OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[face2face]

Again I challenge any one who posted in this thread if you truly believe you understand Bible doctrines and its interpretations.
Yes, at times I might not make sense since English is my second language. However; it does not hurt to ask me (or anyone for that matter) if what you understood from my writing is what I really said.

Once again I put my question to @face2face and to any one which I posted in post #790, "How many sins of the individuals did Jesus redeem when He went to the cross?"

ALL of course!! If Jesus had not paid for one sin of an individual, he had to pay for that sin BECAUSE the "wages of sin (singular) is death." If Jesus did Not pay for one sin of that individual he will die.

So I ask, "What sin can that individual commit that will bring him to hell?" N-O-N-E, Z-l-L-C-H, N-A-D-A.

Therefore, Once Saved Always Saved!!!

It doesn't take a rocket scientist if one knows Bible doctrines and its interpretations.

To God Be The Glory

Do you feel good about yourself Jun? Like you have proven some earth shattering point? Thanks for your very late contribution to a thread which was done and dusted pages ago.

F2F

 

[JunChosen]

Incorrect--don't even attempt to correct my post.

What an arrogant and audacious person you've become!!

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Yes, salvation is bought and paid for by God, but it is offered to all and received by faith. Scripture teaches that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, but this choice is made manifest through faith in Jesus Christ. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV). "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" (Romans 3:10-11 KJV). Jesus said, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16 KJV). Salvation is available to all who believe: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13 KJV).

I've given the passages above in my other posts or are you trying to impress me that you know Greek? Only the elect and chosen WILL call upon the name of the Lord.

John 3:16
Greek: Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Transliteration: Hoútōs gàr ēgápēsen ho Theòs tòn kósmos, hṓste tòn Huión tòn monogenḗ édōken, hína pās ho pisteúōn eis autòn mē ápólētai all' échēi zōḗn aiṓnion.
English: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the world but is also the most least understood!! To understand the verse the word "whosoever" must be qualified and only those whom the Father elected/chosen in eternity past and before the foundation of the world are qualified. Isn't the Bible consistent?

1 Timothy 2:3-4
Greek: Τοῦτο καλὸν καὶ ἀπόδεκτον ἐνώπιον τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Θεοῦ, ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
Transliteration: Toûto kalòn kaì apódekton enṓpion toû sōtêros hēmôn Theoû, hòs pántas anthrṓpous thélei sōthênai kaì eis epígnōsin alētheías eltheîn.
English: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

If Jesus wanted to save mankind He could. as He is all powerful. However we know that "many are called but few are chosen."

2 Peter 3:9
Greek: Οὐ βραδύνει κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ἡμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενος τινὰς ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.
Transliteration: Ou bradúnei kýrios tēs epangelías, hṓs tines bradýtēta ēgoûntai, allà makrothumeî eis hēmâs, mḕ boulómenos tinàs apolésthai allà pántas eis metánoian chorêsai.
English: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Yes! The Bible states that Jesus declared: "All that the Father giveth me will come to me and I will lose none of them." (paraphrased)

Titus 2:11
Greek: Ἐπεφάνη γὰρ ἡ χάρις τοῦ Θεοῦ σωτήριος πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις.
Transliteration: Epephánē gàr hē cháris toû Theoû sōtḗrios pâsin anthrṓpois.
English: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

In the Old Testament, we read that Noah and his family found grace with God.

These verses collectively show that the New Testament presents salvation as available to all people, emphasizing God's desire for everyone to come to repentance and faith.

Again I must emphasize that salvation is available only to those whom God elected and chosen in eternity past before the foundation of the world.

Many professing Christians think otherwise, but this is so. If God wanted to save everyone He could have, for there is nothing that is difficult for Him!!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What an arrogant and audacious person you've become!!

I've given the passages above in my other posts or are you trying to impress me that you know Greek? Only the elect and chosen WILL call upon the name of the Lord.

