OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[face2face]

I'm working through a lot of material, I really couldn't take on anymore. Apart from that, I only read commentaries from the worlds greatest and most respected Theologians and Bible Scholars.

This is where you will fall short I'm afraid.

I don't read the commentaries of those who appeal to their denominational views.

Again, the original Gospel as taught by the Apostles is unknown to the respected as you call them. This I hope you will see in time.

I don't believe there's a place for "deliverance ministries" in the Church and I don't believe there's a place for any extra biblical views and opinions. I start that thread prematurely now, and you can hopefully share what you've learned with us.

CC me in and lets see what happens! As long as you are willing to be challenged in your views all is good.
F2F

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I only read commentaries from the worlds greatest and most respected Theologians and Bible Scholars

That's the pathway to becoming deceived as most "scholars" are purveyors of false doctrine.

You would do FAR better to ask the Lord to lead and guide you in study of God's Word which is what Jesus intended.

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

This is where you will fall short I'm afraid.

No need to be afraid...

2 Timothy 1:7
God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

[face2face]

No need to be afraid...

2 Timothy 1:7
God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Correction of the poor use of the word "afraid" accepted.
F2F

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Correction of the poor use of the word "afraid" accepted.

Well, enjoy being afraid... real Christians go by what God says instead of what is acceptable to man.

 

[Christian Soldier]

No, you again you missed the mark! You failed to return with the humility that you were wrong in your post. Christ is "representative", which means he commands you follow his example in every way possible. Putting the flesh and its lust to death was his focus.
You need to take care in your responses.
F2F

I still don't believe that any dead man made himself alive and saved himself by his dead faith and kept himself saved to the end. Or that he followed Christ and put his flesh and it's lusts to death.

All of that goses against what scripture teaches abut being dead in trespasses and sin and "without me you can do nothing. God is not playing around with words, you either believe what He says or you don't. So far you refuse to accept any scripture which refutes Arminianism, and that's the problem.

 

[Christian Soldier]

That's the pathway to becoming deceived as most "scholars" are purveyors of false doctrine.

You would do FAR better to ask the Lord to lead and guide you in study of God's Word which is what Jesus intended.

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.




No need to be afraid...

2 Timothy 1:7
God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Your opinion denies Gods order, He appointed Shepherds to teach, guide and protect us dumb Sheep. Why do you reject what God ordained, you sound like a rouge Sheep which has left the safety of the herd and you're out there roaming around with the hungry lion. Your attitude towards Gods order very dangerous. This is what happens when you presume upon the Lord.

I know the Holy Ghost leads Gods Children into all truth, so why do you resist the work of the Holy Spirit and leave the body of Christ to be a rouge Sheep.

 

[mailmandan]

face2face said: So conditional then - not one time repentance and one time belief.

Past tense with ongoing present results.

Depends on what the Word God does in you - if you believe works are of man, and not God, then your starting position is wrong.

God does not do the works for us but God does work in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13) We are saved for good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6

Notice WILL bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. The good work in us will be (and not might or might not be) brought to completion. OSAS

So, we have a start and a finish / completion, a process which leads to salvation.

Salvation is not probation. There are 3 tenses to salvation that works-salvationists often confuse:
1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Later you will speak to the good soil - how many fruits?

It's not about how much fruit. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no fruit at all demonstrate they were not converted. Faith without works is dead, remember?

No, not in this life...as you have seen above, its a progressive work.

We will not reach sinless perfection in this life (1 John 1:8-10) but when we reach final sanctification or glorification.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, Phil 2:12

What does work out mean to you?

It does not mean work "for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not in order to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith.

In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

Peter can answer that:

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1

Peter was not teaching "type 2 works salvation" here. By cultivating the virtues listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, believers can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected -- bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being saved (FAITH) effect of being saved (FRUIT). Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10).

For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (vs. 8). For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins (vs. 9). What is the object of the forgetting? Is this forgetting temporary because this believer had fallen into error or does this lack of fruit exist because this person’s "cleansing" was merely an external reformation that did not come from a truly changed heart? The genuineness of their profession will be demonstrated as they express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. Romans 8:30 says, and those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. *All of them.

Has God finished this work in you mailman? What does make every effort mean to you? What does "For If" mean to you?

Not the work of final sanctification and we are not passive in the process. IF means a condition and a confirmation.

Have you mastered self control? Note the order is it important? And confirm you have applied your faith and life to add these virtues?...Through prayer, meditation, study and practicing righteousness?

I don't claim to have mastered all of these virtues flawlessly. I am a continued work in progress just as all believers are.

For you is it instantaneous?

Not for me or anyone else.

Catholicism is false to its core - there is not one teaching it holds which is truth. She is the mother of harlots.

Catholicism strongly opposes OSAS. Thank you for pointing out that there is not one teaching it holds which is truth.

