OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[GracePeace]

The Question is...

What DEBT has Jesus paid for you... @GracePeace. ?

You're free to make your own thread where you decide the topic, but, no, that's not the question.

 

[GracePeace]

Bearing fruit means doing works.
You don't even believe in works salvation, which Jesus definitely believed in.

John says that the branches that do not BEAR FRUIT will be cut off, dried and burned.

Nothing in John 15 about salvation.
Try to listen to what Jesus is stating instead of putting your own words into it.

JESUS said that IF we DO NOT ABIDE IN HIM....
we will be cut off.

John 15:1-6
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Very simple words spoken by Jesus.
Now show us where in the above Jesus mentions anything about being born again or eternal salvation.
He is saying THE OPPOSITE of what you believe.

Abide is an on-going action.
We must ABIDE in JESUS so as not to be thrown away.

The UNSAVED are thrown away....those who DO NOT ABIDE in Jesus.
ABIDE.....
ongoing.

Lol he's actually argued "I don't need to abide to be saved, only to bear fruit"--meaning he regards being thrown into fire (for not bearing fruit) as a "saved" condition!

You couldn't make the stuff they believe up.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for your advice to read the NT simply, to get an understanding better than being spoon fed by men.

While that sounds reasonable, the truth is that it's an utterly foolish suggestion. It's extremely bad advice.

It's bad advice to read the New Testament??

A Roman Catholic Priest, told me the awful truth about private reading of the Bible. He said, "the worst thing the Vatican ever did was to release the Bible to the public. Because when the average men on the street got their hands on it they all came away with radically opposed different interpretations, and now we have 45,000 opposing Christian Denominations".

The bible was always available.
What do you mean THE VATICAN RELEASED THE BIBLE?
Who knows what this priest meant.
Did he mean that it's better to keep persons in the dark?
Did you give him a good reply to that notion?

BUT
Look.
It turns out he was RIGHT!!

Who knows anymore what Christians believe.
Seems like we all believe what we want to believe,
not necessarily what the NT teaches.

The Priest was absolutely right, putting the Bible into the hands of the average Joe, caused the Church to disintegrated into 45,000 pieces. It literally destroyed the Church. Nobody wants to face the fact that what the Priest said is the undeniable truth, but I respect him for his honesty.

No need to respect the priest....
we all know this to be true.

The sad truth is, everyone approaches the bible with their private expectation of what they want it to say and they make it say whatever they want it to say, just as you have perfectly demonstrated by denying everything God said in those verse and applying your private false narrative to Gods Word.

Right.
Trouble is: YOU are doing the same thing.

Not only that, but you're following the teaching of men that are teaching something that NEVER EXISTED in the church before
Luther and company.

You do what every Denomination does, you claim to posses the only true interpretation and you claim that the other 44,999 Denominations have it all wrong. Can you see how arrogant and foolish it is to take part in that madness

Here's what I find arrogant and foolish:

I gave you 3 verses if I remember correctly.
YOU had posted a couple to me which I exegeted for you.

Now, how about you do the same for the verses I gave to you?

Or are you here just to give us all your opinion?
Which no one is really interested in.

1. Please give us your understanding of Luke 15:24 and why Jesus used the word AGAIN.

2. What is the good news of the NT?

3. Why did Jesus Himself teach Matthew 7:24.29 where He tells us to TAKE ACTION.

Why would this teaching be necessary IF God is just going to do everything to get us saved in the end?

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol he's actually argued "I don't need to abide to be saved, only to bear fruit"--meaning he regards being thrown into fire (for not bearing fruit) as a "saved" condition!

You couldn't make the stuff they believe up.

I know what the other member believes and it's beyond heretical.
James 3:1 tells us to think twice before we teach anything because our judgment will be harsher.

I take this seriously and those that are preaching a different gospel should be concerned instead of throwing about ideas that are not biblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dumb Sheep like you and me, need to be frightened into submission. The parable was given to instill the fear of the Lord into us. Us dumb Sheep never do anything willingly, we always need the whip or the cattle prod to force us into submission.

There are many parables, which were given in figurative or metaphoric language. I can give you a list if you need it but I'm sure you're already ware of this fact.

The above is not for me....but,
I'm not a dumb sheep CS.
I'm a child of God.
The God that LOVES THE WHOLE WORLD...
The God that died for me so I could be saved through Him.
How great a love does God have for us that He died for us?

I do agree with you though,
you follow a fearful God...
One that does not fit the character of the God found in the bible.
You'll answer to this when the times comes....