John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the world but is also the most least understood!! To understand the verse the word "whosoever" must be qualified and only those whom the Father elected/chosen in eternity past and before the foundation of the world are qualified. Isn't the Bible consistent?

If Jesus wanted to save mankind He could. as He is all powerful. However we know that "many are called but few are chosen."

Yes! The Bible states that Jesus declared: "All that the Father giveth me will come to me and I will lose none of them." (paraphrased)

In the Old Testament, we read that Noah and his family found grace with God.

Again I must emphasize that salvation is available only to those whom God elected and chosen in eternity past before the foundation of the world.

Many professing Christians think otherwise, but this is so. If God wanted to save everyone He could have, for there is nothing that is difficult for Him!!

To God Be The Glory

Whosoever means what it means

he died for the world. That whosoever (in that world) believes..

He also said he was not sent to judge the world. But that the world might be saved.

Calvinistic heresy is apposed to Gods love and his reputation

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you even understand the meaning of the word "unpardonable"???

yes, it means it can not be pardoned or forgiven

the people commited the sin there by claiming jesus did his miracles in the power of satan, not the HS.

Yet jesus said they were in danger of commiting the sin,’

why?

Because everyone who is born have rejected God. They have until they die to repent. And if they do. They will not have blasphemed the spirit. They would have recieved him

No one has committed the unpardonable sin in this day and age. YOU said, if they did they will still have hope and are not lost, as you claim.

its true, They will be lost.

And you’re wrong, people do it every day.

We read in Matthew 12:31-32: READ and WEEP...

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Yep. Speaks a word against the HS. What do you think happens when one rejects the gospel? They speak a word against the HS.

The HS is sent to give us the gospel. And to convict us, if we reject him, we are doing the very thing God said will never be forgiven

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, "He (Jesus) hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casts he out devils." (Mk 3:22).

To God Be The Glory

Yep

No different than someone saying water baptism replaces HS baptism in salvation

or those who say we are saved by the law. Not by Grace

or those who say we are saved by religion, not grace

or those who say God will not punish them, god is a loving God

or those who say God does not exist..

they all do the very same thing, and if they do not repent before they die. The will rot in hell for that rejection

 

[GodsGrace]

What an arrogant and audacious person you've become!!

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

You never replied to a post of mine.
No matter.

I've given the passages above in my other posts or are you trying to impress me that you know Greek? Only the elect and chosen WILL call upon the name of the Lord.

HOW are the elect chosen?
Could you please post some verses that show that God CHOSE WHO WILL BE SAVED and WHO WILL BE LOST?

John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the world but is also the most least understood!! To understand the verse the word "whosoever" must be qualified and only those whom the Father elected/chosen in eternity past and before the foundation of the world are qualified. Isn't the Bible consistent?

The only way the reformed can explain scripture is to CHANGE and TWIST what it means.
WHOEVER means WHOEVER.

John 3:17 states that God sent Jesus to save THE WORLD....NOT just those that are "chosen".
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

This means that WHOEVER in THE WORLD comes to believe in Jesus --- he will be saved.
And HOW does one come to be saved?
Acts 16:31
BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.

The above is A COMMAND.
BELIEVE....and you WILL BE saved.

The bible is very consitant.
It's the reformed that are not and so need to change the meaning of scripture.

If Jesus wanted to save mankind He could. as He is all powerful. However we know that "many are called but few are chosen."

There are conditions to being saved.
The condition is that WE ARE TO BELIEVE in Jesus AND OBEY HIM.

Not everyone is willing to do this.
Yes, another problem ---- you don't believe in free will.
And from there all scripture is twisted and made to suit the needs of the non free will believers.

Yes! The Bible states that Jesus declared: "All that the Father giveth me will come to me and I will lose none of them." (paraphrased)

Jesus will lose no one.
BUT A PERSON IF FREE TO ABANDON JESUS.

THE PERSON abandons Jesus.
JESUS abandons no one.