Are you the forth ground?
How do you know?
Are fruits important to God from the understanding of this parable?

The seed took root in me several years ago and resulted in fruit. My faith was not a shallow, temporary belief that had no root, produced no fruit and withered away.

Allow me to show the conditions of this persons life and you tell me if "everyone" should believe OSAS?

You really do suffer from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome.

The forth soil “Brought forth” N.B. How fruit is the end of a process.

• “Hears” Matthew 13:23
• “Receive it” Mark 4:20
• “Understand it” Matthew 13:23
• “Keep it” Luke 8:15
• “Fruit with Patience” Luke 8:15.

In Luke 8:15 we are told they are “honest and of a good heart”

Who looks upon the heart? can you see in me 30 fold, 60, fold, 100 fold of fruitfulness to God?

In regard to the shallow ground hearer, notice his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

*IN CONTRAST TO Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with perseverance. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with perseverance.

*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It can't.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

face2face said: Only the entire life lived in faith can reveal these works of God - consider Isaac, the true seed, he reaped a hundred fold
Genesis 26:12. He lived by faith in faith that God would fulfill His Promise but was he to know he would produce such fruit to the Glory and Honour of God? Whose work was it?

How was Abraham justified (accounted as righteous)? By faith or by works? (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

How do you understand these words:

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2 Pe 1:10.

He goes onto say:

11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Pe 1:11.

Have you arrived at the blue text, or still working on the red text?

Once again, by cultivating the virtues listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, believers can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected -- bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Is there a reason why Peter said abundantly or richly supplied here?

Now, while I seek for the blue text in hope and faith, I am working diligently on the red text understanding God will lead me to salvation.

So, you have not yet reached salvation? You are not saved? Are you on probation hoping to obtain salvation based on your works?

My confidence in the blue text is no different to yours, however I am mindful "humility" is required to allow God to work in me. We are not saved - we are day by day "being" saved - that is the Biblical truth.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been (past tense with ongoing present results) saved through faith. John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Your argument about not being saved yet lines up with what Catholicism teaches.

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Co 15:1–2.

Those who truly believe the gospel hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached. Those who fail to hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached demonstrate that they believed in vain -- without cause or without effect, to no purpose. For the latter, believing the gospel was never firmly rooted and established from the start and such people are not saved and never were. Hence, they believed in vain. Continuing to hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached is the demonstrative evidence that we are true believers who have been saved and are presently saved. "IF" confirms this. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 is not in conflict with OSAS.

Christ taught this didn't he in Matthew 13 (the soils)?

Christ knows there are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Now, along the way can one who is being saved can take confidence in this process? Absolutely, would they say they are saved? And if they did, what would the Apostles say to that person?

Romans 8:16 - The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. What is the Spirit bearing witness to you?
1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Do you know that you have eternal life or are your fingers still crossed?

27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. 1 Co 9:27.

Disqualified for the prize. (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) Not disqualified for salvation. Salvation is a gift and not a prize.

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. 2 Ti 4:8.

Will all believers love His appearing and receive this crown?

For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you? 20 For you are our glory and joy.
1 Th 2:19–20.

Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. Re 2:10.

Revelation 2:10 is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there! *In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death.

4 And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory 1 Pe 5:3–4.

Amen! Numerous crowns mentioned in scripture. Jesus Himself will be wearing many crowns when He returns. (Revelation 19:12)

Thanks for the references and what is noteworthy concerning them!!

Unavoidable really.

I avoided none of the references. Roman Catholics cite the same scriptures you cite in their efforts to disprove OSAS as well. Hmm..

 

[mailmandan]

No eisegesis just scripture.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Jesus warns His disciples to remain In Him.

Here is how this same John instructs us to remain in Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

I already thoroughly refuted your eisegesis in post #297 and #300. You have no rebuttal. Just your repeated eisegesis.

 

[mailmandan]

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. - DESCRIPTIVE of unbelievers.

He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. - DESCRIPTIVE of believers.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you not realize JLB can never realize he is wrong?

Sadly there are many like this. Look at world history. Its not just a local thing, the pride of a man is unthinkable how deep and strong it can grow

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It did, and it was not taught by the early church

Those that believe OSAS are delusional cherry pickers that do not accept the whole counsel of God.

Yeah your right, we who believe in the full promises of God are cherry pikers. and do not accept the word. SMH

Put down your religion, and call out to God.. that is the best offer I can give you today

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's the pathway to becoming deceived as most "scholars" are purveyors of false doctrine.

You would do FAR better to ask the Lord to lead and guide you in study of God's Word which is what Jesus intended.

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.




No need to be afraid...

2 Timothy 1:7
God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

I would suggest you do the same thing, In fact, I would suggest both of you do this

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, enjoy being afraid... real Christians go by what God says instead of what is acceptable to man.

