OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[JLB]

You post error. Incessantly. And you know this. JLB, JPT, et al..


Same goes for you too, "Big Boy....".

Please point out the error in this post.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

 

[face2face]

@Johann

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5

You quoted correctly J.

Christ is a man, also the Son of David after the Flesh.

Would you like the word "man" removed?

F2F

 

[face2face]

I'm a OSAS believer and I say no. That kind of faith cannot save him. Key word "claims" to have faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Agree.

 

[Johann]

@Johann

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5

You quoted correctly J.

Christ is a man, also the Son of David after the Flesh.

Would you like the word "man" removed?

F2F

 

[Johann]

@Johann

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5

You quoted correctly J.

Christ is a man, also the Son of David after the Flesh.

Would you like the word "man" removed?

F2F

Remind me again why you don't believe in the Incarnation of Jesus?

 

[face2face]

You remind me of a slanderous lawyer who is out to win his case against OSAS believers at all costs. Whatever it takes!

Well, I'm pleased I remind you of something! Even the slanderous lawyers will hold your feet to the fire!

Not everyone who professes to be a disciple of Christ truly is His disciple.

Okay so we are back here again.

In John 8:31, we read - "So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, (demonstrative evidence) then you are truly disciples of Mine." Those who do not continue were not truly His disciples. In John 6:60-61, we see that many of Jesus' so-called disciples complained and were offended about what Jesus said in verses 51-59.

Correct - so am I right in saying you believe in OSAS with conditions?

These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says, "do not believe." (John 6:64) They also walked with Him no more. Now just because these so-called disciples may have believed in things about Jesus, does not mean they believed in Jesus unto salvation. It's the same with Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

You are going astray here mailman - the point has been made ex-believers will be rejected if they persist with the rejection. It's blasphemy of the HS. The idea that God cannot save which can be an active conscious decision or a lazy servant who does the minimum, hides his talent in the soil!

In regard to John 8:31-33, as we read on all the way through verse 59, where these Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God but were instead children of the devil.

The point has been made - you are not a pure OSAS believer, you appreciate one must remain in Christ and be genuinely faithful to be saved, whereas a pure OSAS believer would say, at the first time of their belief and the so called possession of the HS, they are saved regardless their walk.

There is a diiference.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Remind me again why you don't believe in the Incarnation of Jesus?

Well, firstly we have established tonight, that post Christ's glorification he is still the man Christ Jesus the Son of David after the flesh.

That is the Gospel taught by the Apostles (with Power Romans 1).

There are many other reasons, but those two are strong enough for now.

If I was a believer in your position, I would want to see the Lord Jesus Christ refer to himself as Yahweh (God) not just a manifestation of Him. I would want whole sections clearly showing 3n1 teaching.

Have you not read "we shall be like him?" 1 John 3:2

In no way will I be Christ, but I shall be like him (God Willing)

F2F

 

[Johann]

Well, firstly we have established tonight, that post Christ's glorification he is still the man Christ Jesus the Son of David after the flesh.

That is the Gospel taught by the Apostles (with Power Romans 1).

There are many other reasons, but those two are strong enough for now.

If I was a believer in your position, I would want to see the Lord Jesus Christ refer to himself as Yahweh (God) not just a manifestation of Him. I would want whole sections clearly showing 3n1 teaching.

Have you not read "we shall be like him?" 1 John 3:2

In no way will I be Christ, but I shall be like him (God Willing)

F2F

I don't want to discuss the Triune Godhead--I asked you to remind me again why you don't believe in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ?
I would be a Gnostic if I don't believe in the humanity of Messiah.

 

[face2face]

Yes. I'm not a believer in OSAS (except to the extent it is a tautology), but I think you nailed this one, my friend. James wasn't saying "Faith plus works." He was saying "faith that works."

Redfan, we all suffer from double mindedness and while James holds a very high ideal in chapter one he points out that no-one can tame the tougue, which is an interesting study in itself. What James is teaching is one must go to work on their faith before their faith will work for them. The responsiblity is on the believer to seek, prayer and ask for wisdom...which again speaks to the probationary nature of our walk.
F2F

 

[face2face]

I don't want to discuss the Triune Godhead--I asked you to remind me again why you don't believe in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ?
I would be a Gnostic if I don't believe in the humanity of Messiah.