Some more twisting to get to Perseverance of the Saints.

In the Old Testament, we read that Noah and his family found grace with God.

Again I must emphasize that salvation is available only to those whom God elected and chosen in eternity past before the foundation of the world.

Many professing Christians think otherwise, but this is so. If God wanted to save everyone He could have, for there is nothing that is difficult for Him!!

To God Be The Glory

Scripture please.
Thanks.

 

[Johann]

What an arrogant and audacious person you've become!!

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Aren't we all when there is disagreements?

I've given the passages above in my other posts or are you trying to impress me that you know Greek? Only the elect and chosen WILL call upon the name of the Lord.

Give me your understanding of the chosen ans elect and what make you so sure you are part of the elect?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You never replied to a post of mine.
No matter.



HOW are the elect chosen?
Could you please post some verses that show that God CHOSE WHO WILL BE SAVED and WHO WILL BE LOST?



The only way the reformed can explain scripture is to CHANGE and TWIST what it means.
WHOEVER means WHOEVER.

John 3:17 states that God sent Jesus to save THE WORLD....NOT just those that are "chosen".
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

This means that WHOEVER in THE WORLD comes to believe in Jesus --- he will be saved.
And HOW does one come to be saved?
Acts 16:31
BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.

The above is A COMMAND.
BELIEVE....and you WILL BE saved.

The bible is very consitant.
It's the reformed that are not and so need to change the meaning of scripture.



There are conditions to being saved.
The condition is that WE ARE TO BELIEVE in Jesus AND OBEY HIM.

Not everyone is willing to do this.
Yes, another problem ---- you don't believe in free will.
And from there all scripture is twisted and made to suit the needs of the non free will believers.


Jesus will lose no one.
BUT A PERSON IF FREE TO ABANDON JESUS.

THE PERSON abandons Jesus.
JESUS abandons no one.

Some more twisting to get to Perseverance of the Saints.


Scripture please.
Thanks.

sadly, their pride is deep..

 

[Johann]

HOW are the elect chosen?
Could you please post some verses that show that God CHOSE WHO WILL BE SAVED and WHO WILL BE LOST?

John 15:16 - “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”

Romans 8:29-30 - “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

Ephesians 1:4-5 - “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.”

1 Peter 2:9 - “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.”

Greek and Hebrew Grammar and Morphology
ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) - Greek for “chosen” or “elect.” This term is used in the New Testament to describe those who are chosen by God. For example, in Matthew 24:22, "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect (ἐκλεκτοί) those days will be cut short"1.

בָּחַר (bachar) - Hebrew for “choose” or “elect.” This term is used in the Old Testament. For example, in Deuteronomy 7:6, “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen (בָּחַר) you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.”

Jacob and Esau:
Romans 9:11-13 - “Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ Just as it is written: ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’”
This passage highlights God’s sovereign choice between Jacob and Esau, emphasizing that it was based on His purpose and not their actions.

Pharaoh:
Romans 9:17-18 - “For Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”
Here, God chose to harden Pharaoh’s heart to demonstrate His power and fulfill His purposes.

Israel and Other Nations:
Deuteronomy 7:6-8 - “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.”
God chose Israel as His special people, setting them apart from other nations.

Saul and David:
1 Samuel 16:1 - “The Lord said to Samuel, ‘How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.’”
God rejected Saul as king and chose David to replace him.

Jesus’ Disciples:
John 15:16 - “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”
Jesus chose His disciples for a specific purpose.

We can't deny that the doctrine of election is scriptural depends through what lenses we read it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

John 15:16 - “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”

Romans 8:29-30 - “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

Ephesians 1:4-5 - “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.”

1 Peter 2:9 - “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.”

Greek and Hebrew Grammar and Morphology
ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) - Greek for “chosen” or “elect.” This term is used in the New Testament to describe those who are chosen by God. For example, in Matthew 24:22, "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect (ἐκλεκτοί) those days will be cut short"1.