In the meantime, yes, I'd like to see some parables that show us the hatred God has for His creatures
and how He uses FEAR to control us.

Please post the parables...
not your ramblings.
Thanks.

 

[GracePeace]

I believe in Jesus' Word. But I don't agree with your interpretation of it, because it would mean that God changes His mind and we know He never does.

No, if God sets contingencies, "If you do A, I will do B, but if you do C, then I will do D," that isn't Him "changing His mind", that's Him laying out contingencies. If afterward He did not honor His Word (not possible) about those scenarios, then you could complain He was "changing His mind".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How could we be sure what everlasting meant in the NT?
We cannot.

We have to take all scripture AS A WHOLE IDEA....
And if there's any question at all, it's good to go with the words of Jesus.

• Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46): Everlasting punishment-life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios-it must be admitted (1) that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25), where the Greek is "from aeonian times;" our version giving "since the world began." (Comp. 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:3) -strictly speaking, therefore, the word, as such, apart from its association with any qualifying substantive, implies a vast undefined duration, rather than one in the full sense of the word "infinite."​

source: Definitions-of-the-Greek-Words-Aion--Aionios-and-the-Hebrew-word-Olam - BEACON MINISTRIES.​

I could do that,

But how about this

Jesus said in john 3, 2 times,

Do this (believe or have faith)

You will NEVER PERISH (die) and you will have ETERNAL LIFE

so 2 times in this passage, he related eternal life to the fact we will never die. And this is in context with being born again, ie that which was dead in sin, is made alive...


But this is not the only place this happens.

It happens again in John 6.

Look at everything Jesus said in john 6.

1. We will NEVER hunger or thirst
2. We will NEVER DIE, we will LIVE FOREVER
3. We WILL be raised on the last day.
4. We have eternal life

so again, in context, eternal life is equal to the fact we will never die, we will live forever, not only this, but we will never hunger or thirst, and we will be raised by him personally, vs being delivered to him on judgment day (rev 20: 13)

so I must again question why you thought you had to go outside the word to see what may or may not have been said? In context. in these two passages, everlasting or eternal means what it says eternal. It does not mean anything less that this. Just because a word may be interpreted a different way does not mean it has to. Look at context.. Context destroys any thinking it may not actually mean forever. That is unless never does not mean never and forever does not mean forever etc etc

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How do y ou know Jesus resurrected?
Were you there?
WHY do you believe He was resurrected?
Did you dream it?
Did you watch a movie?

Because the BIBLE tells me it was, you know. the word that says it is inspired by God?

HOW?
I'll tell y ou how EG.
Because THE APOSTLES told you so
and you're trusting the Apostles with your very soul.

THE BIBLE TOLD ME SO.

The apostles spoke or were inspired what to write.

I can trust the bible. I can not trust anyone outside the bible. don;t try to do what the catholics and jews both did and try to equate words of men not inspired by God as equal to the bible.

So, you see, you are trusting men.
And what they wrote.

No, I am trusting God. that when he said his word was inspired and we can trust it, that God put his word together and it can be trusted.

Which was chosen for you by the ECFs...
whether you wish to admit it or not.

Peter called Pauls words scripture.

so no, I do not agree the RCC put the word together. the buble was complete long before the RCC was even formed..

See above.
The Word of God was preserved by the very church you distrust.

See. You put to much faith in men, why will you not give God credit?

PS, the word they entrusted, its not even the same word I use as my bible.. so they kept it?? lol

The very Word of God that you speak of was taught to others by the Apostles.
How do you think the gospel was spread from country to country?
What were Paul's missionary journeys all about?

Yes, that word was. But read the word. At the end, there were so many false gospels and false prophets. God even had to scold many churches.. and you want me to just trust some man who came after because he called himself part of the church> Thank you but no thank you. I will trust the word of God. INSPIRED WORD.

You mean God left heaven, came here to earth, got a piece of paper and a pen, and began to write down the NT?

Do you know what the wor4d inspired means (it literally means God breathed)

2 Tim 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Does it say here I need other words of other men to become more complete? Does it say I need to listen to men to be complete? Or does it say all scripture was inspired (literally God breathed) and this word I hold in my hands is able to make me complete> lacking for nothing?

I'm afraid, EG, that you're going to have to trust THE MEN that wrote the NT.

I trust God who spoke through them

Some of whom we don't even know who they are.
Who wrote Hebrews?
No one knows for sure.
So do you NOT read it?