I am unsure how you would given the weight of evidence concerning his condemned nature. I'm not sure how you are connecting Gnosticism with not believing in his humanity? Can you expand?

 

[Johann]

I am unsure how you would given the weight of evidence concerning his condemned nature. I'm not sure how you are connecting Gnosticism with not believing in his humanity? Can you expand?

Sure--

The Incarnation of Jesus Christ and Its Rejection by Gnosticism
Understanding the Incarnation
The Incarnation is the Christian belief that Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, took on human flesh. This doctrine asserts that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. The biblical basis for this includes:

John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Philippians 2:6-7: "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
Colossians 2:9: "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."

These verses affirm that Jesus, while remaining fully divine, took on human nature and lived among humanity.

Gnosticism and Its Views
Gnosticism was an early heretical movement that held several key beliefs contrary to orthodox Christianity, including:

Dualism: Gnostics believed in a strict separation between the spiritual and material worlds, viewing the material world as inherently evil and the spiritual as good.

Denial of the Incarnation: Because of their disdain for the material world, many Gnostics denied that a divine being could take on human flesh. They claimed that Jesus only appeared to be human (Docetism) or that the divine Christ inhabited the man Jesus temporarily.
The Connection Between Gnosticism and Denial of Jesus’ Humanity
Denial of Physical Reality: Gnostics viewed the material world as corrupt and unworthy of the divine. Therefore, the idea of God incarnating as a human was inconceivable to them. They either denied Jesus’ physical body or separated the divine Christ from the human Jesus.

Docetism: A significant Gnostic belief was Docetism, which posited that Jesus' physical body was an illusion. They argued that He only seemed to be human, rejecting the true humanity of Jesus.

The Importance of the Humanity of Christ
Salvation: According to Christian doctrine, Jesus' humanity is essential for salvation. As fully human, He could represent humanity and take upon Himself the sins of the world (Hebrews 2:14-17).

Resurrection: The physical resurrection of Jesus is a cornerstone of Christian faith. If Jesus was not truly human, His death and resurrection would be meaningless (1 Corinthians 15:12-22).

High Priesthood: Jesus’ humanity allows Him to sympathize with our weaknesses and serve as our High Priest, making intercession for us (Hebrews 4:14-16).

Summary
Rejecting the humanity of Christ aligns with Gnostic thought, which denies the goodness of the material world and the possibility of God becoming truly human. This perspective undermines core Christian doctrines, such as the Incarnation, atonement, and resurrection. The biblical evidence overwhelmingly supports the reality of Jesus' full humanity, which is indispensable for His role as Savior and Mediator.

In conclusion, understanding the full implications of the Incarnation helps guard against heresies like Gnosticism and affirms the foundational truths of the Christian faith. Jesus Christ, being fully God and fully man, bridges the gap between God and humanity, fulfilling the redemptive plan of salvation.

Now can you elaborate on my question to you? Not believing in the Incarnation of Messiah?

 

[face2face]

Sure--

The Incarnation of Jesus Christ and Its Rejection by Gnosticism
Understanding the Incarnation
The Incarnation is the Christian belief that Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, took on human flesh. This doctrine asserts that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. The biblical basis for this includes:

Are you of a sane mind J.

I don't want to discuss the Triune Godhead--I asked you to remind me again why you don't believe in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ?
I would be a Gnostic if I don't believe in the humanity of Messiah.

 

[Johann]

Are you of a sane mind J.

Absolutely--reread again.

 

[mailmandan]

Well, I'm pleased I remind you of something! Even the slanderous lawyers will hold your feet to the fire!

Okay so we are back here again.

Correct - so am I right in saying you believe in OSAS with conditions?

You are going astray here mailman - the point has been made ex-believers will be rejected if they persist with the rejection. It's blasphemy of the HS. The idea that God cannot save which can be an active conscious decision or a lazy servant who does the minimum, hides his talent in the soil!

The point has been made - you are not a pure OSAS believer, you appreciate one must remain in Christ and be genuinely faithful to be saved, whereas a pure OSAS believer would say, at the first time of their belief and the so called possession of the HS, they are saved regardless their walk.

There is a diiference.