בָּחַר (bachar) - Hebrew for “choose” or “elect.” This term is used in the Old Testament. For example, in Deuteronomy 7:6, “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen (בָּחַר) you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.”

Jacob and Esau:
Romans 9:11-13 - “Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ Just as it is written: ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’”
This passage highlights God’s sovereign choice between Jacob and Esau, emphasizing that it was based on His purpose and not their actions.

Pharaoh:
Romans 9:17-18 - “For Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”
Here, God chose to harden Pharaoh’s heart to demonstrate His power and fulfill His purposes.

Israel and Other Nations:
Deuteronomy 7:6-8 - “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.”
God chose Israel as His special people, setting them apart from other nations.

Saul and David:
1 Samuel 16:1 - “The Lord said to Samuel, ‘How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.’”
God rejected Saul as king and chose David to replace him.

Jesus’ Disciples:
John 15:16 - “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”
Jesus chose His disciples for a specific purpose.

We can't deny that the doctrine of election is scriptural depends through what lenses we read it.

we MUST remember though

in the context of those examples. The Calvinist view is not confirmed in them..

God chose Jonah to go talk to Nineveh, but when we read the story. God did not over rule Jonah's free will.. God had to do some convincing, to lead him along the way, even road block him, and threaten his death.

But Jonah still had to chose.

 

[Johann]

we MUST remember though

in the context of those examples. The Calvinist view is not confirmed in them..

God chose Jonah to go talk to Nineveh, but when we read the story. God did not over rule Jonah's free will.. God had to do some convincing, to lead him along the way, even road block him, and threaten his death.

But Jonah still had to chose.

I am not denying the concept of freewill nor the doctrine of election-it was not Calvin who invented election or Arminius but Scripture is replete with God's sovereign choice in election and that you can't deny @Eternally Grateful.

God’s Sovereignty and Jonah’s Free Will: In the story, God commands Jonah to go to Nineveh and preach against its wickedness. Jonah initially resists, attempting to flee to Tarshish instead.

This resistance shows Jonah exercising his free will, despite God’s command.

God’s Intervention: Despite Jonah’s attempt to escape, God intervenes by sending a storm and a great fish to swallow Jonah2. These actions demonstrate God’s control and his ability to guide events according to his will, even when Jonah resists.

Convincing Jonah: God doesn’t override Jonah’s free will but rather persuades him through a series of events. Jonah’s time in the belly of the fish leads him to pray and repent, ultimately agreeing to go to Nineveh.

Outcome in Nineveh: When Jonah finally goes to Nineveh and delivers God’s message, the people repent, and God spares the city1. This outcome aligns with God’s merciful nature, which Jonah knew and initially resisted because he didn’t want Nineveh to be forgiven.

In summary, the story illustrates a balance between God’s sovereignty and human free will. God orchestrates events to fulfill his purposes, but he does so in a way that respects human agency. This can be seen as a nuanced view that doesn’t fully align with strict Calvinist predestination, where God’s will is seen as overriding human choices completely.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not denying the concept of freewill nor the doctrine of election-it was not Calvin who invented election or Arminius but Scripture is replete with God's sovereign choice in election and that you can't deny @Eternally Grateful.

God’s Sovereignty and Jonah’s Free Will: In the story, God commands Jonah to go to Nineveh and preach against its wickedness. Jonah initially resists, attempting to flee to Tarshish instead.

This resistance shows Jonah exercising his free will, despite God’s command.

God’s Intervention: Despite Jonah’s attempt to escape, God intervenes by sending a storm and a great fish to swallow Jonah2. These actions demonstrate God’s control and his ability to guide events according to his will, even when Jonah resists.

Convincing Jonah: God doesn’t override Jonah’s free will but rather persuades him through a series of events. Jonah’s time in the belly of the fish leads him to pray and repent, ultimately agreeing to go to Nineveh.