Do I trust God that he wrote it? Of course I do. because I have no reason not to.

One way to test the word is that no part of it contradicts another part. and that it is also taught or consistent with the rest of scripture. That is why a few of the catholic books are rejected, because they do not fit these two requirements.

You're in a teaching position in your church.
You're A MAN teaching other men.
Should they not trust you because you're not God?

No. They should test what I say, and confirm it is from God. I am but a mere man, My opinions and believe (which could be in error) may get in my teaching.. no one should blindly follow me or anyone.

You're teaching them from something written.

Inspired

Should they trust you as much as someone that was taught by John or Peter or Paul?

Paul said the bereans were more noble because they did not blindly trust him, but tested what he said, am I better than Paul?

Should they trust you more?
Less?

Trust the word. Test my words. Does my words line up with what the word says..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Bearing fruit means doing works.

Yes, We have been through this 100 times, true believers WILL do good works.

You don't even believe in works salvation, which Jesus definitely believed in.

No he did not..

John says that the branches that do not BEAR FRUIT will be cut off, dried and burned.

Yes, why do they not produce fruit, they were not saved.

Once again, GODS CHILDREN DO GOOD WORKS.. Maybe not the same amount, But they works.

Again, Paul was confident God who began a good work would complete it. Why do you not trust this fact? Why do you think God will fail?

Nothing in John 15 about salvation.
Try to listen to what Jesus is stating instead of putting your own words into it.

I did, Try listening to context. and then try listen to eveything else Jesus said, then maybe you will not have jesus contraidcting himself like you do

JESUS said that IF we DO NOT ABIDE IN HIM....
we will be cut off.

John 15:1-6
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Very simple words spoken by Jesus.
Now show us where in the above Jesus mentions anything about being born again or eternal salvation.
He is saying THE OPPOSITE of what you believe.

No he is not. because he is not talking about salvation, He did that in John 1, John 3, John 4, JOhn 5, John 6 John 7. And in every case he spoke the same

Ask, and he will give us living water flowing to eternal life
Believe by looking to him, and you will never die, but live forever
See and believe, and you will pass from death to life, and will not come to judgment


Why do you continue to insist you can save yourself. why do you continue to insist God will take one work you do as payment for sin? Why do you refuse to see on your best day, you are still so far below Gods requirement to save yourself. so you would stop looking to self and start looking to God

Abide is an on-going action.
We must ABIDE in JESUS so as not to be thrown away.

Yes, If we want to produce fruit, We must abide in christ.

The UNSAVED are thrown away....those who DO NOT ABIDE in Jesus.
ABIDE.....
ongoing.

Yes, THEY WERE NEVER SAVED.

THEY NEVER HAD FAITH

Thats why God did not complete the work. Not because he failed. THEY FAILED..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course.
IF Io ABIDE in Jesus I will be saved.

Your being confident in yourself not in Christ.

Right now I can know I'm saved because I'M ABIDING in Jesus.

You You You

Where is HE HE HE

Your confident in what you are doing, Not what He did.

can you see the difference?

When I got saved, I did not lose my free will.

Never said you did, again we have been through this.

This is never addressed by anyone.
Care to give it a try?

Give it a try.

Come one, I have addressed this to you multiple times. Did you forget already?

EARN
ABIDE
TRUST
BELIEVE
MERIT

Well, we won't agree on this.
Jesus said we must bear fruit,
He said we must abide...

I disagree

I will abide, I will bear fruit. not all the time, Not eve enough to earn salvation, But I will.

I tend to obey Jesus.

I do to.

However, I think we do it for different reasons.

 

[GracePeace]

I believe in Jesus' Word. But I don't agree with your interpretation of it, because it would mean that God changes His mind and we know He never does.

No, if God sets contingencies, "If you do A, I will do B, but if you do C, then I will do D," that isn't Him "changing His mind", that's Him laying out contingencies. If afterward He did not honor His Word (not possible) about those scenarios, then you could complain He was "changing His mind".

Jeremiah 18
5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6“Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said [a]that I would bless it.

God "relenting" (of either bringing disaster He planned on, or of bringing good He planned) is not God "changing His mind"; that's just God being faithful to do what He said He would do DEPENDING ON HOW SOMEONE BEHAVES, which conditions He had already set out beforehand. Obviously.
If, on the other hand, God scrapped those terms and conditions. and brought disaster or blessing randomly--which cannot happen, because God never set that as the terms and conditions, because He is just--then that would be God "changing His mind" from the terms and conditions.

