OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[face2face]

So how would an OSAS interpret the Master's Words here

10:32 “Whoever, then, acknowledges me before people, I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 10:33 But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven. Mt 10:32–33.

1. An act our your Will, or
2. Divinely forced

Are there Christians in the World today who believe in OSAS, but deny him?

Possible / Not Possible?

F2F

It seems to be those "if's" and "buts" which stand in the way of the OSAS believer @mailmandan

 

[Christian Soldier]

So you believe its not an act of your will?

Absolutely not, I thought that was obvious all along.

 

[face2face]

Absolutely not, I thought that was obvious all along.

Let's follow this through...

So if Christ expects you to acknowledge him before people, and you say this is not an act of your will, then whose act is it?

What Jesus is teaching there is the need for us to have this confidence (act of our own will) , if we remain faithful to our calling, otherwise we are not as important as sparrows!

The end is Matt 7:23

Let's assume you right; if you say God and Jesus are the ones to act in you - what of those who deny Jesus? Are you saying God is to blame for denying themselves?

You have some explaing to do!

F2F

 

[Christian Soldier]

So how would an OSAS interpret the Master's Words here

10:32 “Whoever, then, acknowledges me before people, I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 10:33 But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven. Mt 10:32–33.

1. An act our your Will, or
2. Divinely forced

Are there Christians in the World today who believe in OSAS, but deny him?

Possible / Not Possible?

F2F

It seems to be those "if's" and "buts" which stand in the way of the OSAS believer @mailmandan

Thanks for the easy questions.

The answer to the first question is self explanatory to those of us who embrace the whole counsel of God, which teaches that only born again believers acknowledge Him before people. Have you ever seen an atheist preaching the gospel on the street???....

Likewise, only unbelievers deny Him. Born again believers, never deny Him.

No man choses to believe, as an act of his will. God makes him willing and able to repent and to place his trust in the Lord and the Lord gives him the gift of faith and His Holy Spirit to keep him walking in the Spirit of God, that's how he abides in Him. It has nothing to do with his choice or his faith, it's all of the Lord from start to finish.

It's not possible for a Christian, who believes in OSAS to deny Him. Peter wasn't converted at the time he denied Christ thrice.

The "if's" and "buts", just mean "if" a pig could fly it would, "but" it doesn't because it can't.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Let's follow this through...

So if Christ expects you to acknowledge him before people, and you say this is not an act of your will, then whose act is it?

What Jesus is teaching there is the need for us to have this confidence (act of our own will) , if we remain faithful to our calling, otherwise we are not as important as sparrows!

The end is Matt 7:23

Let's assume you right; if you say God and Jesus are the ones to act in you - what of those who deny Jesus? Are you saying God is to blame for denying themselves?

You have some explaing to do!

F2F

Christ never said "I expect you to acknowledge Me", so I can't comment about things He didn't say.

I don't have confidence "faith" in Christ because I employ my willpower to remain faithful to our calling. He gives me the will to believe and to trust and to do His will. I can't take any credit for anything, because if I had it my way I would sink back into depravity, like a fish in water.

God is not to blame for anyone's denial of Him. The only reason many deny Him is because He hasn't done a work of regeneration in them. In other words, He has left them in their sin.

The free choice crowd always blame God for their sin and inability to believe in the true God of the Bible.

The truth is, nobody would be saved if God didn't choose to save some before He created the world. Because all have sinned, so if God just left everyone alone and offered salvation, not a single person would chose to accept His offer. Every one hates Him and loves their sin, and they are born dead in that state so that make sit impossible.

You question should be, why did God chose to save anyone at all

 

[face2face]

Thanks for the easy questions.

Let's see how you go...

The answer to the first question is self explanatory to those of us who embrace the whole counsel of God, which teaches that only born again believers acknowledge Him before people. Have you ever seen an atheist preaching the gospel on the street???....

How can someone who doesnt believe in, or know Christ, deny him, you're not making sense! Atheist's are not responsible to God, or Christ, end of story - maybe try again! In your answer you need to deal with the enlightened/ baptised believers who deny Christ.

Likewise, only unbelievers deny Him. Born again believers, never deny Him.

