. I feel the same about my view. It's amazing that we can both be so confident in our views and yet we are far apart on this. So be it. Your mind is obviously made up if you think there isn't any rebuttal. In that case there's no point in continuing the discussion. We can still fellowship in our shared faith (regardless of how we think it comes about) and our shared views on end times doctrine.

 

[PinSeeker]

Titus 2 is simply revealing the general call.

Which... I've said, I think about a 184 times...

• The outward call is to the whosoever – “many are called.”
• The internal call (effectual call) – “few are chosen.”

Matthew 22:14. Pointed out that one, too....

Arminianists can give lip-service to Romans 3:10-12 but it forbids their doctrine. They have no answer to it.

Rom 3:10 There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

According to your argument, there are many that are righteous, many that understand, many that seek after God and many that are good. That is because you infer that they possess traits outside of the Holy Spirit that Scripture does not give a dead, deaf, blind, fallen creature. You attribute capabilities to the flesh that do not exist. If someone is not born of the Spirit then they only have one nature. It is totally antagonistic to God.

...

We are looking at man without God. We are looking at self here. We are looking at the flesh. We are looking at the real you, when you are not in the Spirit. Left to his own impulses the flesh will always run from God’s high and lofty demands.

If this is true, and it is, then we need help to effectively respond to the instruction of God.

There are a lot of people out there that may give you the impression that they are alive and kicking but I'm here to tell if they are outside of Christ then they are dead men walking.

Jesus explicitly states in John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you."

Noice! (That's 'nice' with an Australian accent...)

Men will not or cannot do that with His help.

Right, 'cannot' in the sense of 'will not' ~ not in the sense of literally being unable to kneel or submit, but being absolutely unwilling to kneel or submit, because of the nature of their being. Which, again, I've said many times.

That's Calvinist mumbo jumbo.

And there it is... It just is at odds with the Arminian narrative, that's all. It cannot with any credibility whatsoever be called "mumbo jumbo." Just on its face it makes perfect sense ~ which even Arminians tacitly admit... but just refuse to accept.

Making light of the call to salvation by just calling it a "general call"? That makes no sense.

Far be it from anyone to "make light" of it, SI; nobody is doing that at all.

This is 100% false...

Ah, for WPM it's false, but for me, it's lying... That's... curious...

Scripture teaches no such thing as an "outward call" and "internal call" as you understand it.

Well, it teaches that He calls all to believe and repentance, but it also teaches that he only calls some according to His purpose. So between the two, whether the terms 'outward' and 'internal' ('inward' is more correct) are used or not, it really matters not, but those two terms capture the two very well. We can also use 'general' and 'specific,' and probably a few other like contrasting terms as well, but the point is we have to distinguish between the two, because Scripture does.

Maybe I'm not an Arminianist then because I did gave an answer for it...

...which was very Arminian.

...by the many children on this forum...

It does not say that saving faith is the gift of God, it says that the gift of God is salvation which is by grace through faith and not of ourselves...

But you're separating faith back out from that very verse (Ephesians 2:8) and making man responsible for its coming to be in himself/herself rather than God... and thus making it into a work of man and not God... and thus even making himself or herself rather than God praiseworthy for it... which is absolutely antithetical to that verse. You say you are not doing that, and I absolutely believe that's not your intent, but that's exactly what you're doing. This is a creative act by God, SI, which Paul goes on to say in that we are "created for good works, that we should walk in them," as Paul explicitly says. And he says this same thing a bit differently in 2 Corinthians 5, where he says, "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation..." You will agree, I'm sure, that we do not ~ cannot ~ create ourselves.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



From the Tongue-Firmly-In-Cheek department: I got a mention from SI above, and that gets us up to seventy-eight... Oh, and I think an implicit reference in being termed a "child," so that's seventy-nine...


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We can still fellowship in our shared faith...

Absolutely! And that is a great joy; God has certainly given us all each other.

Grace and peace to you both!

 

[WPM]

Which... I've said, I think about a 184 times...




Noice! (That's 'nice' with an Australian accent...)


Right, 'cannot' in the sense of 'will not' ~ not in the sense of literally being unable to kneel or submit, but being absolutely unwilling to kneel or submit, because of the nature of their being. Which, again, I've said many times.


And there it is... It just is at odds with the Arminian narrative, that's all. It cannot with any credibility whatsoever be called "mumbo jumbo." Just on its face it makes perfect sense ~ which even Arminians tacitly admit... but just refuse to accept.


Far be it from anyone to "make light" of it, SI; nobody is doing that at all.


Ah, for WPM it's false, but for me, it's lying... That's... curious...


Well, it teaches that He calls all to believe and repentance, but it also teaches that he only calls some according to His purpose. So between the two, whether the terms 'outward' and 'internal' ('inward' is more correct) are used or not, it really matters not, but those two terms capture the two very well. We can also use 'general' and 'specific,' and probably a few other like contrasting terms as well, but the point is we have to distinguish between the two, because Scripture does.


...which was very Arminian.

But you're separating faith back out from that very verse (Ephesians 2:8) and making man responsible for its coming to be in himself/herself rather than God... and thus making it into a work of man and not God... and thus even making himself or herself rather than God praiseworthy for it... which is absolutely antithetical to that verse. You say you are not doing that, and I absolutely believe that's not your intent, but that's exactly what you're doing. This is a creative act by God, SI, which Paul goes on to say in that we are "created for good works, that we should walk in them," as Paul explicitly says. And he says this same thing a bit differently in 2 Corinthians 5, where he says, "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation..." You will agree, I'm sure, that we do not ~ cannot ~ create ourselves.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



From the Tongue-Firmly-In-Cheek department: I got a mention from SI above, and that gets us up to seventy-eight... Oh, and I think an implicit reference in being termed a "child," so that's seventy-nine...


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



Absolutely! And that is a great joy; God has certainly given us all each other.

Grace and peace to you both!

Is there any way you could respond separately? That is because we are arguing 2 different things. It is confusing for the reader.