Outcome in Nineveh: When Jonah finally goes to Nineveh and delivers God’s message, the people repent, and God spares the city1. This outcome aligns with God’s merciful nature, which Jonah knew and initially resisted because he didn’t want Nineveh to be forgiven.

In summary, the story illustrates a balance between God’s sovereignty and human free will. God orchestrates events to fulfill his purposes, but he does so in a way that respects human agency. This can be seen as a nuanced view that doesn’t fully align with strict Calvinist predestination, where God’s will is seen as overriding human choices completely.

One problem

Jonah could have said no and died in the fish. and we would never have heard his story. God would have then God someone else.

Gods sovereignty never overrules a persons free will..

In fact. In the gospel. God willingly sets aside his sovereignty, and gives everyone a choice.

Here I offer you my grace. receive it and live, or deny it and die.

Like Jonah, if they took the leading and drawing of God and reacted and do what God commands, They will live

If they continue to resist to the point of death, they will die (eternally)

 

[ReChoired]

A little funny time:

OSAS Believer - I was once in unbelief but now I believe.

OSAS Denier - So you did not always believe?

OSAS Believer - No, I was once in unbelief, and my unbelief changed into belief, and now I am always saved and cannot be lost again, I cannot ever disbelieve once I am in belief.

OSAS Denier - I see, so your unbelief became belief?

OSAS Believer - Yes.

OSAS Denier - But you believe that belief cannot ever be changed to unbelief again?

OSAS Believer - Correct.

OSAS Denier - What about those persons who once believed as you (OSAS Believer) now do, but now are in unbelief?

OSAS Believer - They never actually believed.

OSAS Denier - Their unbelief never changed to belief?

OSAS Believer - That's correct.

OSAS Denier - What about the angels that sinned by disbelief but had begun in belief, or of Adam who began in belief but came to be in unbelief?

OSAS Believer - We are talking about salvation, not the original state of the angels or mankind.

OSAS Denier - No, we were talking about belief and unbelief and the fluidity or fixidity of the two states. So, the question if you please.

OSAS Believer - Belief cannot ever change into unbelief once a person believes from unbelief.

OSAS Denier - Why?

OSAS Beleiver - That's just the way it is.

OSAS Denier - It's a one way street? That belief may become unbelief, back to belief, but unbelief cannot become belief and go back to unbelief?

OSAS Believer - Correct.

OSAS Denier - How do you know those who once believed as the angels and Adam, which became unbelievers, were in a state of belief to begin with, since you say that those who claim the same now as once in belief, but now are in unbelief never were in belief to begin with?

OSAS Believer - SYNTAX ERROR ...

OSAS Denier - Ok, calm down, no worries, let me try another approach.

OSAS Believer - Rebooting ... loading ...

OSAS Denier - You stated that you were once in a state of unbelief, but now believe, and you believe that belief cannot ever become unbelief again, correct?

OSAS Believer - Correct.

OSAS Denier - How do you know that your belief in belief from out of unbelief cannot change to unbelief in belief from out of unbelief back to unbelief and be in the OSAS Denier position? Since that is not dealing with salvation, but the belief in the belief itself?

OSAS Believer - *sparks*, *smoke rising*, *whirly noises*, *logic loop* - finds only logic way out - I now beleive in the belief, though was once in unbelief in the belief, and belief in the belief cannot change back to unbelief in the belief once out of unbelief of the unbelief.

OSAS Denier - I see. Did the angels or mankind believe in the belief that belief cannot become unbelief in their original state of belief?

OSAS Believer - They must not have believed that belief cannot become unbelief, otherwise they could not have entered a state of unbelief from their state of belief if they had believed in the belief.

OSAS Denier - So, isn't salvation about returning to the original state of belief, from unbelief?

OSAS Believer - Yes.

OSAS Denier - You do not see the contradiction in your logic about the belief, and the belief of the belief?

OSAS Believer - Looks back at logic argument. *bluescreen*, *collapses in a pile of smoldering debris*.