Yes, we do. and we are not afraid. Because we are confident of this one thing, that he who began a good work, WILL COMPLETE IT until the day of christ.

Unlike those who think salvation can be lost.. We are secure in our faith. Because God will not fail. We fail all the time, thats why we need grace and will until we get to heaven, But God will never fail

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How was Abraham justified (accounted as righteous)? By faith or by works? (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

Once again, by cultivating the virtues listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, believers can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected -- bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Is there a reason why Peter said abundantly or richly supplied here?

So, you have not yet reached salvation? You are not saved? Are you on probation hoping to obtain salvation based on your works?

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been (past tense with ongoing present results) saved through faith. John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Your argument about not being saved yet lines up with what Catholicism teaches.

Those who truly believe the gospel hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached. Those who fail to hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached demonstrate that they believed in vain -- without cause or without effect, to no purpose. For the latter, believing the gospel was never firmly rooted and established from the start and such people are not saved and never were. Hence, they believed in vain. Continuing to hold fast to the word/the gospel that Paul preached is the demonstrative evidence that we are true believers who have been saved and are presently saved. "IF" confirms this. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 is not in conflict with OSAS.

Christ knows there are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Romans 8:16 - The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. What is the Spirit bearing witness to you?
1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Do you know that you have eternal life or are your fingers still crossed?

Disqualified for the prize. (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) Not disqualified for salvation. Salvation is a gift and not a prize.

Will all believers love His appearing and receive this crown?

Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Revelation 2:10 is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works! The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there! *In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death.

Amen! Numerous crowns mentioned in scripture. Jesus Himself will be wearing many crowns when He returns. (Revelation 19:12)

I avoided none of the references. Roman Catholics cite the same scriptures you cite in their efforts to disprove OSAS as well. Hmm..

Its said, so many do not have faith that God will complete what he started in us.

Yet they tell us they have faith in God?? NOT!!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. - DESCRIPTIVE of unbelievers.

He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. - DESCRIPTIVE of believers.

He did not even quote 1 John 1: 9 correctly.. what a joke

 

[face2face]

Well, enjoy being afraid... real Christians go by what God says instead of what is acceptable to man.

I'm not sure what country you are from but maybe you dont use such colloquialism's there?

 

[face2face]

I still don't believe that any dead man made himself alive and saved himself

Are you referring to Jesus here?

 

[face2face]

Past tense with ongoing present results.

Ongoing you say? Sounds like you're leaning toward probation?

God does not do the works for us but God does work in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13) We are saved for good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Correct, so you also believe the works and fruits (if fruits) are of God - well that's progress!

Notice WILL bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. The good work in us will be (and not might or might not be) brought to completion. OSAS

I had to stop replying!

It's like you are pushing a square through a round hole and no matter how hard you try, it wont fit.

If you are going to twist and wrest every section of Scripture to fit your OSAS - why are we having this discussion? It's meaningless! I could show you undeniable evidence and it still wouldn't be received. We know what's taken place here...you have taken an idea, a man-made doctrine and due to its attractive offering latched onto it with all your might. In the Scripture that is called "being deceived". You & I both know it's within God's Sovereignty to extend the gift or to withdraw it. There will be people He saves, who you & I might disagree with Him saving, and then He might reject others we think should be saved! You are not God mailman, nor do you know His mind, or how He extends mercy.

I'm pleased you have confidence in your salvation, however I also know and accept that not only does man frustrate the Grace of God (Gal 2:22) many Christians live in sin. Here is the problem with your doctrine! The teaching of OSAS, if he is rejected is proven false and all those warnings which you apply your mental gymnastics on are the warnings they needed to heed. It's for this reason I am anti-OSAS and you should temper your confidence and balance it with godly wisdom and the gentle rebuke, otherwise your conversation with the Lord might not go as well as you had hoped.

F2F

 

[BlessedPeace]

He did not even quote 1 John 1: 9 correctly.. what a joke

I don't think it is a joke. I think it a travesty.

Satanic Eisegesis enters here and other Christian communities in order to lie,disrupt the peace,and deceive sincere seekers who feel the call of God in their hearts.

1John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
(Refers to all people in their natural mind,worldly consciousness. Because those are to whom this sermon is addressed.)

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
(Refers to those who are redeemed in Christ. Washed clean regenerated,their Sins forgiven . God remembers them no more. Those in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. Those who do son do not know Christ and He never knew them. 1John 3)

10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
(An introspection. One that reiterates verse 8 so to let us know why we now understand our former natural mind worldly state. Because we are now indwelt by Holy Spirit/God. And as such we understand the things of God that before was thought to be foolishness. 1 Corinthians 2. "His word is not in us." Refers back to John 1 )