In this case, the terms and conditions would be that if you forgive, just as He forgave you, which is a reasonable response to His goodness, then you, too, will remain forgiven, but if you do not forgive, which is an unreasonable response to His goodness, then He will rescind His forgiveness to you.

That is not God changing His mind, that is God setting out His terms and conditions : be reasonable, glorify the Lord by showing others how He treated you--"as I have loved you, so love one another".

 

[Christian Soldier]

The text is unambiguous. "I forgave you".

What makes it difficult for you is not mysterious--you have theological pre-commitments.

If your views are challenged by what is plainly stated, is that my fault?

It's a story, and Jesus tells us what it means, so we don't have to guess : "So will My Father do to you".
Parables, allegories, and types don't have to 100% match, detail for detail, to carry their message--eg, the Bronze Serpent was destroyed because people worshipped it. Is Jesus letting us know He is going to be destroyed because people are worshipping Him, or were there only a limited number of aspects of the Bronze Serpent He meant to say spoke of Him?

Again, we know what the parable refers to : so will My Father do to you if you do not forgive your brother from the heart.

It's not mysterious.

Irrespectively, the servant was forgiven--a fact you have actually gone about to suppress in order to preserve your tradition above the plain text.

Forgiveness in this parable doesn't refer to forgiveness of sin, so it's not dealing with salvation. It's dealing with forgiving a money loan, so we shouldn't assume that the man in question was a born again believer.
Let's just deal with what the parable does say, let's not add our own presumptions to it.

So all we have is a man being forgiven a money debt and the lender finds out that the man didn't forgive another worker a small debt, so he charged him and he was sentenced to do hard labor, until his debt was fully paid off.

We're not going to achieve anything good by making too much of this parable. It's a simple story which explains itself, it doesn't say anything about being saved or unsaved.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I agree. But by the same token, we ought not use the word "justice" with its human connotations and meaning to describe what you rightly point out we cannot understand.

We can say God is just because He has revealed that fact to us, but we don't know the extent of justice. We fall way short of understanding how just He actually is.

Some have a problem with the fact that God punished His Son to pay for the sins of His enemies. A good man may give his life for his friend, but it's beyond us to give our life for an enemy of ours.

 

[GracePeace]

Forgiveness in this parable doesn't refer to forgiveness of sin, so it's not dealing with salvation. It's dealing with forgiving a money loan, so we shouldn't assume that the man in question was a born again believer.
Let's just deal with what the parable does say, let's not add our own presumptions to it.

So all we have is a man being forgiven a money debt and the lender finds out that the man didn't forgive another worker a small debt, so he charged him and he was sentenced to do hard labor, until his debt was fully paid off.

Nah. Again, as if you need to be told, parables teach spiritual truths using earthly imagery : the "debt" refers to what we owe God on account of our sins, and Jesus says "so will My Father do to you if you do not forgive your brother from the heart", so it has practical application to our spiritual lives.

We're not going to achieve anything good by making too much of this parable. It's a simple story which explains itself, it doesn't say anything about being saved or unsaved.

I think you mean that this parable does not accord with your "system", or "tradition", so you'd rather not think about it too much. I don't blame you. It certainly does not help you.

 

[Christian Soldier]

It's bad advice to read the New Testament??



The bible was always available.
What do you mean THE VATICAN RELEASED THE BIBLE?
Who knows what this priest meant.
Did he mean that it's better to keep persons in the dark?
Did you give him a good reply to that notion?

BUT
Look.
It turns out he was RIGHT!!

Who knows anymore what Christians believe.
Seems like we all believe what we want to believe,
not necessarily what the NT teaches.



No need to respect the priest....
we all know this to be true.



Right.
Trouble is: YOU are doing the same thing.

Not only that, but you're following the teaching of men that are teaching something that NEVER EXISTED in the church before
Luther and company.


Here's what I find arrogant and foolish:

I gave you 3 verses if I remember correctly.
YOU had posted a couple to me which I exegeted for you.

Now, how about you do the same for the verses I gave to you?

Or are you here just to give us all your opinion?
Which no one is really interested in.

1. Please give us your understanding of Luke 15:24 and why Jesus used the word AGAIN.

2. What is the good news of the NT?

3. Why did Jesus Himself teach Matthew 7:24.29 where He tells us to TAKE ACTION.

Why would this teaching be necessary IF God is just going to do everything to get us saved in the end?

1. Luke 15:24 "Again" the father of the man used the word "Again" because from his human perspective, his son died and came back to life. Did he die "NO NO NO" did he come back to life "NO NO NO".
A parable uses metaphoric language, you problem is you're taking it literally and getting yourself all confused.