OSAS Denier - If only they had believed that their belief is nonsense. They could have been saved.

:)

 

[Johann]

One problem

Which leads to another problem--
Divine Sovereignty: In Christian theology, God is often seen as all-powerful and all-knowing, meaning He has ultimate control over everything that happens. This includes the belief that God’s plans and purposes will ultimately be fulfilled.

Human Free Will: At the same time, the Bible emphasizes that humans have the ability to make choices. This is evident in many passages where people are called to choose between following God or going their own way (e.g., Deuteronomy 30:19).

Coexistence of Both:
The challenge is understanding how these two concepts can coexist. If God is sovereign and His will is always done, how can humans truly have free will?

This has been a topic of theological debate for centuries. ---you see this @Eternally Grateful?

Some theologians propose that God’s sovereignty includes His ability to allow human freedom, meaning He can achieve His purposes while still giving humans genuine choices.

Biblical Examples: There are instances in the Bible where God’s sovereignty and human choice intersect. For example, in the story of Joseph (Genesis 50:20), Joseph’s brothers’ actions were intended for harm, but God used them for good. This suggests that human actions, even when contrary to God’s desires, can still be woven into His sovereign plan.

Philosophical and Theological Perspectives: Different Christian traditions have various ways of reconciling these ideas. For instance,

Calvinism emphasizes God’s sovereignty more strongly, while Arminianism places a greater emphasis on human free will.

So which is it, God's sovereignty-free will-or both?

Did we "born again ourselves?--think not"

Now, we’re diving into a series of biblical concepts—God’s sovereignty and our free will—and exploring how they relate to each other., doctrine of election, chosen and if we had "a choice" in our born again experience--correct @Eternally Gratefu?l

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A little funny time:

OSAS Believer - I was once in unbelief but now I believe.

OSAS Denier - So you did not always believe?

OSAS Believer - No, I was once in unbelief, and my unbelief changed into belief, and now I am always saved and cannot be lost again, I cannot ever disbelieve once I am in belief.

OSAS Denier - I see, so your unbelief became belief?

OSAS Believer - Yes.

OSAS Denier - But you believe that belief cannot ever be changed to unbelief again?

OSAS Believer - Correct.

OSAS Denier - What about those persons who once believed as you (OSAS Believer) now do, but now are in unbelief?

OSAS Believer - They never actually believed.

OSAS Denier - Their unbelief never changed to belief?

OSAS Believer - That's correct.

OSAS Denier - What about the angels that sinned by disbelief but had begun in belief, or of Adam who began in belief but came to be in unbelief?

OSAS Believer - We are talking about salvation, not the original state of the angels or mankind.

OSAS Denier - No, we were talking about belief and unbelief and the fluidity or fixidity of the two states. So, the question if you please.

OSAS Believer - Belief cannot ever change into unbelief once a person believes from unbelief.

OSAS Denier - Why?

OSAS Beleiver - That's just the way it is.

OSAS Denier - It's a one way street? That belief may become unbelief, back to belief, but unbelief cannot become belief and go back to unbelief?

OSAS Believer - Correct.

OSAS Denier - How do you know those who once believed as the angels and Adam, which became unbelievers, were in a state of belief to begin with, since you say that those who claim the same now as once in belief, but now are in unbelief never were in belief to begin with?

OSAS Believer - SYNTAX ERROR ...

OSAS Denier - Ok, calm down, no worries, let me try another approach.

OSAS Believer - Rebooting ... loading ...

OSAS Denier - You stated that you were once in a state of unbelief, but now believe, and you believe that belief cannot ever become unbelief again, correct?

OSAS Believer - Correct.

OSAS Denier - How do you know that your belief in belief from out of unbelief cannot change to unbelief in belief from out of unbelief back to unbelief and be in the OSAS Denier position? Since that is not dealing with salvation, but the belief in the belief itself?