F2F

Slander is still slander, regardless. Why are you so obsessed with conditions? It's not about faith + if but if confirms faith. Those who once professed to believe but later claim to no longer believe had a shallow, temporary belief that had no root.

The "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is mentioned in Mark 3:22-30 and Matthew 12:22-32. This case of "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 12:31 is a specific one. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees (who were not Christians), having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon "Beelzebub." (Matthew 12:24) Notice in Mark 3:30 that Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." They said, "He has an unclean spirit." These Pharisees were obviously not believers to commit this unpardonable sin. What is unpardonable for us today is the state of continued unbelief. (John 3:18)

Remaining in Christ along with genuine faithfulness is a confirmation that we are genuine believers. I don't teach that we can live like the devil all we want and no big deal, we are still saved. Those who live like the devil (regardless of their profession) demonstrate they are not born of God. (1 John 3:7-10) You seem really obsessed with the topic of OSAS. Why is that?

 

[face2face]

Absolutely--reread again.

I'm not reading your Platonic Doctines!

You are far from sane J.

You put up "For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus" - 1 Tim. 2:5

The Lord himself made it very clear Who is God

Jesus answered (Mark 12:29) - "The first of all the commandments is; Hear, O Israel, THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD."

Go back to your commentaries Johann where you find comfort in the bosom of your theologians. They love to talk about their four gods, three good ones and one evil one! Some parts of Chrisitiany today have five god! as the Roman Catholic Church, which has added a "Mother of God" who is in their system of belief the supreme deity beside a host of demi-gods, one for every day of the year (and more), all of which mythical and man-invented deities are worshipped and prayed to.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann and don't copy and paste your saved content at me! You know how I feel about that. If it's not from your geniune labouring in the Word, I dont want to read it.
Good night

 

[Johann]

I'm not reading your Platonic Doctines!

You are far from sane J.

You put up "For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus" - 1 Tim. 2:5

The Lord himself made it very clear Who is God

Jesus answered (Mark 12:29) - "The first of all the commandments is; Hear, O Israel, THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD."

Go back to your commentaries Johann where you find comfort in the bosom of your theologians. They love to talk about their four gods, three good ones and one evil one! Some parts of Chrisitiany today have five god! as the Roman Catholic Church, which has added a "Mother of God" who is in their system of belief the supreme deity beside a host of demi-gods, one for every day of the year (and more), all of which mythical and man-invented deities are worshipped and prayed to.

F2F

Rather, being filled. The growth of our Lord is here described as a natural human growth. The nature of the ‘Hypostatic Union’ of His Divine and Human nature—what is called the Perichoresis or Communicatio idiomatum—is one of the subtlest and least practical of mysteries. The attempt to define and enter into it was only forced upon the Church by the speculations of Oriental heretics who vainly tried “to soar into the secrets of the Deity on the waxen wings of the senses.” This verse (and still more Luk_2:52) is a stronghold against the Apollinarian heresy which held that in Jesus the Divine Logos took the place of the human soul. Against the four conflicting heresies of Anus, Apollinarius, Nestorius and Eutyches, which respectively denied the true Godhead, the perfect manhood, the indivisible union, and the entire distinctness of the Godhead and manhood in Christ, the Church, in the four great Councils of Nice (a. d. 325), Constantinople (a. d. 381), Ephesus (a. d. 431), and Chalcedon (a. d. 451), established the four words which declare her view of the nature of Christ—alethôs, teleôs, adiairetôs, asunchutôs—‘truly’ God; ‘perfectly’ Man; ‘indivisibly’ God-Man, ‘distinctly’ God and Man. See Hooker, Eccl. Pol. v. Leviticus 10.

Apollinarianism is an early Christological heresy named after Apollinaris of Laodicea, who proposed that in the person of Jesus Christ, the divine Logos (Word) took the place of the human soul or mind. This doctrine effectively denied the full humanity of Jesus, asserting that He had a human body and a sensitive soul (the seat of emotions and lower mental faculties) but not a rational human mind. Instead, the divine Logos performed the role of the rational soul.