2. The good news of the NT is, God is not going to cast all of humanity into the lake of fire as we deserve. But He will save a small number for Himself as a trophy. He chose to save His Elect before He created the world. He wrote our names in His book. That's the best news I've ever heard so I call it "Good news".

3. In Matt 7:24-29 Jesus was speaking about the two kinds of people (wise man, Gods elect) and (a fool, Devils Child). There are only two kinds of people, Gods Children and the Devils Children. You show me were a third type is found and I will bow down and worship you.
Jesus never instructed anyone to take any action, you made that lie up to push your false denominational view.

There was no teaching to speak of, tell me where this teaching is that you extrapolated from Matt 7:24-29 there is no instruction or comandment or teaching in any of what He said. It was a simple observation of the two inds of people iun te world. He never instructed the fools (Devils children) to follow him and He never said that His Children would follow the Devil.

So you have tried to make Jesus say something He never said, because you added your wisdom over His an that's highly disrespectful of you.

 

[GracePeace]

So you have tried to make Jesus say something He never said, because you added your wisdom over His an that's highly disrespectful of you.

You, to preserve your view (instead of rethinking your view around the parable), tried denying forgiveness had taken place before being rescinded, in the parable we've been discussing.

Is that what we should learn is how you show respect for God's Word?

 

[th1b.taylor]

The guy was saved in the parable.

You are reading into the text what is not there.

 

[Christian Soldier]

The above is not for me....but,
I'm not a dumb sheep CS.
I'm a child of God.
The God that LOVES THE WHOLE WORLD...
The God that died for me so I could be saved through Him.
How great a love does God have for us that He died for us?

I do agree with you though,
you follow a fearful God...
One that does not fit the character of the God found in the bible.
You'll answer to this when the times comes....

In the meantime, yes, I'd like to see some parables that show us the hatred God has for His creatures
and how He uses FEAR to control us.

Please post the parables...
not your ramblings.
Thanks.

Jesus said "My Sheep hear my voice" so you don't hear His voice because you're not a Sheep. Ok thanks for letting me know, that your not a Sheep, it means you must be a Goat. Jesus said there are only two kinds of people, Sheep and Goats.

I'm not sure if your school ever taught you the fact that Sheep are dumb, I'm just letting you know it's a fact as it seems you don't know this simple fact.

I don't know which god your talking about, saying you're a child of god. And that your god loves the whole world , as my God doesn't love the whole world so we don't believe in the same God. My bible doesn't say that God loves the whole world, so I don't know which book you're reading but it's not the Holy Bible.

My bible doesn't speak of any god who died me for me so I could be saved through him. I don't know who your god died for, you say "us" but that doesn't tell me anything about who your "us" is.

I don't follow a fearful god, my God has no fear of anyone or anything. So the opposite is true, I fear my God but He's not fearful of anything. The God of the Holy Bible commands His children to fear Him, if we don't then we were never His children to begin with.

It feels like I'm teaching a child, the basic facts about God. Don't you even know about the terror of God, don't you know that He casts those who don't know Him into the lake of fire while they beg for mercy.

Please read the whole of Matthew 25:14-30 the parable of the talents. It shows how we must fear God and it shows His hatred of those who don't. The last verse speaks of God casting the man who didn't fear God enough, into hell to be tormented forever. Just because He didn't fear God, enough to do what he knew God wanted him to do.

Matt. 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[GracePeace]

You are reading into the text what is not there.

Oh, really?
Any text you read to come to any conclusion you make is being misread, then.

What part of what I have said is a misunderstanding? Prove I have misunderstood.

 

[GracePeace]

Please read the whole of Matthew 25:14-30 the parable of the talents. It shows how we must fear God and it shows His hatred of those who don't. The last verse speaks of God casting the man who didn't fear God enough, into hell to be tormented forever. Just because He didn't fear God, enough to do what he knew God wanted him to do.

Matt. 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

This parable doesn't help your position : the Lord had lent the servant a talent of his own money, expecting an in-kind harvest, and, because the servant did not act in faith, but was "wicked", what had been deposited to him (a measure of faith) was stripped from him, so that he never had faith (hence, "they went out from us to prove they were never of us" : God can forget righteousness according to Ezekiel 18:24)--just as forgiveness, which is by faith, was rescinded in Matthew 18, because the servant was "wicked" and did not yield an in-kind harvest (ie, forgiveness).