OSAS Believer - *sparks*, *smoke rising*, *whirly noises*, *logic loop* - finds only logic way out - I now beleive in the belief, though was once in unbelief in the belief, and belief in the belief cannot change back to unbelief in the belief once out of unbelief of the unbelief.

OSAS Denier - I see. Did the angels or mankind believe in the belief that belief cannot become unbelief in their original state of belief?

OSAS Believer - They must not have believed that belief cannot become unbelief, otherwise they could not have entered a state of unbelief from their state of belief if they had believed in the belief.

OSAS Denier - So, isn't salvation about returning to the original state of belief, from unbelief?

OSAS Believer - Yes.

OSAS Denier - You do not see the contradiction in your logic about the belief, and the belief of the belief?

OSAS Believer - Looks back at logic argument. *bluescreen*, *collapses in a pile of smoldering debris*.

OSAS Denier - If only they had believed that their belief is nonsense. They could have been saved.

:)

is this supposed to be funny or something?

it is so full of silly accusations and assumption its not even funny, nor does it add to the conversation.

Do you just place your trust in people without getting to know them? Without seeing if they are trustworthy, they are who they say they are. just blindly follow people?

Well neither do Gods children.. They do nto lose faith. because their faith was not misfounded or placed in a lie in the first place.


But hey, if you want to Mock Gods grace. and Gods trustworthyness, feel free.

The laugh will be on you on judgment day

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Which leads to another problem--
Divine Sovereignty: In Christian theology, God is often seen as all-powerful and all-knowing, meaning He has ultimate control over everything that happens. This includes the belief that God’s plans and purposes will ultimately be fulfilled.

Human Free Will: At the same time, the Bible emphasizes that humans have the ability to make choices. This is evident in many passages where people are called to choose between following God or going their own way (e.g., Deuteronomy 30:19).

Coexistence of Both:
The challenge is understanding how these two concepts can coexist. If God is sovereign and His will is always done, how can humans truly have free will?

This has been a topic of theological debate for centuries. ---you see this @Eternally Grateful?

Some theologians propose that God’s sovereignty includes His ability to allow human freedom, meaning He can achieve His purposes while still giving humans genuine choices.

Biblical Examples: There are instances in the Bible where God’s sovereignty and human choice intersect. For example, in the story of Joseph (Genesis 50:20), Joseph’s brothers’ actions were intended for harm, but God used them for good. This suggests that human actions, even when contrary to God’s desires, can still be woven into His sovereign plan.

Philosophical and Theological Perspectives: Different Christian traditions have various ways of reconciling these ideas. For instance,

Calvinism emphasizes God’s sovereignty more strongly, while Arminianism places a greater emphasis on human free will.

So which is it, God's sovereignty-free will-or both?

Did we "born again ourselves?--think not"

Now, we’re diving into a series of biblical concepts—God’s sovereignty and our free will—and exploring how they relate to each other., doctrine of election, chosen and if we had "a choice" in our born again experience--correct @Eternally Gratefu?l

I try not to get involved in calvin vs arminian. I would rather talk about the rest of us.

Gods soverignty and mankinds free will work in harmony

God chose Pharoah and put him in leadership/. Because in his foreknowledge, he knew exactly how Pharoah would act in every

God did not force pharoah to do anything (like the fatalist claims) God knows and puts people in charge he knows will do what he needs of their own free will Like Jonah


Thats how they work in unison.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 15:16 - “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”

Romans 8:29-30 - “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

Ephesians 1:4-5 - “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.”

1 Peter 2:9 - “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.”

Greek and Hebrew Grammar and Morphology
ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) - Greek for “chosen” or “elect.” This term is used in the New Testament to describe those who are chosen by God. For example, in Matthew 24:22, "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect (ἐκλεκτοί) those days will be cut short"1.

בָּחַר (bachar) - Hebrew for “choose” or “elect.” This term is used in the Old Testament. For example, in Deuteronomy 7:6, “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen (בָּחַר) you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.”