Matt 10 is speaking to those who know Christ and willingly deny him, you are not making any sense at all

No man choses to believe, as an act of his will. God makes him willing and able to repent and to place his trust in the Lord and the Lord gives him the gift of faith and His Holy Spirit to keep him walking in the Spirit of God, that's how he abides in Him. It has nothing to do with his choice or his faith, it's all of the Lord from start to finish.

On what basis do you think God forces people to believe and act?

It's not possible for a Christian, who believes in OSAS to deny Him. Peter wasn't converted at the time he denied Christ thrice.

The "if's" and "buts", just mean "if" a pig could fly it would, "but" it doesn't because it can't.

Wow, so the "if's" and "buts" in the Word hold no meaning or value for you at all? These are only there for people who will never know God or His Son?

@mailmandan I am sure you are reading this with the same disbelief I am - imagine mailman how far the OSAS doctrine has gone in Christian and the degree of blinders they must have. Imagine what else they are missing?

This is the very danger with this belief!

For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

You must know the Gospel first before you can decide not to obey, whether this is in the beginning, middle or end of life!! For Judas he walked with Christ for over three years before he made his choice and the others made theirs.

Staggering to see these comments and I am sure these are not standard OSAS beliefs...maybe an extreme version I think

F2F

 

[face2face]

Christ never said "I expect you to acknowledge Me", so I can't comment about things He didn't say.

 

[RedFan]

Peter wasn't converted at the time he denied Christ thrice.

I'm not sure how you are using "converted" here, but if Matt. 16:15-17 accurately records the facts, Peter met every test I can think of for "conversion" -- before his triple denial.

 

[Johann]

God is not a mediator between God and Man!

Disingenuous on your end--

Paul speaks of Jesus' human lineage (descended from David) and His divine sonship (declared to be the Son of God).
1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Was going to respond till I saw this--how you neatly twist the Scriptures.
J.

 

[RedFan]

Paul speaks of Jesus' human lineage (descended from David)

Is there some reason to believe that Mary was a descendant of David?

 

[Johann]

Is there some reason to believe that Mary was a descendant of David?

Genealogies in the Gospels: The Gospels of Matthew and Luke present genealogies of Jesus that trace His lineage back to David. While Matthew's genealogy (Matthew 1:1-17) is often associated with Joseph, Luke's genealogy (Luke 3:23-38) is sometimes considered to reflect Mary's lineage. Luke's account states that Jesus was "the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli," suggesting that Heli could be Mary's father. This interpretation implies that through Mary, Jesus inherits Davidic lineage.

Prophetic Fulfillment: Old Testament prophecies speak of the Messiah coming from the line of David (e.g., 2 Samuel 7:12-16; Isaiah 11:1-10; Jeremiah 23:5-6). To fulfill these prophecies, it is argued that Jesus, as the Messiah, must have Davidic ancestry. While Joseph, as a legal father, provides a legal claim, Mary's Davidic lineage would ensure a biological connection to David, fulfilling the messianic prophecies in their fullest sense.

Patristic Writings: Early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and Eusebius of Caesarea acknowledged and affirmed Mary's Davidic descent. Their writings reflect an early tradition that recognized Mary as part of David's lineage, supporting the claim from a historical and theological perspective.

Typological Interpretation: Some scholars and theologians view Mary's Davidic lineage through typological interpretation. Mary, as the mother of Jesus, embodies the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant, symbolizing the continuation and culmination of God's promises to David. This typology reinforces the notion that Mary must be of Davidic descent to complete the divine narrative.

Rabbinic Traditions: Some rabbinic traditions and Jewish texts suggest that maternal lineage was considered significant in establishing tribal affiliation and heritage. Although Jewish law primarily recognizes patrilineal descent, there are instances where matrilineal descent is acknowledged, especially in matters of tribal inheritance. This perspective supports the possibility of Mary's Davidic lineage being an accepted tradition.

While the New Testament does not explicitly state Mary's Davidic descent in a straightforward manner, these various lines of evidence—biblical genealogies, prophetic fulfillment, patristic writings, typological interpretations, and rabbinic traditions—collectively provide a substantial basis for the belief that Mary was a descendant of David. This belief not only aligns with the messianic expectations but also enriches the theological understanding of Jesus' fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.