Key Aspects of Apollinarianism
Replacement of the Human Mind: Apollinaris argued that the divine Logos replaced the human rational mind in Jesus. According to this view, Jesus was a composite being with a divine intellect and a human body, lacking a true human rational soul.
Motivation: Apollinaris was motivated by a desire to protect the unity of Christ’s person and to ensure that Christ’s divinity remained dominant and untainted by human weakness.
Impact on Soteriology: By denying Jesus a complete human nature, Apollinarianism compromised the doctrine of salvation. If Jesus did not possess a true human mind, He could not fully represent humanity in His redemptive work.
Orthodox Christian Response to Apollinarianism
The orthodox Christian response to Apollinarianism was to affirm that Jesus Christ possesses two complete natures, one divine and one human, in one person. The Council of Constantinople in 381 AD condemned Apollinarianism and reaffirmed the doctrine of the full humanity and full divinity of Jesus Christ.

Scriptural Basis for Refuting Apollinarianism
Jesus’ Human Mind and Will: Scripture provides clear evidence that Jesus had a human mind and will:

Luke 2:52: "And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man." This indicates Jesus grew and developed in wisdom, a function of a human mind.
Matthew 26:38: "Then he said to them, 'My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.'" Jesus expresses deep emotional distress, reflecting a fully human experience.
Mark 13:32: "But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." This verse suggests that Jesus, in His humanity, did not know the timing of His return, indicating a distinct human mind.
Complete Identification with Humanity: For Jesus to redeem humanity fully, He had to assume all aspects of human nature, including a rational soul:

Hebrews 2:17: "Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." This passage emphasizes that Jesus had to be fully human in every respect to serve as a true high priest.
Hebrews 4:15: "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin." Jesus experienced temptation and human weakness, which requires a complete human nature, including a rational mind.
Christological Definition: The Chalcedonian Definition (451 AD) articulated the doctrine of the two natures of Christ, countering Apollinarianism and other heresies:

"We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, of a rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father according to the divinity, and consubstantial with us according to the humanity; in all things like unto us, without sin."
Theological Implications
Integrity of the Incarnation: The doctrine of the Hypostatic Union maintains that Jesus is one person with two complete natures, divine and human. This means He has a human body, a human rational soul, and a divine nature. Apollinarianism, by denying Jesus a human rational soul, undermines the true nature of the Incarnation.
Redemptive Work: For Jesus’ sacrificial death to be effective for human salvation, He needed to assume the fullness of human nature. Only by being fully human could He stand in humanity’s place, bearing the full weight of human sin and providing a perfect atonement.
Empathy and Mediation: Jesus’ complete humanity allows Him to empathize fully with human experiences and struggles. His human mind and emotions enable Him to serve as a compassionate high priest, interceding effectively on behalf of humanity.
Conclusion
Apollinarianism, by denying the full humanity of Christ, poses a significant theological error. It compromises the doctrine of salvation and the nature of the Incarnation. The orthodox Christian response, grounded in Scripture and articulated in the ecumenical councils, affirms that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, possessing a complete human nature, including a rational soul. This affirmation ensures that Jesus can fully represent, empathize with, and redeem humanity, fulfilling His role as Savior and Mediator.

Praise Jesus this conversation has come to an end!

 

[face2face]

Remaining in Christ along with genuine faithfulness is a confirmation that we are genuine believers. I don't teach that we can live like the devil all we want and no big deal, we are still saved. Those who live like the devil (regardless of their profession) demonstrate they are not born of God. (1 John 3:7-10) You seem really obsessed with the topic of OSAS. Why is that?

That's enough mailman.
Thanks
F2F

 

[face2face]

in the four great Councils of Nice (a. d. 325), Constantinople (a. d. 381), Ephesus (a. d. 431), and Chalcedon (a. d. 451), established the four words which declare her view of the nature of Christ—alethôs, teleôs, adiairetôs, asunchutôs—‘truly’ God; ‘perfectly’ Man; ‘indivisibly’ God-Man, ‘distinctly’ God and Man. See Hooker, Eccl. Pol. v. Leviticus 10.

You can boast in the philosophies of men all you want J. You can copy and paste volumes of works all your life and still not know him.

 

[Johann]

You can boast in the philosophies of men all you want J. You can copy and paste volumes of works all your life and still not know him.

True--and the same can be said of you, not rightly dividing/cutting straight the Scriptures.

Have a good day.
J.