Jacob and Esau:
Romans 9:11-13 - “Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ Just as it is written: ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’”
This passage highlights God’s sovereign choice between Jacob and Esau, emphasizing that it was based on His purpose and not their actions.

Pharaoh:
Romans 9:17-18 - “For Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”
Here, God chose to harden Pharaoh’s heart to demonstrate His power and fulfill His purposes.

Israel and Other Nations:
Deuteronomy 7:6-8 - “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.”
God chose Israel as His special people, setting them apart from other nations.

Saul and David:
1 Samuel 16:1 - “The Lord said to Samuel, ‘How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.’”
God rejected Saul as king and chose David to replace him.

Jesus’ Disciples:
John 15:16 - “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”
Jesus chose His disciples for a specific purpose.

We can't deny that the doctrine of election is scriptural depends through what lenses we read it.

Johann
It's difficult for me to reply to the above post to me.
I was writing to another member that is reformed.
I don't understand, from your post, whether or not you're reformed.

Of course election is spoken of in the bible.
The question is this:

Do YOU believe that God CHOSE who will be saved and who will be lost?

This reformed theology is different than the belief that there is election by God.
I'd like to agree that we:
1. Understand the difference between ourselves
2. Whether or not your belief system is reformed.

 

[Johann]

Johann
It's difficult for me to reply to the above post to me.
I was writing to another member that is reformed.
I don't understand, from your post, whether or not you're reformed.

Of course election is spoken of in the bible.
The question is this:

Do YOU believe that God CHOSE who will be saved and who will be lost?

This reformed theology is different than the belief that there is election by God.
I'd like to agree that we:
1. Understand the difference between ourselves
2. Whether or not your belief system is reformed.

Just a loner in search of truth-rightly dividing the Scriptures-hopefully.
As to your question-no, I am not Reformed or Arminian @GodsGrace

So how do you understand the doctrine of election?

 

[GodsGrace]

Just a loner in search of truth-rightly dividing the Scriptures-hopefully.
As to your question-no, I am not Reformed or Arminian @GodsGrace

So how do you understand the doctrine of election?

You're correct that election is spoken of in both the OT and the NT.
The election is for a purpose....to achieve something that God wants to achieve.

For instance, God elected the Hebrew people through whom He would reveal Himself.
Perhaps because they were good story tellers and could remember stories from generations past.
Perhaps because they didn't even exist in the beginning when Abraham moved from Ur and He wanted to show
that He would make a people for Himself.

Predestination is also in the bible.
Some things were predestined.
Some events. Even the crucifixion of Jesus was predestined because God knew from the beginning that Adam would fail,
and that some kind of atonement would be necessary.

Predestination is also referred to in salvation economy, or soteriology, in the sense that we were, from the beginning, predestined as to HOW we would be saved. For instance, Ephesians 1:4 states that we were chosen before the foundation of the world to BE SAVED IN HIM.
IOW, the HOW we would be saved, known before the foundation of the world, would be IN JESUS.

It's always a how or a purpose.

God did not choose who would be saved and who would be lost.
This would take all the common sense readings out of the NT specifically.

I don't know who Arminius was, but I surely know who Calvin was because I've read a lot of his writings, and I've read one of the Confessions, and I can say with no doubt, that IF God is LOVING, MERCIFUL, and JUST....there is no way that He would choose that most of HIS most cherished creation (US) for whom He prepared an entire planet (Genesis) would go to hell and for no reason at all.

I think that if you're going to speak of election and predestination and do NOT want to fall into the reformed/calvinist camp,,,you should study a little on what those two terms mean in mainline Christianity....NOT in reformed theology.

 

[ReChoired]

is this supposed to be funny or something?

It's absolutely hilarious. Robots don't have a sense of humour though. Robots only repeat what they're told.

 

[Wynona]

OSAS debates are nostalgic but I don't miss them. Im just a cheerleader now...

Gooooo NoSAS! lol