Does it help @RedFan?

 

[RedFan]

Genealogies in the Gospels: The Gospels of Matthew and Luke present genealogies of Jesus that trace His lineage back to David. While Matthew's genealogy (Matthew 1:1-17) is often associated with Joseph, Luke's genealogy (Luke 3:23-38) is sometimes considered to reflect Mary's lineage. Luke's account states that Jesus was "the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli," suggesting that Heli could be Mary's father. This interpretation implies that through Mary, Jesus inherits Davidic lineage.

Prophetic Fulfillment: Old Testament prophecies speak of the Messiah coming from the line of David (e.g., 2 Samuel 7:12-16; Isaiah 11:1-10; Jeremiah 23:5-6). To fulfill these prophecies, it is argued that Jesus, as the Messiah, must have Davidic ancestry. While Joseph, as a legal father, provides a legal claim, Mary's Davidic lineage would ensure a biological connection to David, fulfilling the messianic prophecies in their fullest sense.

Patristic Writings: Early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and Eusebius of Caesarea acknowledged and affirmed Mary's Davidic descent. Their writings reflect an early tradition that recognized Mary as part of David's lineage, supporting the claim from a historical and theological perspective.

Typological Interpretation: Some scholars and theologians view Mary's Davidic lineage through typological interpretation. Mary, as the mother of Jesus, embodies the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant, symbolizing the continuation and culmination of God's promises to David. This typology reinforces the notion that Mary must be of Davidic descent to complete the divine narrative.

Rabbinic Traditions: Some rabbinic traditions and Jewish texts suggest that maternal lineage was considered significant in establishing tribal affiliation and heritage. Although Jewish law primarily recognizes patrilineal descent, there are instances where matrilineal descent is acknowledged, especially in matters of tribal inheritance. This perspective supports the possibility of Mary's Davidic lineage being an accepted tradition.

While the New Testament does not explicitly state Mary's Davidic descent in a straightforward manner, these various lines of evidence—biblical genealogies, prophetic fulfillment, patristic writings, typological interpretations, and rabbinic traditions—collectively provide a substantial basis for the belief that Mary was a descendant of David. This belief not only aligns with the messianic expectations but also enriches the theological understanding of Jesus' fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.

Does it help @RedFan?

That helps, thanks.

 

[mailmandan]

So how would an OSAS interpret the Master's Words here

10:32 “Whoever, then, acknowledges me before people, I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 10:33 But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven. Mt 10:32–33.

1. An act our your Will, or
2. Divinely forced

Are there Christians in the World today who believe in OSAS, but deny him?

Possible / Not Possible?

F2F

It seems to be those "if's" and "buts" which stand in the way of the OSAS believer @mailmandan

In regard to Matthew 10:32-33, in context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees do every chance they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him. (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6)

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial while having a weak moment as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisees and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23 but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

So, these if's and but's when properly understood bring confirmation and do not stand in the way of OSAS.

 

[mailmandan]

@Christian Soldier

2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him?
Jas 2:14.

The OSAS believer would say yes! James would say no!

Hence the need to remain / abide in Christ as an Act of Will on our part as the Works of God will come if you remain.

I'll go with the wisdom of James and Paul over those unbalanced believers in this forum

F2F

I'm a OSAS believer and I say no. That kind of faith cannot save him. Key word "claims" to have faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

 

[mailmandan]

OSAS preachers remind me of the spirit of those disciples in John 8

@mailmandan

“We are descendants of Abraham,” they replied, “and have never been anyone’s slaves! How can you say, ‘You will become free’?”
Jn 8:32–33.

Can see they lied in there collective pride!

You remind me of a slanderous lawyer who is out to win his case against OSAS believers at all costs. Whatever it takes!

Not everyone who professes to be a disciple of Christ truly is His disciple. In John 8:31, we read - "So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, (demonstrative evidence) then you are truly disciples of Mine." Those who do not continue were not truly His disciples. In John 6:60-61, we see that many of Jesus' so-called disciples complained and were offended about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says, "do not believe." (John 6:64) They also walked with Him no more. Now just because these so-called disciples may have believed in things about Jesus, does not mean they believed in Jesus unto salvation. It's the same with Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

In regard to John 8:31-33, as we read on all the way through verse 59, where these Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God but were instead children of the devil.

 

[RedFan]

I'm a OSAS believer and I say no. That kind of faith cannot save him. Key word "claims" to have faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Yes. I'm not a believer in OSAS (except to the extent it is a tautology), but I think you nailed this one, my friend. James wasn't saying "Faith plus works." He was saying "faith that works."

 

[Johann]

Yes. I'm not a believer in OSAS (except to the extent it is a tautology), but I think you nailed this one, my friend. James wasn't saying "Faith plus works." He was saying "faith that works."

 

[face2face]

Disingenuous on your end--

Paul speaks of Jesus' human lineage (descended from David) and His divine sonship (declared to be the Son of God).
1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Was going to respond till I saw this--how you neatly twist the Scriptures.
J.

You have quoted correctly! There is no god between God and Man...but the man Christ Jesus.

Out of inerest J. how do you deal with the Glorfied Christ still referring to himself as the Son of David?

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!” Rev 22:16.

Clearly your mascarade isn't continued well after his glorification?

How do you deal with the wood "root"?

He is the "root" of David because David's greatness stemmed from the divine purpose and promise to reveal Himself in a Redeemer (Isa. 11:1,10)

A shoot will grow out of Jesse’s root stock, a bud will sprout from his roots. Is 11:1.

At that time a root from Jesse will stand like a signal flag for the nations. Nations will look to him for guidance, and his residence will be majestic. Is 11:10.

You realise its the condemned line he still draws his title from?

concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh , Rom 1:3.

We are talking about the True Gospel J.

F2F

 

[Johann]

You have quoted correctly! There is no god between God and Man...but the man Christ Jesus.

 

[face2face]

In regard to Matthew 10:32-33, in context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees do every chance they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him. (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6)

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial while having a weak moment as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisees and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23 but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

So, these if's and but's when properly understood bring confirmation and do not stand in the way of OSAS.

Once again you manage not to overstep your line, which of course we know is not God's line. The red text is interesting as once again you can somehow discern the difference between those believers who give mere lip service, to those who are sincere.

How do you do this?

How does the holder of OSAS know if they are one, or the other, if both believe in OSAS? Effectively what you are saying is OSAS will help one but not the other.

Your method of exegesis allows you to place boundaries on the Word of God, which may, or may not be His boundaries.

But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

This is how I see OSAS -

You and I are in the Kingdom, and the weeds and tare; sheep and goats have all been separated and you look over to me and say "See! they were all saved!" after which, I say, but what of those 5 Virgins who had insufficient oil, they were rejected!...They believed in OSAS? To which you answer "Yes, well, they were never saved!"

Could it be that those who failed their faith could have confirmed it if they heeded the If's & But's?

I think I'm getting closer to the issue of OSAS in that somehow you stand in the foreknowledge of God, and you make His Judgements on His behalf, all the while holding the belief you have confirmed your faith through sincerity and not lip service.

One might say, you are able to search your own heart, and judge it knowing in the future God will judge and see it as you do.

It's different isn't it Mailman to the poor tax collector?

The tax collector, however, stood far off and would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, be merciful to me, sinner that I am! Lk 18:13.

This feeds into your above comment, however it is true that Yahweh (God) is close to all them that are of a broken heart” Psa 34:18, Isa 57:15-18

For innumerable dangers surround me. My sins overtake me so I am unable to see; they outnumber the hairs of my head so my strength fails me. Ps 40:12.

He didn't exalt himself (as one being saved), this is God's work to justify a believer, though we might not know who has a broken and contrite heart, maybe the one who appears to be giving lip service is struggling with an area of their life which God is working on, totally oblivous to you.

I can see how you are distracted by OSAS teaching. You have placed yourself in a difficult position. You are not the proud Pharisee though you are not the Tax Collector either.

F2F